Looking for Skeptics

[Hokulele]

I didn't say the spirit couldn't read. They see cards clearly.
I carried out a test earlier, to see if they could see cards that I couldn't see. They didn't even guess. They just said they can't do that sort of trick. They can clearly be distinguished by replying to conversation.

I have been honest throughout, and have accepted the blind judgement (understandably) But it takes just one of you to check it out and see exactly how it is. Then we know what we're dealing with? work out a protocol to test spirits. They speak like us, its really not as complicated as you all think.

The message tonight loud & clear (Deep voice) "Don't refuse the competition" I played it over the landline, its loud, its recognisable, its obvious, because they speak like us.

Ask them if they can speak languages other than English. If so, there is still a basis for a reasonable test.

 

[AdMan]

The message tonight loud & clear (Deep voice) "Don't refuse the competition" I played it over the landline, its loud, its recognisable, its obvious, because they speak like us.

Apparently Deep Voice isn't being very honest, because the spirits don't appear willing to do very much to prove they actually exist.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I didn't say the spirit couldn't read. They see cards clearly.
I carried out a test earlier, to see if they could see cards that I couldn't see. They didn't even guess. They just said they can't do that sort of trick.

So they can see cards that you can see, but can't see cards that you can't see.

Do you think they can see cards that someone other than you can see?

Have you asked them how they see things in the non-spirit world? That might make this a lot simpler than a lot of guessing.

 

[Cassidy]

I've had a think. Alderbank has kindly offered £100 to the Diabetes Charity. It really is a pity that they should lose out because of protocol. So what say I donate that to Alderbank's chosen Charity, if Alderbank goes home unconvinced? Call it a bit of fun, and no protocol necessary. Let me know what you think ?

 

[Cassidy]

There is no way for a poster to close a thread.
Moderators can close threads if the thread breaks down into endless bickering, name calling, and insults.

I wanted to make sure you got a direct and complete answer to your question because I do not want you to think we are rude enough to ignore your questions.

Thank u for that.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I didn't say the spirit couldn't read. They see cards clearly.
I carried out a test earlier, to see if they could see cards that I couldn't see. They didn't even guess. They just said they can't do that sort of trick. They can clearly be distinguished by replying to conversation.

What if someone were to tell them the card number & suit privately?

Could they tell you the card number & suit later?

 

[Foolmewunz]

Flaccon,
I think you need to understand how the protocol was arrived at and how all protocols are arrived at.
A claimant makes a statement - a claim. The spirits can do X. I can do Y. Whatever.

We then try to devise a protocol that could prove that statement AND THE CLAIMANT AGREES THAT IT IS ACCEPTABLE AND THAT THEY OR THEIR SPIRITS CAN PASS THAT TEST.... or it does not proceed.

Ergo, the cards-in-a-pillow case or any variation of cards is not necessarily "the protocol here" as you refer to it.

If you can make a clear claim as to what the spirits can do and do do regularly, then let's try to devise another protocol, one they say they can nail over and over, and come up with what you and the spirits agree is a fair test.

Protocols are commonly devised this way. WE do not define what the spirits can do They do/you do. Tell us what they can do and let's devise a way that you agree we can actually prove that ability. The above protocols were worked out with your agreement. They are not carved in stone as "The Protocol". They were an attempt to guide ourselves by previously successful (as in "agreed to", not as in "proved paranormal") tests.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

What I think is that making little bets on side issues is a waste of time. If spirit voices were real it would be earth shattering news. Also, proving it could win you huge cash prizes.

Forget about the irrelevant stuff and please concentrate your efforts on devising a simple proof of the existence of intelligent agents behind the voices you say you hear.

 

[Cassidy]

So they can see cards that you can see, but can't see cards that you can't see.

Do you think they can see cards that someone other than you can see?

Have you asked them how they see things in the non-spirit world? That might make this a lot simpler than a lot of guessing.

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

 

[Alderbank]

They can clearly be distinguished by replying to conversation.

This sounds like a new claim. I am imagining it as being like Siri, or like another person at the end of a phone line.

 

[Cassidy]

What I think is that making little bets on side issues is a waste of time. If spirit voices were real it would be earth shattering news. Also, proving it could win you huge cash prizes.

Forget about the irrelevant stuff and please concentrate your efforts on devising a simple proof of the existence of intelligent agents behind the voices you say you hear.

It's not a bet, it's a Charity thing. It's really not irrelevant. Spirit voices are real, it is earth shattering, all prizes to Charity.

The only way to prove it is take a look, it is that simple. All that can come from this is a big positive for the common people. The world is full of sick-mindedness, and we are the ones that suffer. This is it, our time to turn the tables on the sick illusions we've been dragged into. Believe this or not.

I have nothing at all to lose with temporary dis-belief, truth is truth whatever the protocol.

 

[Cassidy]

This sounds like a new claim. I am imagining it as being like Siri, or like another person at the end of a phone line.

It is like listening in to a canteen full of people, but the closer ones are heard.
It isn't a new claim, its still the same claim.

 

[Foolmewunz]

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

See my post above re protocol.

If this is the claim, then let's devise a way to test it that you and the spirits and the skeptics all agree would be fair proof.

The problem with this claim is that it probably requires the assistance of both a conjurer and a technician during the test and in devising the protocols.

The areas of concern would be ventriloquism or some sort of technical gimmickry. I'd imagine ventriloquism could be ruled out by micing Flaccon around the area of the larynx. Technical skullduggery would require someone with more chops in that area than I have.

 

[jsfisher]

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

Once they see the card through your eyes, they can then relay an unambiguous message to identify the card? If so, then a test with cards is still possible. We will require the services of one other person, though. This would be one of your witnesses that has heard what you hear on the recordings.

You view a card; the spirits see it too; your witness/ally/friend names the card based on what is heard in the recording playback. Even better: A minor variation. You listen to the playback first, in private, and decide if the spirits identify the concealed card. If there, you summons the friend to come listen in private (you must not be anywhere nearby) and identify the card.

You should test this yourself, just you and the friend.

ETA: If it seems to work for the two of you, perhaps Alderbank would consider scheduling a visit to proctor a test.

 

[Alderbank]

I've had a think. Alderbank has kindly offered £100 to the Diabetes Charity. It really is a pity that they should lose out because of protocol. So what say I donate that to Alderbank's chosen Charity, if Alderbank goes home unconvinced? Call it a bit of fun, and no protocol necessary. Let me know what you think ?

With hindsight I think that created an adversarial feeling with winners and losers in opposite camps, which was not helpful. We are all alike in wanting to discover more about this wonderful world we live in. We would all see it as a success to confirm the existence of flaccon's spirits

 

[Biscuit]

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

Do they know, think, feel, see, or experience anything that you do not know, think, feel, see, or experience? If yes please be very specific.

We can't test them for knowledge that you already have.

 

[AdMan]

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

So there's no way for them to know something that you don't know? And you're the one who deciphers what they're saying?

How surprising.

 

[jsfisher]

The problem with this claim is that it probably requires the assistance of both a conjurer and a technician during the test and in devising the protocols.

The areas of concern would be ventriloquism or some sort of technical gimmickry. I'd imagine ventriloquism could be ruled out by micing Flaccon around the area of the larynx. Technical skullduggery would require someone with more chops in that area than I have.

These are real concerns for a real test. I think that is still a ways off. A more informal process should be sufficient for now.

 

[Cassidy]

Once they see the card through your eyes, they can then relay an unambiguous message to identify the card? If so, then a test with cards is still possible. We will require the services of one other person, though. This would be one of your witnesses that has heard what you hear on the recordings.

You view a card; the spirits see it too; your witness/ally/friend names the card based on what is heard in the recording playback. Even better: A minor variation. You listen to the playback first, in private, and decide if the spirits identify the concealed card. If there, you summons the friend to come listen in private (you must not be anywhere nearby) and identify the card.

You should test this yourself, just you and the friend.

ETA: If it seems to work for the two of you, perhaps Alderbank would consider scheduling a visit to proctor a test.

That's very good yes. Before that can happen, the participant/s only needs to familiarise her/himself to know how different spirit voices sound. I think by the time the participant has familiarised her/himself, they will know what to expect

(Victory

 

[Stray Cat]

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit. They taste everything the person tastes. I don't know about your question, but when they do see the card (through my eyes) they repeat it. Sometimes they might repeat a few times to make sure its heard.

I know some people are giving up trying to develop a test protocol, but these things always take a lot of discussion and amendment. Think about the process that scientists have to go through to test for the most mundane things.

Flaccon: I'm sorry that you are coming up against these problems when you only seem to wish to get the spirits message out. I hope I may have found a way to demonstrate this still using the playing cards, so please focus for a minute and please try to answer my question as accurately as possible.

If Alderbank listens to your recordings will he unmistakeably hear the exact same words that you hear?

If so, then the simplest test bearing in mind tonight's new information about what the spirits can and can not do is for you to pick a random card and look at it, then ask the spirits what card you're looking at. Don't allow Alderbank to see the card and do not give any verbal or visual clues as to what it is. Then place the card face down (still without Alderbank seeing it).

Now Alderbank should be able to listen to the audio file and hear the spirits unmistakeably call out the name of the card.

Only after Alderbank has written down what the spirits have unmistakeably said will the card be turned over to see if it's correct.

Repeat as many times as you wish.

As you've already said that the spirits know the names of the cards, they can shout them out and that they can see cards when you see them and that other people can unmistakeably hear clear voices and full sentences in the audio files, I'd be really interested to know if you think doing the test this way around would work.

Thanks.


For everyone else, Yes I know there are still holes in this idea and it would need developing further for more strict testing, but I'm just trying to explore every possible way to give Flaccon every possible chance to test this objectively, so I'm just running with what Flaccon has said about what the spirits can and can not do.