Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

For those that don't believe the police can and do elicit false statements from innocent people.

The victim of the Lynnwood attack last week filed a federal civil-rights lawsuit against the city of Lynnwood, claiming detectives disregarded evidence of the assault, bullied her into saying it didn’t happen and then threatened to have her thrown out of her apartment when she insisted it did. Also named in the suit are Rittgarn, Mason and Lynnwood Police Chief Steven J. Jensen.

The woman, identified in the lawsuit by the initials D.M., says she was forced to undergo counseling when Lynnwood police told managers of the at-risk youth program where she was living in 2008 that they didn’t believe she’d been raped, according to court documents.

The lawsuit alleges that the woman was required to stand up in front of other program participants and say that she had lied about being raped or risk being evicted, according to the lawsuit.

D.M.’s lawsuit also names as defendants the agency that runs the program, Cocoon House, and two of its employees.

In a statement, Cocoon House CEO Cassie Franklin said “our hearts go out to D.M. and her family ... We strongly believe that Cocoon House and its employees acted appropriately on behalf of the client.”

Jensen, the Lynnwood police chief, said he could not comment because of the litigation.

Rittgarn, who has left the Lynnwood Police Department and works as a private investigator in San Diego, said he was unaware of the lawsuit. At first he could not recall the case, except that he thought it involved “that guy from Colorado.”

Mason is still with the Lynnwood Police Department.

D.M., who now lives in Wyoming, declined to comment for this story, said her attorney, H. Richmond Fisher.

According to the suit, Rittgarn and Mason had D.M. charged with making a false report in Lynnwood Municipal Court when she tried to take back a statement in which she had recanted her story of being raped. The woman claims she signed that statement under duress after having been questioned for hours without an attorney.

 

[Grinder]

This is good stuff. There's surely a book in there somewhere.

Working on it and I know at least 2 sales guaranteed

 

[anglolawyer]

Working on it and I know at least 2 sales guaranteed

Call it Through the Looking Glass.

Changing the subject, I am dismayed that you, Grinder, have not come up with a news article for 17 Dec 2007 to corroborate Dan's time travel piece from the Mirror. It's all very well lolling about on that yacht but when there's work to be done one must keep a sense of priority.

 

[Grinder]

Call it Through the Looking Glass.

Changing the subject, I am dismayed that you, Grinder, have not come up with a news article for 17 Dec 2007 to corroborate Dan's time travel piece from the Mirror. It's all very well lolling about on that yacht but when there's work to be done one must keep a sense of priority.

Remind me.

 

[anglolawyer]

Remind me.

Dan O. linked an article published online by the Daily Mirror on 17 Dec 2007 saying the cops had found Rudy's DNA on the bra clasp. But, as we all know, the clasp was not recovered until the next day and was not tested for a couple of weeks. So something is up.

 

[Bob001]

For those that don't believe the police can and do elicit false statements from innocent people. [/I]

I don't think any reasonable person has any doubt that the police can elicit false confessions. The Innocence Project says that in a quarter of the cases where defendants were exonerated by DNA, they had confessed or even pled guilty. If the cops are telling you that they can prove you did it and you must have blacked out from the shock, it's hard to fight back. "I didn't black out!" "But if you did, you wouldn't remember, right?" "Well, yes, but..." "No buts. That's what happened. We know it. We want to help you. But we can't help you if you don't admit the truth." Etc., etc., etc. for hours on end.

The other thing that seems to happen is that a suspect will say anything to get out of the interrogation room, where he might feel or actually be threatened, with the idea that he'll take it all back as soon as he has the chance. He doesn't fully understand that confessions are forever.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

 

[Grinder]

Bob I'd say this is more than a false confession. This is a case where the police talked a victim into saying she wasn't raped when they had evidence from the hospital and DNA.

Many of the PGP seem to be unable to grasp some basics including that the police do this sort of thing routinely.

They actually make the case that Amanda confessed to things Amanda could only know if she were there, completely ignoring that the police did know what had happened and pushed her until she told them what they knew to be correct.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bob I'd say this is more than a false confession. This is a case where the police talked a victim into saying she wasn't raped when they had evidence from the hospital and DNA.

Many of the PGP seem to be unable to grasp some basics including that the police do this sort of thing routinely.

They actually make the case that Amanda confessed to things Amanda could only know if she were there, completely ignoring that the police did know what had happened and pushed her until she told them what they knew to be correct.

This is more than, "they do it routinely". The whole purpose of an interrogation IS PRECISELY TO GET THE SUBJECT TO ADMIT TO WHAT THE COPS ALREADY KNOW!

It's the sole purpose of interrogation. Some details vary.... a very confident policeperson will actually turn on the videotape and allow the subject's lawyer into the room. Any lawyer, though, worth their salt will bring a large roll of duct tape and wrap it around the subject's mouth four or five times, always careful not to cover the nostrils.... lest the videotape actually be the recording of a separate crime.

Look on YouTube for the Russell Williams interrogation conducted by Sgt. Jim Smyth. Smyth spent 10 hours with the former-colonel with the sole goal of getting the b****** to confess. Smyth played Williams like a fiddle, and of course in that case Williams was guilty as sin.

The former colonel had also served in Afghanistan and as a high ranking Nato soldier had received anti-interrogation/anti-torture training.

Smyth went through that training like a hot knife through butter....

At the end Williams was singing like a canary.

The problem comes when, like most guilters in the Knox/Sollecito case, they come to it convinced of guilt... and wonder why a virtual teenager, with no anti-torture training, caves in.

 

[codyjuneau]

I don't think any reasonable person has any doubt that the police can elicit false confessions. The Innocence Project says that in a quarter of the cases where defendants were exonerated by DNA, they had confessed or even pled guilty. If the cops are telling you that they can prove you did it and you must have blacked out from the shock, it's hard to fight back. "I didn't black out!" "But if you did, you wouldn't remember, right?" "Well, yes, but..." "No buts. That's what happened. We know it. We want to help you. But we can't help you if you don't admit the truth." Etc., etc., etc. for hours on end.

The other thing that seems to happen is that a suspect will say anything to get out of the interrogation room, where he might feel or actually be threatened, with the idea that he'll take it all back as soon as he has the chance. He doesn't fully understand that confessions are forever.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

.
When people are in discomfort they commonly choose a harmful short term solution, rather than a prudent long term solution.

Examples are everywhere: smokers, alcoholics, drug addicts, obese people, and more.

 

[Grinder]

.
When people are in discomfort they commonly choose a harmful short term solution, rather than a prudent long term solution.

Examples are everywhere: smokers, alcoholics, drug addicts, obese people, and more.

Hey no personal attacks

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Dan O. linked an article published online by the Daily Mirror on 17 Dec 2007 saying the cops had found Rudy's DNA on the bra clasp. But, as we all know, the clasp was not recovered until the next day and was not tested for a couple of weeks. So something is up.

The simplest explanation is that something got lost (or found) in translation, and that what the cops actually said was that they found Rudy's DNA on the bra, or said they found it on the bra near the clasp, or something like that, and the Mail got it slightly wrong.

If Stefanoni had never claimed to find anything on the bra clasp then that would be most people's explanation for this oddity, I imagine. It's only with hindsight given what we now know that it looks weirder than that.

 

[codyjuneau]

Hey no personal attacks

.
Sorry Grinder.

How many hits did I get?

 

[JREF2010]

For those that don't believe the police can and do elicit false statements from innocent people.

The victim of the Lynnwood attack last week filed a federal civil-rights lawsuit against the city of Lynnwood, claiming detectives disregarded evidence of the assault, bullied her into saying it didn’t happen and then threatened to have her thrown out of her apartment when she insisted it did. Also named in the suit are Rittgarn, Mason and Lynnwood Police Chief Steven J. Jensen.

The woman, identified in the lawsuit by the initials D.M., says she was forced to undergo counseling when Lynnwood police told managers of the at-risk youth program where she was living in 2008 that they didn’t believe she’d been raped, according to court documents.

The lawsuit alleges that the woman was required to stand up in front of other program participants and say that she had lied about being raped or risk being evicted, according to the lawsuit.

D.M.’s lawsuit also names as defendants the agency that runs the program, Cocoon House, and two of its employees.

In a statement, Cocoon House CEO Cassie Franklin said “our hearts go out to D.M. and her family ... We strongly believe that Cocoon House and its employees acted appropriately on behalf of the client.”

Jensen, the Lynnwood police chief, said he could not comment because of the litigation.

Rittgarn, who has left the Lynnwood Police Department and works as a private investigator in San Diego, said he was unaware of the lawsuit. At first he could not recall the case, except that he thought it involved “that guy from Colorado.”

Mason is still with the Lynnwood Police Department.

D.M., who now lives in Wyoming, declined to comment for this story, said her attorney, H. Richmond Fisher.

According to the suit, Rittgarn and Mason had D.M. charged with making a false report in Lynnwood Municipal Court when she tried to take back a statement in which she had recanted her story of being raped. The woman claims she signed that statement under duress after having been questioned for hours without an attorney.

This is similar to the movie The Thin Blue Line, if you haven't seen it, you might like it. True story...

The most interesting, imo, in relate to this case is the part on the confession and how it was coerced. And for this ending the actual murderer told the films he lied about the whole thing and admitted he did it, and he blamed the innocent person and the police built the case and imprisoned the wrong person.

 

[anglolawyer]

The simplest explanation is that something got lost (or found) in translation, and that what the cops actually said was that they found Rudy's DNA on the bra, or said they found it on the bra near the clasp, or something like that, and the Mail got it slightly wrong.

If Stefanoni had never claimed to find anything on the bra clasp then that would be most people's explanation for this oddity, I imagine. It's only with hindsight given what we now know that it looks weirder than that.

I am looking into it and will revert in due course.

 

[Grinder]

These are two posts by JOH that the PGP use as their "proof" that Amanda was into nasty pranks, wearing ski masks and other behavior:

One of my co-workers shared a room with her before she ran off to Italy, and now he sleeps on the bed she gave him when she left. I told him he should put it on ebay and proclaim it is the site of "a hundred terrible sex acts". Gotta be worth millions.
Posted by Joh | November 14, 2007 4:39 PM

Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke. She's guilty and *********** nuts.
Posted by Joh | December 2, 2007 2:50 PM

These two posts are the sole source for the PGP's thousands of posts about their various prank theories.

Unfortunately the link no longer works but it used to go to his MySpace page, which me the impression of a guy not of an older age than Amanda who played video games such as D&D.

ETA - AFAIK she never lived in an apartment and her last residence was definitely a house.

 

[Kaosium]

These are two posts by JOH that the PGP use as their "proof" that Amanda was into nasty pranks, wearing ski masks and other behavior:

One of my co-workers shared a room with her before she ran off to Italy, and now he sleeps on the bed she gave him when she left. I told him he should put it on ebay and proclaim it is the site of "a hundred terrible sex acts". Gotta be worth millions.
Posted by Joh | November 14, 2007 4:39 PM

Knox once got a bunch of her friends to dress up in ski masks and break into her apartment and assault her roomates as an "april fools" joke. She's guilty and *********** nuts.
Posted by Joh | December 2, 2007 2:50 PM

These two posts are the sole source for the PGP's thousands of posts about their various prank theories.

Unfortunately the link no longer works but it used to go to his MySpace page, which me the impression of a guy not of an older age than Amanda who played video games such as D&D.

ETA - AFAIK she never lived in an apartment and her last residence was definitely a house.

I was going to correct you on that MySpace page not working, because it just so happens I had visited it yesterday or the day before, but it turns out you're right! That Myspace page was taken down in the last day or so. I recall when I looked at it that it hadn't been updated since 2009, so it seemed to be abandoned, I wonder what caused him to take it down in the last day or so?

At any rate here's the latest archive of it from the Wayback machine from 2009.

 

[anglolawyer]

Who or what is JOH?

 

[Kaosium]

Who or what is JOH?

He is the sole genesis of the 'rape prank theory.' He posted the message Grinder quoted above (note it says nothing about rape) on a comments section in 2007 and The Cheshire Cat (PG) contacted him and said she 'verified' it.

Then the tale grew in the telling....

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I assume it is the initials of the person posting.

 

[anglolawyer]

He is the sole genesis of the 'rape prank theory.' He posted the message Grinder quoted above (note it says nothing about rape) on a comments section in 2007 and The Cheshire Cat (PG) contacted him and said she 'verified' it.

Then the tale grew in the telling....

Thanks. Good job someone reliable and independent followed it up.