Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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You know, HF, I just fail to believe you, because your agenda is clear.
That's OK. You're wrong, but it doesn't matter. Anyway, I've had a look. The thread at debate.atheist.net and Jabba's own shroud debates.com seem to have died down two years and one year ago respectively. godandscience is still current, though it seems a bit slow. I'll keep an eye on it in case it brightens up.
 
That's OK. You're wrong, but it doesn't matter. Anyway, I've had a look. The thread at debate.atheist.net and Jabba's own shroud debates.com seem to have died down two years and one year ago respectively. godandscience is still current, though it seems a bit slow. I'll keep an eye on it in case it brightens up.

So what does that mean? You're going to maintain objectivity about the shroud or something? Objectivity at this point means that the shroud is a 14th century artifact.
 
So what does that mean? You're going to maintain objectivity about the shroud or something? Objectivity at this point means that the shroud is a 14th century artifact.
No, no, dear me, what suspicious minds you have! At the moment they're discussing Giulio Fanti's latest book/paper and ideas, which don't interest me much, so I won't wade in. A few posts back there's a reference to a long interview with Isobel Piczek, who describes how painting-like the shroud is, but then ascribes it to some very weird physics rather than an artist. In another site she is described as the leading theoretical particle physicist on the planet today, having been awarded her PhD in Physics and MA in Art in Hungary at the age of 13. I may feel like asking awkward questions there...
 
No, no, dear me, what suspicious minds you have! At the moment they're discussing Giulio Fanti's latest book/paper and ideas, which don't interest me much, so I won't wade in. A few posts back there's a reference to a long interview with Isobel Piczek, who describes how painting-like the shroud is, but then ascribes it to some very weird physics rather than an artist. In another site she is described as the leading theoretical particle physicist on the planet today, having been awarded her PhD in Physics and MA in Art in Hungary at the age of 13. I may feel like asking awkward questions there...
Suspicious with very good reason. Your internet history preceeds you, and that is most difficult to erase.
 
1) begin to understand each other
We understand you quite well; you have a desperate need top believe in a god and the shroud is a prop in that belief. The reality of the shroud's origin is a threat to that belief and thus must be denied.

2) actually make some progress towards resolving our differences
Will you be embracing reality then?

3) show that actually effective debate between persons with "central" differences of opinion is not just possible, but is something we can deliberately do.
So you'll accept evidence and stop repetitively posting previously debunked crap?
 
...If you don't want to engage with Jabba, then don't. If you do, you must do so on his terms to make him understand your point of view. ...

Must?



... A few posts back there's a reference to a long interview with Isobel Piczek, who describes how painting-like the shroud is, but then ascribes it to some very weird physics rather than an artist. In another site she is described as the leading theoretical particle physicist on the planet today, having been awarded her PhD in Physics and MA in Art in Hungary at the age of 13. I may feel like asking awkward questions there...

You might try the search this thread option to find our discussions about the lady before asking 'awkward' questions anywhere. We have posted up a wealth of information about Isobel Piczek here.
 
You might try the search this thread option to find our discussions about the lady before asking 'awkward' questions anywhere. We have posted up a wealth of information about Isobel Piczek here.
Very little, actually. The word Piczek brings up 5 previous mentions, none of which say much about her, and nothing at all about why she is almost invariably referred to as a physicist. Type "Isabel Piczek" into Google and you get 59000 hits. Add "-physicist" and it goes down to 2000. And is she a Dame? The term is used to denote a woman awarded the equivalent of a knighthood in Britain, but I don't know about Hungary.
 
hughfarey said:
If you do, you must do so on his terms to make him understand your point of view
Actually, I don't have to. The issue is, Jabba failed in his obligation. He jumped into this without doing the requisite background research--he started spouting off about the carbon dating without bothering to learn the most basic facts about how carbon dating works. He demonstrably failed to show a high-school level of understanding (according to the California science standards for 9th through 12th grade) of the subject.

It is therefore HIS obligation to educate himself to the point where he actually understands the system. If he would like my help, I'd be happy to do so. In fact, we've demonstrated our willingness to help--we've provided numerous references for him to use to educate himself on this topic, some of which are free and readily available to anyone who has access to this site (meaning that they require nothing that isn't required on your computer to post here, so we KNOW he can read them). We've also done the math for him. All he needs to do is read it. He has refused.

The fact that he hasn't bothered to do these things means that he's simply not willing to try (it's been a year--if he wanted to, he would have by now). That means that there is ZERO obligation on our part to stoop to his level. Since he is unwilling to attempt to rise to the level of being competent enough to discuss the topics at hand, it's not our job to lobotomize ourselves to the point where we're as ignorant as he is.

Jabba has maliciously attempted to artificially maintain a very low level of knowledge in order--by his own admission at one point--to limit our ability to criticize him. There is no obligation AT ALL for us to play that game merely because he wants to.
 
Try this post as a starting point
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9069923#post9069923
The infors and links should be of use.
Not really. There is quite a lot in the second link about her and her sister as monumental artists, but nothing about the 'particle physicist' claim. In another place I have found that she is a Dame of the Pontifical Order of St Gregory, which clears that up. The first link in the post contains a misprint and leads to a "Not Found" notice, and the second link is now broken.
I wouldn't find it relevant except that her shroud claim involves a lot of quantum/hologram/event-horizon vocabulary which I believe to be complete non-sense (in its literal rather than pejorative sense), and wonder how it arose.
 
^
I had, once upon a time, a link which traced just how that 'particle physicist' confusion arouse. Apparently it stemmed from an interview with the artist in which she explained how necessary a broad education was for an artist. The Shroudies inflated the claim and it's in that version Piczek was labelled a scientist. I'll try to hunt out the link to that interview.
 
Ah, Isobel Piczek. Just another chance for me to trot out my favorite video (which I will do at the smallest provocation): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg

She and her glorious wonderful theory appear at about 1:10.

I know you've all seen it, but if you are having a bad day, it will bring a smile to your face, or maybe a sqirt-milk-out-your-nose laugh.

Ward
 
The particle physicist misdirection lives on in FB
"Dame Isabel Paczek (Particle Physicist) commenting on the Shroud of Turin says that people view the tomb of Christ as signifying death, but rather when one studies the positioning of the body in the shroud and the events giving rise to the image ... the tomb of Christ takes on a new astounding meaning ... where it begins to symbolise an unbelievable beginning. Physicists have discovered a true event horizon in the study of the shroud, and in the depth of the collapsed event horizon there is what is called 'singularity' - the same phenomenon that started the universe in the big bang."
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=170680509610310&story_fbid=501248529886838

Here is where the artist is identified as a particle physicist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg
at 1:12, possibly because she mentions the word singularity.

"Type "Isabel Piczek" into Google and you get 59000 hits. Add "-physicist" and it goes down to 2000."

You noticed, of course, that almost all those hits on the first 10 pages refer to that vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg
or the book she co-edited on the subject of the TS?

It's a misdirection almost as embarrassing as the continued references to Dmitri Kouznetsov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg overthe web.

For example
"Dr. Dimitri Kouznetsov of the Sedov Biopolymer Research Laboratory in Moscow has conducted experiments on the accuracy of radiocarbon dating of samples previously exposed to intense heat. Dr. Kouznetsov acquired an ancient linen cloth with origin in Israel, radiocarbon dated to 200 CE. The cloth was exposed to intense heat in the presence of silver, after which it radiocarbon dated 1400 years later! Dr. Kouznetsov attributes this to biofractionalization and the chemical bonding, under heat, of extrinisic C14 to the linen. I will qualify that there are those who question Dr. Kouznetsov's scientific expertise and methodology. "
http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm

It's interesting to see how these Shroudie errors live on.
 
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Ah, Isobel Piczek. Just another chance for me to trot out my favorite video (which I will do at the smallest provocation): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg

She and her glorious wonderful theory appear at about 1:10.

I know you've all seen it, but if you are having a bad day, it will bring a smile to your face, or maybe a sqirt-milk-out-your-nose laugh.

Ward
So much stupidity and pseudo-scientific nonsense crammed into so short a video................
 
So much stupidity and pseudo-scientific nonsense crammed into so short a video................

Hilarious how the problems of the image mapping to a real wrapped body become miraculous virtues in that woman's hands. Is she saying the body must have been hovering without gravity between the flat shroud surfaces?
 
^
Taut cloth surfaces.
The lady was quite precise, after all.

Even more hilarious is that Shroudies swallow that guff down to the present day.
 
Ah, Isobel Piczek. Just another chance for me to trot out my favorite video (which I will do at the smallest provocation): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg

She and her glorious wonderful theory appear at about 1:10.

I know you've all seen it, but if you are having a bad day, it will bring a smile to your face, or maybe a sqirt-milk-out-your-nose laugh.

Ward

Thank you for that, the ability of people to misconstrue science and reason remains limitless. :-)
 
Sample Selection

Jabba:2.1.4. The scientists themselves selected the sample...

This, I take it, is a proposition to be explored. Is that right?...

Hugh,

I just wanted to let you know that what I posted in #7389 was misleading. The sentence in blue was the anti-authentic claim to which my responses in red were referring.

I'll try to be right back.

Rich...

That lead sentence is supposed to be in blue.
 
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