Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

Probably the most useless argument to branch off into. Why would anyone discuss why they backed out of the hearing before they backed out of the hearing?

What we're discussing is the reason they backed out of the immunity hearing and how that reason only became obvious and logical after the fact, despite occurring to absolutely no one beforehand.

No one realized just how fraught with peril an immunity hearing would be for Zimmerman until O'Mara decided not to have one.

Post hoc rationalization?

Yes.

See, when you make up an excuse after the fact that's called "post hoc rationalization".

I have no reason to rationalize or defend anything in this trial, I'm merely speculating on a more plausible reason than his counsel and he are stupid.

I don't think anyone is arguing that O'Mara cancelled the immunity hearing because he's stupid.

The argument is that he cancelled the immunity hearing because his case is weak.

If O'Mara thought he could win an immunity hearing of course he would want to have one. Much in the way he expressed that exact desire a year ago.

Which would never be enough for the "justice for Trayvon" riot inciters and not enough for him to ever lead a normal life.

Bolded letters make it extra true!

Please explain how Zimmerman proving he acted in self-defense during an immunity hearing would be less satisfying to these imaginary riot-inciters than the prosecution merely not meeting their burden to prove he committed murder.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

"Fantasy" is the opposite of "reality". The discovery violations O'Mara alleged were determined to not have occurred in "reality". That leaves "fantasy".

"Bogus" is the opposite of "genuine". The discovery violations O'Mara alleged were determined to not be "genuine". That leaves "bogus".

The defense claimed there were discovery violations. The prosecution claimed there were not. I think we can agree that both propositions cannot be true.

So, imaginary scenarios and lack of respect for the judge's ruling aside, the one and only standard for determining veracity in this instance has been met.

There were no discovery violations.

I find your description of the motion as "bogus", and a "manufactured fantasy" simply based on the outcome of the decision, as opposed to the contents of the actual motion, to be over-the-top hyperbole.

Clearly you don't, so we'll just agree to disagree, and see how many of the states motions that are denied are referred to by you with the same hyperbolic language.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Walking requires more balance and motor control than standing.

A person who can't stand is unlikely to be able to walk.

And TM was clearly able to stand. We have a video of him standing at the counter at 7-11. So what's your point, again ?

We've been round and round about what Zimmerman's description of the altercation entails.

The language he uses is clear and unambiguous, and it is that clear and unambiguous description that I have repeatedly challenged. You have taken issue with that... for some reason.

Words have connotations. Like above, when you try to claim your description is "clear and unambiguous", it's your choice of words that connote things I disagree with. Words like "extraordinary physical prowess". Whatever fighting that happened that night didn't require "extraordinary physical prowess".

To be honest, I'm not clear what you believe occurred because it seems to be whatever Zimmerman says right up to the point that it can be used against him, and then you want to walk things back to some more innocuous version of events.

You don't want to believe Martin attempted to murder Zimmerman.

You don't want to believe that attempt was brutal and cold-blooded.

And now you don't want to believe that Martin completely overpowered and physically dominated Zimmerman.

And all that despite Zimmerman quite clearly and unambiguously describing all those things.

So frankly, I am at loss as how to argue with someone who seems to cling to some nebulous belief about what occurred that hovers somewhere between what Zimmerman claimed and things he didn't claim but that best serve his interests.

It really doesn't matter what I believe occurred.

What matters is what the state can prove. And based on all the discovery we have seen, the state does not have any proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in justified self-defense.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

From today's hearing:


Hope that clears things up.

Please let me know if there's anything else I can explain to you.

No, I'm good. As I said, it was relevant until the judge ruled it out on Tuesday, and then it became not relevant.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm going to take advantage of this thread's moderated status and blindly predict that while I'm posting this there are accusations that the judge is biased being made, and more allegations about the developing conspiracy theory against Zimmerman.

Not so far...

The rulings were not out of line with what I expected, although I did think there was a good chance that Judge Nelson would grant a few weeks delay. I also had not thought about the logistics of a field trip and keeping the Jurors identities secret.

I think MOMs motions and the Nelsons rulings mostly accomplished what MOM set out to accomplish - putting the state on notice that if they bring issues outside of the NEN call time frame, or anything related to character, that the defense is ready to fire back.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/motion_for_sanctions.pdf

Zimmerman asserts that the SAO lied when claiming to the court that they have no reports regarding Martin's phone data. Zimmerman also asserts that the binary data file does not satisfy the state's Brady obligation to inform Zimmerman about the exculpatory information contained on Martin's phone.

My question for you is this, johnny karate:

Is this motion also "bogus", and a "manufactured fantasy", like the previous motion ? Or does it only become those things if Judge Nelson rules against it ?

Yes. Because that's how these things work.

Here, let me walk you through it:

One team of attorneys files a motion making certain claims.

The other team of attorneys opposes that motion and denies the claims therein.

The judge hears arguments from both sides, and renders a decision based on the evidence presented.

The judge is the sole and final abiter in these matters. The issue ends with the decision the judge renders.

And in case you don't recall, the last time O'Mara brought claims of discovery violations and a request for sanctions to Judge Nelson, she decided his claims were unfounded and denied his request for subsequent sanctions.

That is the one and only legal standard.

Let me know if you understand, or if you need me to further explain.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422519/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html

A court employee who retrieved photos and deleted text messages from Trayvon Martin's cellphone has been placed on administrative leave after an attorney testified that prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense, an attorney said Wednesday....

I guess we will find out next week if this motion is also "bogus", and a "manufactured fantasy", as you claim ....

 

[ABC10]

Once we got beyond the sweet faced 12 year old in of all things a red shirt (like the color red, Zimmerman was wearing that tragic night) with all thing exposed about Zimmerman, sure we should investigate Martin. Why not?
Personally, I would love to see the cousin on the stand, DeeDee, Selma and most of all Mary with her "little boy voice".
What we do know is that as a result of George's "violence" with a plain clothes cop in a bar at 2AM was so horrendous, the Judge sentenced him to a class. WOW! Now that is punishment.
We do know that the girlfriend and George counter sued each other and at the end of a year, both charges were dropped and the Judge said "Stay away from each other".
We do know that George protested a homeless guy beat up while Martin filmed a homeless man being beat up by his own pals.
So much for tendency of violence on Zimmerman's part.

 

[ABC10]

So?

Let's assume Trayvon as a delinquent, a druggie, a thug, a burglar, a gangbanger, had anger issues, whatever. Doesn't matter.

On the night he was killed, he was not involved in any illegal activity, he was coming home from the store, in a neighborhood he had a right to be in, and had attempted to remove himself from the encounter with George. George chose to persue after being advised not to (let's not play the "We don't need you to do that." semantics game here). George shot and killed an unarmed teenager, suffering very minor and minimal physical injuries to what he describes as a vicious beating, and has numerous inconsistencies in his stories of how the encounter went down and woth respect to the physical evidence (debris field, for instance).

No amount of dragging Trayvon Martin or his family through mud changes any of that.

Nor do the accusations against George alter the fact that he was punched by Martin, knocked to the ground, his head pounded and straddled which put him in fear for his own life resulting in Martin being shot.

 

[12AX7]

Nor do the accusations against George alter the fact that he was punched by Martin, knocked to the ground, his head pounded and straddled which put him in fear for his own life resulting in Martin being shot.

Nope.

His "savage beating" won't hold up as a fear-for-your-life event. And, I thought the George fans said it was Trayvon "going for the gun" that was the fear moment?

 

[johnny karate]

Once we got beyond the sweet faced 12 year old in of all things a red shirt (like the color red, Zimmerman was wearing that tragic night) with all thing exposed about Zimmerman, sure we should investigate Martin. Why not?

Something called "rules of evidence".

See the judge's rulings in this most recent hearing if this a concept with which you are unfamiliar.

 

[johnny karate]

I think MOMs motions and the Nelsons rulings mostly accomplished what MOM set out to accomplish -

Yes, what a rousing victory for the defense. I'm sure having almost every single one of their motions denied was the game plan all along. I can't believe the judge played right into their hands like that.

...putting the state on notice that if they bring issues outside of the NEN call time frame, or anything related to character, that the defense is ready to fire back.

I hate to break it to you, but that state has absolutely no need to bring up Martin's character at any time. He's the victim. He was walking home from the store and talking on the phone with a friend.

That's all the state will ever have to tell the jury about him because he's not the one on trial, Zimmerman is.

 

[johnny karate]

What matters is what the state can prove. And based on all the discovery we have seen, the state does not have any proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in justified self-defense.

Perhaps try repeating this three times while clicking your heels together?

Such bold proclamations remind of the salad days for Zimmerman's defenders when it was just as boldly proclaimed that the probable cause affidavit was insufficient and unethical and would most likely result in a dismissal of charges.

Remind me again, how'd that turn out?

 

[johnny karate]

No, I'm good. As I said, it was relevant..

Relevant to what?

... until the judge ruled it out on Tuesday, and then it became not relevant.

Yeah... okay.

 

[johnny karate]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/29/3422519/lawyer-zimmerman-prosecutor-withheld.html

A court employee who retrieved photos and deleted text messages from Trayvon Martin's cellphone has been placed on administrative leave after an attorney testified that prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense, an attorney said Wednesday....

I guess we will find out next week if this motion is also "bogus", and a "manufactured fantasy", as you claim ....

I wouldn't hold my breath.

The "evidence" is question was already ruled inadmissable by Judge Nelson.

Furthermore, the defense received it back in January in the form of raw data, which is exactly how the prosecution received it. Apparently, O'Mara expects the prosecution to spend their time and money interpreting data for the defense.

 

[BenBurch]

Minutes from May 28 Docket Sounding - Court minutes from hearing on motions.

Media Companies' Brief on Electronic Coverage of Jurors - The media companies who intervened to object to a gag order and anonymous jury have removed their objection to an order prohibiting photography of jury members provided that prohibition applies only to the court setting and expires after trial.

05/28/2013 SUDI DEFENDANT'S 4TH SUPPLEMENTAL DISCOVERY - Zimmerman has filed a 4th Supplemental Discovery Exhibit with the court. Since this pleading has not appeared on the GZ Legal Case site, I'm assuming the discovery exhibit consists of protected information.

What sort of things would be protected information like that?

 

[ABC10]

Nope.

His "savage beating" won't hold up as a fear-for-your-life event. And, I thought the George fans said it was Trayvon "going for the gun" that was the fear moment?

You becha it will. I predict that the clerk in the 7/11 will be called to testify after the video of Martin and he has been shown to the jury. The sweet faced "little boy" aura will give way to the reality of how big Martin was in relationship to George and how scary "little Tray" was in real life. O'Mara West will arrange to have the clerk stand next to George showing the difference in their height and physical appearance as will the color photo Bernie tried to hide from the defense demonstrating how beat up and injured Martin's blows hurt George. I am a fan of truth, justice and the American way. Another prediction. O'Mara West will appeal Nelson's "no visit to the crime site" and she will be overturned. Heads up 5th Appeal Judges, another hot potato is coming your way. Nelson may be "off the case" by trial time.

 

[Cylinder]

What sort of things would be protected information like that?

First, it's my naked assumption that the 4th Supplemental Discovery is protected. That's based on the fact that these exhibits normally appear very promptly on the GZ Legal Case site - usually timed to coincide with their appearance in the clerk's docket. It's also possible that there's an administrative explanation (e.g. MOM is busy with depositions and has yet to approve the release.)

Otherwise, there's two categories for protected information: those protected by statute (e.g. confessions, post-mortem photos, medical records, school records) and those protected by Judge Lester's protective order. This includes:

- Identifying information for previously undisclosed witnesses: this protects the identity of people who made statements but has not been voluntarily identified by other means such as appearing in the media. That protects the identity but not the content, so the statement would be stripped of identifying information and then made public.

- Tangentially-related identities: The fact that John Smith lives two doors down from the crime scene but didn't know Zimmerman, Martin, or witness the incident.

- Telcom records: Past records not related to the incident are protected.

For instance, Zimmerman's 3rd Supplemental Discovery has the alleged beat-down video redacted, since presumably it contains identifying images of potential witnesses. Under the protective order, it's arguable that the media can petition the court to have that transcript released.

ETA: Judge Nelson recently reaffirmed Lester's order just in case anyone has that question.

 

[bookworm]

He may have ended up the victim but it sure is looking like he started out as the aggressor. I'd bet the person he was talking to on the phone knows it, too. That's why she didn't come forward on her own.

 

[KatieG]

Cylinder, I'm having a memory fail. What beat down video are you referring to?

 

[KatieG]

Once we got beyond the sweet faced 12 year old in of all things a red shirt (like the color red, Zimmerman was wearing that tragic night) with all thing exposed about Zimmerman, sure we should investigate Martin. Why not?
Personally, I would love to see the cousin on the stand, DeeDee, Selma and most of all Mary with her "little boy voice".
What we do know is that as a result of George's "violence" with a plain clothes cop in a bar at 2AM was so horrendous, the Judge sentenced him to a class. WOW! Now that is punishment.
We do know that the girlfriend and George counter sued each other and at the end of a year, both charges were dropped and the Judge said "Stay away from each other".We do know that George protested a homeless guy beat up while Martin filmed a homeless man being beat up by his own pals.So much for tendency of violence on Zimmerman's part.

Dude, that's so 2012.

That is a common retaliation move by men after a woman has filed for a protective order. I'm pretty sure GZ followed that playbook.

So far, no evidence exists that actually happened. A video exists. There has been no authentication of said video. There might be in the future, but not right now.