Brits and handguns.

[Rat]

Of course it doesn't. This belief is a religion to you, it's not like you believe what you do because of reasoning and research and careful analysis of evidence and such. Hoplophobia, like all other phobias, is irrational at its core.

Use of the term hoplophobia makes a statement in itself. I don't like the idea of the general public carrying guns around. It is not a phobia. The word is an attempt to stigmatize or even medicalize a belief, or sometimes just an attempt to sound clever. I have not yet heard anti-gun people use the obvious counter of hoplophiliac, but I'm sure it will come about, and I will look upon that in the same way.

 

[The Don]

What on earth makes you think that's just about family arguments? Doesn't that also include street gang arguments?

Also, that number is skewed. 80% of gang-related murders here go unsolved, so "the circumstances" aren't determined. And these account for 80-90% of all the killings here. Your number assumes that in 100% of the murders the circumstances are known, which demonstrably isn't the case by a long shot. Domestic disputes which end up in murder, those have a nearly 100% rate of being solved by the police.

That's covered in the link I showed.

The breakdown includes the 44% of murders (not the 80-90% figure you suggest) where the relationship between killer and victim is unknown:

- 13.5% family members
- 12.4% stranger
- 29.7% other known
- 44.0% relationship not known

The family members figure could include street gang deaths if one family member is killed by another family member as part of street gang activities but the largest number is husband/wife, wife/husband relationships which, together with parent/child, child/parent are unlikely to be street gang related.


edited to add.....

repeat of the link for those who are interested:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...o-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain

the expanded tables are even more interesting and informative - thank you FBI

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...o-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain

 

[Marcus]

No. You misunderstood me. I do not believe that people who disagree with me are less intelligent. I believe that people who keep guns are unintelligent fools.
Clearer?

People who hold this belief of yours are not necessarily unintelligent. A combination of ignorance and bias could be responsible.

 

[WildCat]

I found it quite shocking the lobbyists have put a halt on all real research into the gun culture,

 

[Marcus]

It's not a black and white issue, at least not here in the US.

For example, the NRA is opposing the current push for background checks for all gun buyers, not just those who purchase at retail stores. I personally don't have a problem with background checks, I don't see a government conspiracy behind every bush.

 

[WildCat]

That's covered in the link I showed.

The breakdown includes the 44% of murders (not the 80-90% figure you suggest) where the relationship between killer and victim is unknown:

- 13.5% family members
- 12.4% stranger
- 29.7% other known
- 44.0% relationship not known

The family members figure could include street gang deaths if one family member is killed by another family member as part of street gang activities but the largest number is husband/wife, wife/husband relationships which, together with parent/child, child/parent are unlikely to be street gang related.


edited to add.....

repeat of the link for those who are interested:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...o-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain

the expanded tables are even more interesting and informative - thank you FBI

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...o-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain

And I'll point out that gangs often know the person they kill, there is a relationship/acquaintanceship there. Just because people know each other doesn't mean they're friends. Drug dealers often work together until one kills the other to gain market share or avenge a bad deal for example.

And if you crunch the numbers of your source you'll find that demographics are far more influential than guns. The homicide rate for whites is 2.35/100,000. It's probably much less for non-Hispanic whites, but the FBI doesn't distinguish between Hispanic and non-Hispanic whites. Chicago does make that distinction, and the rate for Hispanic whites is 4-5 times that of non-Hispanic whites. I'm not sure how those numbers hold up nationally, there's no data available.

The point being that guns are far less influential in homicides than other social issues are, or we'd see more consistency between different demographic groups.

 

[WildCat]

It's not a black and white issue, at least not here in the US.

For example, the NRA is opposing the current push for background checks for all gun buyers, not just those who purchase at retail stores. I personally don't have a problem with background checks, I don't see a government conspiracy behind every bush.

The NRA does not oppose background checks, they oppose the way it was implemented in that bill which was a back door to registration.

 

[WildCat]

Use of the term hoplophobia makes a statement in itself.

When you paint with a broad brush like "anyone who keeps a gun is an unintelligent fool" it fits quite nicely.

 

[Giz]

Use of the term hoplophobia makes a statement in itself. I don't like the idea of the general public carrying guns around. It is not a phobia. The word is an attempt to stigmatize or even medicalize a belief, or sometimes just an attempt to sound clever. I have not yet heard anti-gun people use the obvious counter of hoplophiliac, but I'm sure it will come about, and I will look upon that in the same way.

In the USA, civilian concealed carriers have a much lower rate of offending than the general population (some surveys have them offending less than cops). After expanding ccw laws, the murder rates have continued to go down.

Being afraid of lawful concealed carriers in the USA is an irrational phobia.

 

[The Don]

And I'll point out that gangs often know the person they kill, there is a relationship/acquaintanceship there. Just because people know each other doesn't mean they're friends. Drug dealers often work together until one kills the other to gain market share or avenge a bad deal for example.

My point was about the family rate and pointing out the U.S. homicide rate for family members was more than half the UK rate for all homicides (where there are presumably a large proportion of gang/drug related murders too).

And if you crunch the numbers of your source you'll find that demographics are far more influential than guns. The homicide rate for whites is 2.35/100,000. It's probably much less for non-Hispanic whites, but the FBI doesn't distinguish between Hispanic and non-Hispanic whites. Chicago does make that distinction, and the rate for Hispanic whites is 4-5 times that of non-Hispanic whites. I'm not sure how those numbers hold up nationally, there's no data available.

2.35/100k is still twice the UK rate for all ethnic backgrounds.

It isn't possible to determine whether the same is true in the UK because the figures aren't gathered but given that the rates are higher in cities and that cities are more ethnically diverse then it's probable that the UK has a similarly disproportionate number of non-white victims and perpatrators. So maybe the white homicide rate in the UK is significantly lower than 1.2/100k

Here are some out of date figures regarding violent crime in general.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/172542/stats-race-cjs-2010.pdf.pdf

The point being that guns are far less influential in homicides than other social issues are, or we'd see more consistency between different demographic groups.

If the UK figures are have a similar racial profile as the US figures but at 1/4 the rate then it would suggest that guns are a significant part of the issue given that the US and UK figures also include murders by other means (and that the UK is a far more violent society).



edited to add....

The out of date figures show that the homicide rate is significantly lower for white victims but that the figures as a whole are not skewed that badly:

For England and Wales overall, the rate for White homicide victims was 11.8 per million population compared with 49.7 for Black victims and 18.3 for Asians

Given that the homicide rate is 20% lower nowadays, the white homicide rate is probably currently around 1.0/100k (or about 40% of the U.S. rate - and remember we are far more violent than the U.S., just not fatally so)

 

[Marcus]

The NRA does not oppose background checks, they oppose the way it was implemented in that bill which was a back door to registration.

Okay, perhaps I should say that they oppose the bill which contains the new background checks.

I do get the impression that they will oppose any bill that proposes background checks for all gun buyers, I could be wrong though I'm not an expert on the subject.

 

[3point14]

Except in Scotland.

But midges are hard to hit with any kind of gun.

Buckshot's probably your best option.

 

[squealpiggy]

Definitely they would be diagnosed as a nut. Hunting with a bow is illegal here, and quite rightly so. I used to do a fair bit of field archery at targets, while not the most accurate, I was far from being the worst at loosing off a few. There is no way I could guarantee a quick painless kill of an animal. I also, like most archers over here, see compound bows as somehow cheating and ungentlemanly.

Only longbows and only against Frenchmen. And sometimes the Welsh.

One minor issue with this may be the prevalence of snakes or other creatures that might actually attack a hunter from a short distance where I tend to hunt. I don't carry a side arm, but I hunt with people who do and I don't find it terribly strange. I've come close to stepping on more than one venomous snake, some longer than I am tall. I've also had to stop and look for cover when walking up on a group of wild hogs. A raccoon came closer to actually attacking me once, but I don't hear anyone claiming that as a reason to carry. At least not out loud.

Granted, a handgun isn't the only way to protect oneself in these scenarios, but it can be effective.

My understanding is that a hunter in the UK is less likely to fear attack from wildlife while hunting.

The biggest threats are from wombles, but apart from that a handgun will do little to protect your feet if you tread on a hedgehog.

So do you resent the armed police and military that protect your society because they in part use guns to perform their duty?

Ranb

In the UK it's fairly common to live most of your life without ever seeing a gun. Police don't usually carry guns, not many people own guns. When I moved to Canada I found it jarring at first to see police officers and even some security guards with sidearms, but you get used to it. It becomes normal.

Then I went in a Walmart in Florida

I also believe that people who keep vicious dogs around children are fools and that people who drive while drunk are fools.

The only thing that can stop a bad drunk driver is a good drunk driver.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

And just like wildcat is positing for the US, the relationships between perp and victim differs by ethnicity, with white victims more likely to be killed by a family member and black victims more likely to be some other person known to them.

There were differences between the relationship of the homicide victims and
principal suspects in cases with a current suspect across ethnic groups. While
the largest proportion of homicides involving White victims involved a principal
suspect from the victim’s family (37%), the principal suspect in homicides with
Black victims was, in the largest proportion of cases, some other known
person (39%); and, in homicides involving Asian victims, strangers (45%).

 

[The Don]

Only longbows and only against Frenchmen. And sometimes the Welsh.

Noooooooooooo !!!!!!

 

[Ranb]

I did read an article about a research scientist in the US who specialised in researching the gun ownership / crime figures a couple of months ago in Scientific American.

Ok

I found it quite shocking the lobbyists have put a halt on all real research into the gun culture, therefore I think it quite honest to say that all the pro gun lobby propaganda is just a tad iffy.

Really? So where did the graph you posted come from? Was the research the scientist performed not real?

I did not know the gun lobby was that powerful. They have not stopped me.

Ranb

 

[Skepticemea]

Buckshot's probably your best option.

Hollowpoints with Citronella jackets. *nods head sagely*

 

[Ranb]

In the UK it's fairly common to live most of your life without ever seeing a gun. Police don't usually carry guns, not many people own guns. When I moved to Canada I found it jarring at first to see police officers and even some security guards with sidearms, but you get used to it. It becomes normal.

This has nothing to do with scarletinlondon's opinion that "My view is that guns are always a very bad idea." People with guns help keep her safe. Does she resent that or not?

Then I went in a Walmart in Florida

What was jaw dropping about your visit to Walmart in Florida?

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

For example, the NRA is opposing the current push for background checks for all gun buyers, not just those who purchase at retail stores. I personally don't have a problem with background checks, I don't see a government conspiracy behind every bush.

You didn't bother to read the bill did you? It was more than gun buyers who needed the check and it was more than background checks. If a politician wants a background check for gun buyers, then maybe they should write a bill that does only that. Writing a bloated bill that has no chance of passage because it is a piece of crap then bleating because their piece of crap doesn't pass makes them look dumb.

Ranb

 

[squealpiggy]

This has nothing to do with scarletinlondon's opinion that "My view is that guns are always a very bad idea." People with guns help keep her safe. Does she resent that or not?

Out of sight, out of mind. And of course people with guns keep her safe, but it doesn't necessarily follow that more guns means more safety.

What was jaw dropping about your visit to Walmart in Florida?

Ranb

The arsenal of weapons that confronted me when I rounded a corner.