Cops kill Costco pizza lady....

[BStrong]

The point here is were the officers justified in shooting the woman? The answer is we do not have enough information to come to a proper conclusion.

Meanwhile, due to limited info on the topic the discussion has broadened to arguing what is reasonable or not when confronted by a knife. So in that context it is relevant to point out to those who say shoot that many police officers manage to deal with knife wielders without shooting them.

Fact is the USA is more trigger happy than elsewhere such as the UK, Germany and Canada, here is the evidence

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map

This is just like the long thread about the cop who shot the naked unarmed student on drugs. You are more sympathetic towards the police shooting people than I am. You accept a lower level of risk than I do when it comes to using deadly force. As a result of that people are more likely to die around you than me as you will shoot them whereas I will use other means. Scale that up to a national level it reflects on why people are more likely to die in the USA than the UK.

I believe the likelihood for both nations is exactly the same, 100%.

 

[joesixpack]

Military =/= police. However, if attacked, were you allowed to shoot back? I bet you were....

How much would you want to bet?

It was completely relevant in context to what I was speaking about.

Which was not the context of the OP

 

[joesixpack]

No, it seems you're not well versed in police work whatsoever.

Actually I'm quite aware of the vast difference between the public's expectation of police conduct and what passes for acceptable police work by LEOs themselves. I think even you would agree that there are some problematic elements in the LEO community. Cops are not above the law, and they are certainly not above scrutiny or criticism.

 

[Nessie]

I believe the likelihood for both nations is exactly the same, 100%.

Evidence that please.

 

[WildCat]

Considering how dangerous it is responding to a simple domestic dispute, and the frequency with witch LEOs do so, I'd say that by itself would be grounds for closing down every police agency in the nation. Call OSHA and get on that right now. Please get back to us on how that phone call goes down.

Cops are supposed to respond to a domestic situation. They're not supposed to expose themselves to preventable injury.

Perhaps you should boycott the services of your local police department to protest?

 

[Nessie]

More irrelevant ranting having no basis in this discussion, and attempting to put a square peg in a round hole. Cool story bro.

Rather than counter my points this is what you have reduced yourself to. A very poor show.

 

[Nessie]

Cops are supposed to respond to a domestic situation. They're not supposed to expose themselves to preventable injury.

Perhaps you should boycott the services of your local police department to protest?

All domestic incidents run the risk of one or other party turning on the police, especially after a spouse sees the other one being arrested.

Is there any level of injury a police officer should accept, or is shooting acceptable to prevent any injury?

 

[WildCat]

Is there any injury you would say a police officer should risk? Or is it shoot all the time?

Yes, but getting stabbed isn't one of them.

 

[WildCat]

All domestic incidents run the risk of one or other party turning on the police, especially after a spouse sees the other one being arrested.

At which point the police can respond in order to prevent getting injured. That may even include shooting.

 

[marplots]

With all this info on knife danger, I'm wondering why the police aren't just stabbing people instead of shooting them.

Tasers are great, but I'd like to see the cops with more less-than-lethal options. The argument that impresses me most is the one that asks why prison guards don't have to shoot. Should the police get more of the training that corrections officers get?

Prison guards cannot carry firearms because this would make them more likely to be overpowered in order for the gun to be stolen. Prison guards have a very different role than police.

Isn't there an overlap when it comes to subduing violent people? Are you saying that the techniques corrections officers use wouldn't work for policemen because the police have guns?

For the Costco case, I await the inevitable release of the video tape. I assume Costco has plenty of surveillance in place.

 

[Nessie]

Yes, but getting stabbed isn't one of them.

At which point the police can respond in order to prevent getting injured. That may even include shooting.

You are not answering the question. Please tell me what level of injury is unacceptable and justifies a police officer shooting someone?

Also, how do the police in other countries manage to deal with the likes of domestics and avoid shooting people to a huge extent compared to the US police?

 

[Nessie]

Isn't there an overlap when it comes to subduing violent people? Are you saying that the techniques corrections officers use wouldn't work for policemen because the police have guns?

........

The UK police have to use other techniques because they don't have guns. The German police have guns, but clearly use other non deadly techniques due to the lack of use of their guns. The US police go for their gun way more than any other police force in the Western World.

I think the reason for that is US gun culture and how it is culturally acceptable to shoot at a lower level of risk than in any other country in the Western World. Certainly in the UK guns are an absolute last resort and everything else has to be tried first.

 

[Pup]

Scale that up to a national level it reflects on why people are more likely to die in the USA than the UK.

Originally Posted by BStrong
I believe the likelihood for both nations is exactly the same, 100%.

Evidence that please.

I've got to agree with BStrong in this case. Anecdotally, the only place where the likelihood is less than 100% is the Middle East, but after further investigation, even that one anecdotal report of a lack-of-death isn't supported by any reliable evidence.

 

[Bob001]

It matters because some are assuming that the woman with a knife was no threat to the police, who are assumed to be large fit males with billy clubs and such. For all we know the police were a pair of 50 year old women.

This is actually an important question. The police department (actually the county sheriff's department) has released no information about these officers except to say that they weren't rookies. I might have more confidence in their judgment under pressure if I knew that these were veteran patrol officers with clean records, versus relatively inexperienced officers or officers with disciplinary records for using excessive force. And, sexist or not, I would expect a large man to be more willing to kick butt than a small woman. Apart from whether they did the right thing, should the public be entitled to know who we're actually talking about when we learn that "police" killed a suspect?

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Guess what Nessie? It's irrelevant how they do things in other countries. People wipe their ass with their hands in some countries, should we try that too?

You're comparing black and white. Officers here are attacked on a regular basis. It's a societal problem. Not a gun problem like you want to make everything out to be. Your bias.....it's showing still.

How is it irrelevant? A woman approaches officers with a knife and is shot. In certain other countries mentioned everyone would likely have walked away alive. I've asked this kind of question in other threads and received no answer but here goes.

Are people with knives more dangerous in the US than the UK? Or are the police not as well trained because they rely on their guns? Do you see our officers as being more vulnerable despite the evidence to the contrary? Is it that your police can't do it or that they won't (I honestly don't know which is worse)?

I'm not kidding here. It doesn't make sense to say " Yeah your way causes less fatalities but that isn't the way we do things here". If the danger is the same ( which it should be, a knife is a knife wherever you are) then you need to change the way you do things. Because you're doing a terrible job.

Comparing the police killing fewer people to wiping your ass with your hand is quite possibly the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

"Yeah we could kill less people. We could also wipe our asses with our hands!" ????WTF????

 

[Nessie]

I've got to agree with BStrong in this case. Anecdotally, the only place where the likelihood is less than 100% is the Middle East, but after further investigation, even that one anecdotal report of a lack-of-death isn't supported by any reliable evidence.

Ah, I see now

 

[Bikewer]

The search for an effective non-lethal weapon has been elusive. The problem is that circumstances are difficult to anticipate, and people are highly variable in their reactions.

The police "baton" (don't you love euphemisms) or "night-stick" has been an option for a very long time. Unfortunately, the typical untrained method of using this device is to beat people over the head until they are senseless.
This actually seldom results in them becoming senseless and instead results in the poor sod being severely cut and sometimes concussed. Bleeding profusely and still fighting...

Attempts to employ the baton in a more scientific manner, borrowing techniques from various martial arts styles, have had a limited amount of success. Blows to joints and such are highly effective, but also tend to damage the joints leading to chronic syndromes and large lawsuit awards.
Blows to muscle-mass "pressure points", such as taught in the PPCT (pressure point control tactics) system tend to work quite well...On sober people.
Unfortunately, sober people are not normally in a state of agitation requiring the officer to fight with them.
If they are high on various drugs or drunk, these blows tend to go rather unnoticed.

Chemical weapons have had varying levels of success. We were initially issued the small, personal "tear gas" canisters. They proved woefully ineffective. Some people are simply not susceptible. Again, when drunk or drug-fueled.... They tended not to work at all.

The "Pepper Spray" (Oleoresin Capsicum) is better. I've used it several times with good effect. However, if the person is very motivated or chemically "altered", he can still fight. He may not be able to see... But he can still resist and still must be wrestled into submission.
The Taser... The Taser has great potential, but at best it is somewhat unreliable. The device shoots two wired darts which diverge at a 15 degree angle.
So... There is a "sweet spot" range. Too close, the darts hit close together and there is insufficient tissue mass in between for a good, disabling shock.
Too far... And one dart misses. No effect unless you then thrust the body of the weapon against the person (it has exposed electrodes as well as the darts)

When it works, it works spectacularly well. The individual is rendered quite helpless for the duration of the 5-second pulse, and may be cuffed or otherwise restrained.
The wires attached to the darts are only 15 feet long... So that's your range.
It is intended to take "out of control" people into custody without harming them. It is NOT intended as a self-defense weapon or to be used against an armed and hostile individual...Simply not reliable enough for that purpose.

There are a variety of other "less-than-lethal" weapons available. One is projectile weapons that are designed to fire things that will disable the individual. "Bean bag" rounds. "Baton" rounds. Things like that. Generally launched by modified riot guns or 40mm launchers of the sort used for tear-gas rounds.
These are sometimes effective... But we've seen video of individuals essentially laughing them off.
Not reliable for defensive purposes.

Other devices have been proposed or are in development. The so-called "green laser" or strobe can induce nausea... Sometimes. Haven't heard any more about it in years.

So in short, no less-than-lethal weapon presently available is reliable enough in it's effects to be used for defensive purposes. Most all of them are used in an attempt to take a person into custody who is agitated, insane, threatening... but not actively attacking.

Should such a device become available... The Phaser on "stun"... I'd be first in line to get one, and I suspect police departments would fall all over themselves. "Use of force" is highly problematic for departments and officers as well.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

So "move out of the way" and let her run to where there's other employees and shoppers with children?

If only I'd said that the police should walk away and leave her to wander the store. Then this comment might have made sense.

I was referring to a scenario where someone is not attacking just walking in that general direction. If the choice is "step aside and then both cops grab her from behind" then that should be chosen over "she's walking this way and I have a toddler mindset that says *I* shouldn't ever have to step out of the way. Shoot her".

We don't know what happened and I doubt either of the cops thought this before anyone claims that's what I'm saying. Someone probably will anyway though.

Try reading the whole post next time.

 

[Nessie]

Not mentioned so far as a technique but talking the suspect down is the sign of a really good police officer. Lots of US police must be good at that since it has mentioned on a number of occasions by BStrong that many police officers never use or even draw their gun during their service.

Otherwise, getting hold of the suspects arms and then cuffing and/or fast strapping is very effective for an unarmed person. Numerous officers surrounding the suspect and then pouncing also works very well for people with blunt offensive weapons. Knives and guns are contain and negotiate.

If the Costco lady was charging with a knife and continued to do so after the failure of the tazer, I have already said shooting was justified

 

[pipelineaudio]

Even if it had been a frigging sword she was wielding, the proper response to a probably tiny Filippino lady coming at you is more likely to be summarized below:

Are you joking or are you seriously ignorant of the Filipino connection with blades?