Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

Without supporting the concept, the central point is that the court, not experts, must make the decisions. Hellmann should just reviewed the first trial evidence and made his own decision.

I repeat that the question is with this court will they be able to ignore what they know already? Will they look at the first trial testimony and come to Hellmann's conclusion by just using the evidence in that trial (with a wink to C&V)?

Unless we completely misunderstand the system, a trial de novo must allow for more than just a review. Will the defense be able to bring evidence about Curatolo and heroin use for example?

I'm still on the legality of the DNA report.

Is the issue that the judge ordered this report vs it being submitted as evidence by either the prosecution or defense?

I'm still pissed that Stefoni can withhold info without recourse

I'm about irked enough to jump on a plane and move to Italy for a year, so I can learn how their legal system actually works (& pick up a little italian while I'm there)

 

[Grinder]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=7881[/qimg]
Here we have the known bloody footsteps of Rudy walking down the hall.

On that bottom print, the shoe does overlap the edge of the pink bag. There is a bit of a wrinkle on that edge but it is not certain that the bag was in that position when Rudy walked through.

Dan O if you would, what is the doorway this picture is shot through?

 

[Grinder]

So the doorway is from the common area to the back bedrooms, which adds to the issue of how Filomena could be so sure Meredith never locked her door.

 

[Grinder]

I'm still on the legality of the DNA report.

Is the issue that the judge ordered this report vs it being submitted as evidence by either the prosecution or defense?

I'm still pissed that Stefoni can withhold info without recourse

I'm about irked enough to jump on a plane and move to Italy for a year, so I can learn how their legal system actually works (& pick up a little italian while I'm there)

The issue seemed to center on who made the judgment. Since Mignini et al. requested another test, it would seem the experts weren't the problem but how they were used.

 

[Sonia]

And the drying rack makes me think that anybody in the house could have handled her bra if it was there at some time. It would be easy to knock it off and pick it up without remembering the event, sort of like deleting a text message

I had the same thought. Or possibly he or anyone else walking through the house could have put out a hand to avoid knocking any clothing off the rack as he brushed past it, or even to steady the rack itself as he brushed by. Also the rack probably contains DNA from many hands/fingers on the dowels because people touch them when they drape damp laundry on the rack and also when they scoop up laundered items that have dried.

 

[el buscador]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=7881[/qimg]
Here we have the known bloody footsteps of Rudy walking down the hall.

On that bottom print, the shoe does overlap the edge of the pink bag. There is a bit of a wrinkle on that edge but it is not certain that the bag was in that position when Rudy walked through.

Would any of the girls have left the three items just laying out on the floor like that? It seems rather odd.

 

[Kaosium]

What kind of bull **** law makes a DNA review illegal? Why go to the trouble to make a law like that? This is confounding to me if true.

Imagine a system where the prosecutors are part of the judiciary, and the higher level judges are selected (mainly) from the ranks of the prosecutors, and the prosecutors head the investigations and evidence collection and pretty much have free rein when it comes to what's considered evidence in court. Their buddy the judge isn't gonna deny them much, and if he gets uppity the prosecutor can always appeal, so they might as well give them their way most of the time. The whole system is woefully overloaded so its best to avoid appeals if at all possible from the judge's point of view.

If independent experts can be appointed, why they might not agree with the prosecutions interpretation of the evidence, and it may be that many courts would want that option, and of course the whole system is terribly overloaded. I went looking for the data I posted previously on that and was amused to find the ECHR has put up an access wall of some sort, so I had to go through the wayback machine, and here's the data on Italian violations in the ECHR compared to other countries for the seven years before Amanda and Raffaele were arrested.

Look how they compare to other Western European countries in the category 'right to a fair trial.' Then look to see how they stack up against everyone on length of proceedings.

 

[Sonia]

Would any of the girls have left the three items just laying out on the floor like that? It seems rather odd.

Did the investigators ever walk with Amanda, Laura, and Filomena through the house in order to compile a detailed list of everything which they could identify as missing/out of place/disturbed?

Please forgive my ignorance of the investigation details. I was just wondering.

Also, I know Meredith's rent money and credit cards were missing. Was Amanda's rent money stashed in her room, and if so was her cash missing also?

 

[NancyS]

I had the same thought. Or possibly he or anyone else walking through the house could have put out a hand to avoid knocking any clothing off the rack as he brushed past it, or even to steady the rack itself as he brushed by. Also the rack probably contains DNA from many hands/fingers on the dowels because people touch them when they drape damp laundry on the rack and also when they scoop up laundered items that have dried.

It seems crazy to me that the DNA could mean anything even if it had been carried out in a professional way - young students live in such close proximity and are constantly eating and drinking together, sharing joints and drinking from the same bottles, sitting on each others beds, doing laundry together and kissing, hugging each other at every hello and goodbye and sharing bathrooms with probably clothes left on floor. It was always going to be possible for Meredith to be carrying traces of DNA of the people she lived with or had recently hung out in her flat with.

 

[anglolawyer]

Did the investigators ever walk with Amanda, Laura, and Filomena through the house in order to compile a detailed list of everything which they could identify as missing/out of place/disturbed?

Please forgive my ignorance of the investigation details. I was just wondering.

Also, I know Meredith's rent money and credit cards were missing. Was Amanda's rent money stashed in her room, and if so was her cash missing also?

In her book Amanda says they took her back on the 3rd or 4th Nov and sent her to check to see if anything was missing while they hung back in the kitchen. She says she forgot to check her rent money (suggesting it was there) and came back and said nothing was missing. I have a theory about this. I reckon the cops had already checked and found her money was there and wanted to see if she would say anything about it. When she didn't it may have raised their eyebrows. The weird thing about this theory is that nothing was ever made of it even though it offered a forensic point against her.

They might also have wanted to see if she spotted her lamp missing except of course they knew who had taken it. She didn't.

 

[el buscador]

In her book Amanda says they took her back on the 3rd or 4th Nov and sent her to check to see if anything was missing while they hung back in the kitchen. She says she forgot to check her rent money (suggesting it was there) and came back and said nothing was missing. I have a theory about this. I reckon the cops had already checked and found her money was there and wanted to see if she would say anything about it. When she didn't it may have raised their eyebrows. The weird thing about this theory is that nothing was ever made of it even though it offered a forensic point against her.

They might also have wanted to see if she spotted her lamp missing except of course they knew who had taken it. She didn't.

Please, not the lamp, again.

 

[Grinder]

Please, not the lamp, again.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It seems crazy to me that the DNA could mean anything even if it had been carried out in a professional way - young students live in such close proximity and are constantly eating and drinking together, sharing joints and drinking from the same bottles, sitting on each others beds, doing laundry together and kissing, hugging each other at every hello and goodbye and sharing bathrooms with probably clothes left on floor. It was always going to be possible for Meredith to be carrying traces of DNA of the people she lived with or had recently hung out in her flat with.

I have always been somewhat surprised that they didn't find some trace of Amanda's DNA in Meredith's room, given the number of samples they took.

They found Meredith's fingerprints on the door of Amanda's closet. I shudder to think if it had been the other way around.

It's helpful to be able to say, truthfully, that no trace of Amanda was ever found in the room where the murder took place. And indeed, that would not be the case if she had grappled with Meredith and participated in this horrific murder. But the complete absence of her DNA/fingerprints in any context is a mere coincidence.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

mixed DNA and clothing or bedding

Clothing and bedding are almost like DNA magnets. I suspect that towels are, also.

 

[anglolawyer]

Please, not the lamp, again.

They might also have wanted to see if she spotted her lamp missing except of course they knew who had taken it. She didn't.

Just to clear up an ambiguity that may have caused distress on the forum, when I said 'she didn't' I meant she didn't notice it missing.

 

[billyryan]

I think a cop planted it. He didn't have a clean reference sample, so he rubbed it against a dirty sock or some other article of clothing that had been worn by Raffaele. Then the cops called the scientific police back to the cottage for bloodstain analysis and luminol testing, and mentioned that they couldn't find the bra fastener so be sure to look for it.

Monica Napoleoni planted the bra clasp evidence

 

[Kaosium]

Monica Napoleoni planted the bra clasp evidence

What makes you say her?

It is so very strange how delighted they look finding the bra clasp considering how uninterested they were when they collected the evidence, videoing it on the day of discovery and then (apparently...) leaving it there!

One thing that I've never been able to figure out, what on earth are they doing with it during the December collection? You tweezer it up and put it in the little envelope, there's nothing I can think of that would cause them to treat this 'vital' evidence like that. No benefit at all, it makes them look like clowns in bunny suits.

I did feel better when I read of that judge who resigned not long ago, amongst other things citing that video as something intolerable.

 

[yimyammer]

I have always been somewhat surprised that they didn't find some trace of Amanda's DNA in Meredith's room, given the number of samples they took.

They found Meredith's fingerprints on the door of Amanda's closet. I shudder to think if it had been the other way around.

It's helpful to be able to say, truthfully, that no trace of Amanda was ever found in the room where the murder took place. And indeed, that would not be the case if she had grappled with Meredith and participated in this horrific murder. But the complete absence of her DNA/fingerprints in any context is a mere coincidence. because of the clean up with the lamp

FYP

 

[RWVBWL]

Boy meets girl,

<snip>
no prior relationship between Guede and Knox,

Hiya Bill Williams+The Lurkers,

I went down to a beach in Los Angeles this morning to photograph a dude named Wesley Santos,
a black, Brazilian surfer. Just got off the plane to L.A. yesterday...
Dude is incredible, gonna be a top pro soon,
if he can get the surf contest criteria in-grained in his brain:




Here's a cool video,
on Surfline,
of Wesley doin' an insane maneuver!!!:
http://www.surfline.com/video/featured-clips/wesley-santos-backside-kerrupt_93587


Why the heck am I even posting this?
Simply because I met this hot lookin' chick on the beach, early this mornin',
a petite brunette, cute as heck, an Aussie, originally born in South Africa,
a photog too, she's a PR expert and into the Hollywood scene.
She's out at the crack of dawn shooting surfpix, tryin' to get "the shot"!
Hmmmm, I like!!!

After conversing, flirting, and hangin' out for an hour or so,
we split...

Guess what?
An hour later,
I've already got an email from her...

I LOVE SEX!!!
Just like Amanda+Raffaele do, as Meredith Kercher+Giacomo did, as Filomena does, as Laura does...

Guess what???
I might pursue her,
she's funny, young of mind+spirit, hot, luv's to dance...
And younger than I, hahaha...



But I wonder of something:
Why didn't Meredith NOR Amanda ever text Rudy Guede?
Why didn't Meredith NOR Amanda ever email Rudy Guede?

Heck, friends,
Why didn't Meredith ever even phone Rudy Guede?
"Hey, my boyfriend is outta town"...

It is with those simple thoughts in mind, that I wonder:
What the heck is Rudy Guede's DNA doing inside of Meredith's vagina?
Hmmmm...

 

[Jungle Jim]

Your whole post is a non sequitur, but the answer to your question is that Rudy sexually assaulted Meredith either before or after killing her.