Looking for Skeptics

[Alderbank]

Fresh recordings could work as a very, very simple first test. Make 10 fresh recordings, while Alderbank is present. Listen to each several times while remaining absolutely silent. You and Alderbank both write down what you think you hear, while not letting each other see your answers. If 7 or more out of 10 of the phrases that you both write down match, then that counts as a successful test. If you speak, make any noise, try to look at Alderbank's answers, or try to show him yours, or less than 7 answers match, then that counts as a failure.

Agreed?

I am sure I'm being stupid but I can't figure out what this would show if it is a success, Squeegee.

flaccon makes and plays back a number of recordings of what many consider to be white noise from a high gain amp with some RF breakthrough. We are both native English speakers and pareidolia leads us both to fill in the gaps in the same way. For instance, it is likely that we would both hear 'cat' or 'ship'. So what?

The claim being tested is something like 'Spirits exist and these are their voices'.

Also this test is far too subjective. At best it seems a test of how good my hearing and judgement is.

Have I misunderstood?

 

[Dumb All Over]

flaccon, is it your intention to apply for Mr. Randi's Million Dollar Challenge?

Hello flaccon,

My small, insignificant question above seems to have gotten lost amongst the fodder of everything else going on in this thread. Understandable. If you might give my question your consideration, I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks,
DAO

 

[Cassidy]

For what it's worth here is my two bits about what success of failure would mean. Firstly, failure for you certainly would not mean you are dishonest or a cheat and would not necessarily mean you are wrong although you should consider that possibility. It only means that the test chosen did not demonstrate what you thought to be true. Similarly, success would not be proof of much by itself but it would assure you of a massive audience the next time you demonstrate it and each subsequent success would confirm that you had discovered something new and unique

To some, by now, it is apparent that dishonesty, fraud, greed, is clearly not afoot. I came here with sincerity, and will remain sincere at all times.

I could only have considered the "wrong" option, had just 1 witness suggest I was wrong. This has not happened yet. Each witness is also disgusted at such a fantastic opportunity to bring on world peace, being completely dismissed due to Religious issues.

I see this as likely the greatest turning point in all our lives, and once the truth is established, for as it truly is, I have a very important and positive message, for everyone.

 

[Pixel42]

Hello flaccon,

My small, insignificant question above seems to have gotten lost amongst the fodder of everything else going on in this thread. Understandable. If you might give my question your consideration, I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks,
DAO

She said earlier in the thread that she's interested in applying for the ASKE prize initially. She doesn't, however, appear to be willing to do the kind of objective testing that ASKE would certainly require.

flaccon, do you understand that the point of the testing with cards etc is to establish whether or not you can obtain information from the spirits which can be independantly verified and which you could not invent or guess? As long as everything you are hearing is something which you could invent or guess then the likeliest source is your own mind, not spirits, no matter how sure you are that the source is external.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I'm not quite clear of the objective of this proposed test.

It seems that the intention is for Alderbank and flaccon to listen to some recordings and write down any words they think they hear, then compare notes. If the notes tend to agree, that will indicate the recordings contain noises which sound sufficiently like words for those words to be identified with reasonable consistency.

What will that usefully prove (other than that the words are not entirely a figment of flaccon's imagination which I don't think anyone here believes likely anyway)?

I suspect the test will just end up in a disagreement over what some of the word sounds might be, but it will not help in discriminating between the two offered explanations - paraidolia versus spirit voices.

I imagine flaccon thinks that the voices will sound sufficiently impressive that Alderbank will declare they must indeed be voices. But even if that happened it would be a subjective opinion and not useful evidence of an intelligent agency behind the words.

To demonstrate that the spirits are real, intelligent beings, they would need to say something intelligent, independent of the listeners. They need to tell the listeners something they don't know, but can later prove to be true, such as the suit or colour of a playing card held up so none of the people present can see it.

 

[Pixel42]

To some, by now, it is apparent that dishonesty, fraud, greed, is clearly not afoot. I came here with sincerity, and will remain sincere at all times.

I think almost everyone here has thought right from the start that you were honest and sincere, and still does. That does not however, necessarily make you right.

I could only have considered the "wrong" option, had just 1 witness suggest I was wrong. This has not happened yet. Each witness is also disgusted at such a fantastic opportunity to bring on world peace, being completely dismissed due to Religious issues.

Absolutely nobody has dismissed your claims due to religious issues. I'm completely mystified how anybody could think that was the case. Your claims are not accepted because, so far at least, you have not produced any objective evidence for them.

I see this as likely the greatest turning point in all our lives, and once the truth is established, for as it truly is, I have a very important and positive message, for everyone.

Then why are you so reluctant to do the only kind of testing which would produce meaningful results?

 

[Cassidy]

Hello flaccon,

My small, insignificant question above seems to have gotten lost amongst the fodder of everything else going on in this thread. Understandable. If you might give my question your consideration, I'd be most appreciative.

Thanks,
DAO

No, I don't fly nor will I. It isn't even about the ASKE prize, and it's not about business. Business was the only route I could spread this news after being dismissed via the initial route. But of course, there's this route too, directly approaching the people.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Flaccon, do you think the spirits would be willing to answer any kind of test question to prove they are real?

In one of your previous answers you suggested they found such an idea absurd.

 

[Cassidy]

I think almost everyone here has thought right from the start that you were honest and sincere, and still does. That does not however, necessarily make you right.


Absolutely nobody has dismissed your claims due to religious issues. I'm completely mystified how anybody could think that was the case. Your claims are not accepted because, so far at least, you have not produced any objective evidence for them.


Then why are you so reluctant to do the only kind of testing which would produce meaningful results?

Pixel, I'm not up against religious issues here at all, hence my presence. I was referring to it being dismissed by the Church.

My claims are not accepted, yet.

Testing spirit's with coloured cards, after explaining the great mystery of life, is seriously insulting them. I am not reluctant with any test, they are.

 

[Dumb All Over]

No, I don't fly nor will I. It isn't even about the ASKE prize, and it's not about business. Business was the only route I could spread this news after being dismissed via the initial route. But of course, there's this route too, directly approaching the people.

Thank you for answering my question.

You understand that your thread was posted here in the "Million Dollar Challenge" section of the forum, a sub-forum for those who seriously want to challenge Mr. Randi and take his test, yes? Since you have no intention of pursuing Mr. Randi's challenge, wouldn't you agree your thread belongs somewhere else within the forums? The "General Skepticism and The Paranormal" section perhaps, or maybe even the "Religion and Philosophy" section?

DAO

 

[Pixel42]

Pixel, I'm not up against religious issues here at all, hence my presence. I was referring to it being dismissed by the Church.

Ah, sorry. It sounded like you were talking about your reception here.

My claims are not accepted, yet.

And never will be if you don't produce objective evidence for them.

Testing spirit's with coloured cards, after explaining the great mystery of life, is seriously insulting them. I am not reluctant with any test, they are.

Then you should explain to them the reason why such tests are necessary, and that they will never get the message they are so keen to communicate out unless they consent to them. If they still refuse then you've done all you can, and you should give it up and do something more productive with your time.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I am sure I'm being stupid but I can't figure out what this would show if it is a success, Squeegee.

flaccon makes and plays back a number of recordings of what many consider to be white noise from a high gain amp with some RF breakthrough. We are both native English speakers and pareidolia leads us both to fill in the gaps in the same way. For instance, it is likely that we would both hear 'cat' or 'ship'. So what?

The claim being tested is something like 'Spirits exist and these are their voices'.

Also this test is far too subjective. At best it seems a test of how good my hearing and judgement is.

Have I misunderstood?

You're right that it's not a good protocol at all, however, I'd say that it's better than nothing. From flaccon's posts, I think it's obvious that she will not agree to any completely objective test involving the naming of cards or the like ("circus tricks"). The way I saw it when I wrote that post was that this was the closest we were likely to get to an at least partially objective test that flaccon might agree to. If this was passed, I thought she might be more willing to try more objective tests. It seems, however, that she is unwilling to try something with even the small degree of objectivity that I suggested.

As for you both being likely to hear the same pareidolia, I don't think that that's the case. Assuming that what's being listened to is close to white noise, it wouldn't be like there were actual syllables to hear. See the above example of a poster hearing 2 short words where flaccon heard the word evidence. The two things heard aren't similar.

Of course it's possible, but I don't think that's the same thing as it being likely. And, as I said, I don't think flaccon is ever going to agree to an actually objective test, certainly not right off the bat. As it is, we're back to you going round there, listening to her recordings and agreeing that they say "Get me a Bishop" or "Demons are horrible", or whatever.

 

[Cassidy]

Flaccon, do you think the spirits would be willing to answer any kind of test question to prove they are real?

In one of your previous answers you suggested they found such an idea absurd.

Most definately.

I can't explain their behaviour's towards suggested tests here. Final message last night began with "It's just ridiculous sometimes.."

It's likely Alderbank won't hear just singular words, they speak with full sentence, each with different pitch/tone/speed.

 

[Mojo]

Testing spirit's with coloured cards, after explaining the great mystery of life, is seriously insulting them. I am not reluctant with any test, they are.

What is "the great mystery of life", and what is their explanation of it?

Incidentally, the excuse that the spirits don't like to be tested is one that we've often seen before.

 

[Cassidy]

You're right that it's not a good protocol at all, however, I'd say that it's better than nothing. From flaccon's posts, I think it's obvious that she will not agree to any completely objective test involving the naming of cards or the like ("circus tricks"). The way I saw it when I wrote that post was that this was the closest we were likely to get to an at least partially objective test that flaccon might agree to. If this was passed, I thought she might be more willing to try more objective tests. It seems, however, that she is unwilling to try something with even the small degree of objectivity that I suggested.

As for you both being likely to hear the same pareidolia, I don't think that that's the case. Assuming that what's being listened to is close to white noise, it wouldn't be like there were actual syllables to hear. See the above example of a poster hearing 2 short words where flaccon heard the word evidence. The two things heard aren't similar.

Of course it's possible, but I don't think that's the same thing as it being likely. And, as I said, I don't think flaccon is ever going to agree to an actually objective test, certainly not right off the bat. As it is, we're back to you going round there, listening to her recordings and agreeing that they say "Get me a Bishop" or "Demons are horrible", or whatever.

Yes, I can't make them perform, but I can show them for what they are.

 

[Cassidy]

What is "the great mystery of life", and what is their explanation of it?

Incidentally, the excuse that the spirits don't like to be tested is one that we've often seen before.

It's no excuse, it's a reason. It's no fault of mine that they find such monkey-like tests very insulting. I'd be insulted too.

 

[zooterkin]

It's no excuse, it's a reason. It's no fault of mine that they find such monkey-like tests very insulting. I'd be insulted too.

Then why are they suggesting submitting to a test, since they must know what form it would take?

 

[Dumb All Over]

flaccon, any thoughts on my suggestions in post #710?

 

[Pixel42]

It's no excuse, it's a reason. It's no fault of mine that they find such monkey-like tests very insulting. I'd be insulted too.

You'd be insulted by being asked to cooperate in producing the only kind of objective evidence that would demonstrate that you were not a figment of someone's imagination? When so much was riding on that evidence being produced? Why?

 

[Cassidy]

Ah, sorry. It sounded like you were talking about your reception here.


And never will be if you don't produce objective evidence for them.


Then you should explain to them the reason why such tests are necessary, and that they will never get the message they are so keen to communicate out unless they consent to them. If they still refuse then you've done all you can, and you should give it up and do something more productive with your time.

It appears to me that they do not wish to be approached by a lesser intelligent form such as man, and must perform magician-like acts to be taken serious.

Such primitive testing is not necessary to prove their existence.