How To Use Bitcoin – The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man

[fuelair]

I am still not remotely convinced.

 

[fuelair]

Not even a bit.

 

[Belz...]

Not even a bitcoin ?

 

[fuelair]

Nope - I am completely unperseuded.

 

[Belz...]

Are you odysseuded ?

 

[mhaze]

Nope - I am completely unperseuded.

nobody cares, of course, what you are or are not perseuded of.

bitcoin market cap is now in excess of half the nasdeq stocks market cap, which puts it in the medium cap range.

you know what?

my two dogs stand with you. They are unperseuded also.

 

[BenBurch]

MHaze! Man, I was seriously worried about you. Glad you're OK.

 

[Prometheus]

You're smarter than your response to my assertion would indicate.

I'm also smart enough to realize that how something is treated as a matter of law, and how it's actually used by real people in the real world are not the same thing.

Regulatory authority in the US does in fact lay out what is currency. Based on that, various sets of laws and regulation follow lockstep and apply to dealers, traders and users of said currency (or alternately, if it was said to be a commodity, differing interpretations would be enforced).

No. Regulatory authority lays out what will be treated as currency by said regulatory authority. Much of that same regulation applies to other financial instruments that are not regarded as currency because they are not generally accepted as such. No matter what regulatory authority says, bitcoin will not be an actual currency until it achieves general acceptance.

ETA: Besides, the US government says you are wrong:

The FINCEN definition of currency: The coin and paper money of the United States or any other country that is (1) designated as legal tender and that (2) circulates and (3) is customarily accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance.

There's nothing lame about an argument from authority that lays out fines and criminal penalties for your behavior, enforcable from said authority within it's jurisdictions.

Provided you confine your argument to said fines and criminal penalties, sure. But that's not what you're doing.

BTW could you link to that pizza place you ordered from? I'm kinda hungry but I haven't yet found a delivery place that will accept my bitcoins.

 

[mhaze]

I'm also smart enough to realize that how something is treated as a matter of law, and how it's actually used by real people in the real world are not the same thing.



No. Regulatory authority lays out what will be treated as currency by said regulatory authority. Much of that same regulation applies to other financial instruments that are not regarded as currency because they are not generally accepted as such. No matter what regulatory authority says, bitcoin will not be an actual currency until it achieves general acceptance.

ETA: Besides, the US government says you are wrong:






Provided you confine your argument to said fines and criminal penalties, sure. But that's not what you're doing.

BTW could you link to that pizza place you ordered from? I'm kinda hungry but I haven't yet found a delivery place that will accept my bitcoins.

you need to take a look at fin-2013-g001, then check google for pizza and bitcoins.

btw, the pizza meme illustrates, not whether or not i can get a pizza with bitcoins, but the level of general ignorance of those in the discussion. It is a trap, and something to laugh at people about, who do not understand that they have been trapped, and who continue pushing the boundaries of righteous ignorance.

i won't agree to discuss your opinions about what currency is and is not, as it is formally defined in the above cited document. your opinion is functionally irrelevant as for that matter is mine, and what matters is actual regulation, and actual use of the currency in question.

 

[Prometheus]

you need to take a look at fin-2013-g001, then check google for pizza and bitcoins.

btw, the pizza meme illustrates, not whether or not i can get a pizza with bitcoins, but the level of general ignorance of those in the discussion. It is a trap, and something to laugh at people about, who do not understand that they have been trapped, and who continue pushing the boundaries of righteous ignorance.

i won't agree to discuss your opinions about what currency is and is not, as it is formally defined in the above cited document. your opinion is functionally irrelevant as for that matter is mine, and what matters is actual regulation, and actual use of the currency in question.

Gee...er...thanks for citing fin-2013-g001:

In contrast to real currency, "virtual" currency is a medium of exchange that operates like a currency in some environments, but does not have all the attributes of real currency. In particular, virtual currency does not have legal tender status in any jurisdiction.

Like I said, the US Government says you are wrong.

 

[psionl0]

No. Regulatory authority lays out what will be treated as currency by said regulatory authority. Much of that same regulation applies to other financial instruments that are not regarded as currency because they are not generally accepted as such. No matter what regulatory authority says, bitcoin will not be an actual currency until it achieves general acceptance.

She's not even a little bit pregnant?

 

[mhaze]

Gee...er...thanks for citing fin-2013-g001:

Like I said, the US Government says you are wrong.

From my prior comment...

i won't agree to discuss your opinions about what currency is and is not, as it is formally defined in the above cited document. your opinion is functionally irrelevant as for that matter is mine, and what matters is actual regulation, and actual use of the currency in question.

That's for brevity and direction in the conversation. You can continue mincing words and subdefinitions and working your keyboards, but you'll get no responses.

 

[Prometheus]

From my prior comment...

i won't agree to discuss your opinions about what currency is and is not, as it is formally defined in the above cited document. your opinion is functionally irrelevant as for that matter is mine, and what matters is actual regulation, and actual use of the currency in question.

That's for brevity and direction in the conversation. You can continue mincing words and subdefinitions and working your keyboards, but you'll get no responses.

Erm...Get real?

Actually, I'm fine with leaving my opinion out of it and going strictly with the formal definition which you cite. Perhaps I highligted too much of it last time:

fin-2013-g001:

In contrast to real currency, "virtual" currency is a medium of exchange that operates like a currency in some environments,
but does not have all the attributes of real currency. In particular, virtual currency does not have legal tender status in any jurisdiction.

I must admit, though, I'm not sure how actually quoting the very definition that you claim to be using constitutes "mincing words".

 

[Prometheus]

She's not even a little bit pregnant?

Actually, she is, but what does that have to do with whether or not Bitcoin achieves general acceptance?

 

[psionl0]

Actually, she is, but what does that have to do with whether or not Bitcoin achieves general acceptance?

"General acceptance" is such a vague term. Relatively few people are involved with bitcoin ATM. Of those who are, some will use it as a currency but most will use it as a speculative commodity or just as a store of value.

If you claim that "general" (ie widespread) acceptance is the defining feature of a currency and not what the US authorities deem it to be then you are on shaky ground.

 

[mhaze]

Actually, she is, but what does that have to do with whether or not Bitcoin achieves general acceptance?

wtf does that mean and who cares?

Does reddit have general acc? Tumblr? eBay? PayPal?

Certainly jref does not.

I get the distinct impression somehow that you want to say things that could maybe be right and because you don't know the subject that means vague. Not terribly constructive IMHO, why not go read nakamoto's paper on bitcoin then return?

 

[Prometheus]

wtf does that mean and who cares?

This response applies equally well to the comment I was responding to.

Does reddit have general acc? Tumblr? eBay? PayPal?

Certainly jref does not.

Are you now arguing that reddit, et al are currencies? "general acceptance" is a part of the definition of the word "currency" in every dictionary I've looked in.

I get the distinct impression somehow that you want to say things that could maybe be right and because you don't know the subject that means vague. Not terribly constructive IMHO, why not go read nakamoto's paper on bitcoin then return?

What I am trying to say is that at present, bitcoin fulfills neither the dictionary, nor the formal FINCEN definitions of "currency".

 

[mhaze]

...Are you now arguing that reddit, et al are currencies? "general acceptance" is a part of the definition of the word "currency" in every dictionary I've looked in.

Of course not. I am asking about the relevance of general acceptance for some randomly chosen items. I am sure that you can see the problem therein. And I am certain that you can see that since (following YOUR) logic, JREF does not have any sort of general acceptance, any opinions expressed on its forum should be disregarded.

(little logical problem there???)

What I am trying to say is that at present, bitcoin fulfills neither the dictionary, nor the formal FINCEN definitions of "currency".

To get to that assertion you have to ignore FINCEN's actual words and ignore virtual versus real. What I have actually asked you is WHY? Why bother with such a silly thing? It does not get you anywhere in a discussion.

FINCEN will regulate bitcoin and fine people who disobey. People will engage in bitcoin transactions. They could not care less what you have to say, those 60K people per day currently using the bitcoin.

Neither do I - and as I mentioned earlier, none of those people care what my opinion is, any more than yours. Numerically the transaction counts will probable double in the next six months. That is the trend. Again, your opinion of the finer nuances of a word, currency, can be noted as your opinion, but they are not relevant.

One last time - here is an example of the problem (that you are exhibiting) not the solutions. At the first of this link, check out the video. They are serious people, trying to talk about something they dont understand - bitcoin. Then read the comments.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bgg5v/

Then ask - which side do I want to be on? That of the talking heads, or the commenters?

LOL....

 

[Prometheus]

Of course not. I am asking about the relevance of general acceptance for some randomly chosen items. I am sure that you can see the problem therein. And I am certain that you can see that since (following YOUR) logic, JREF does not have any sort of general acceptance, any opinions expressed on its forum should be disregarded.

Well that's quite a leap you've made there. I note that you just completely skip the rather obvious and simple explanation already given to you. The relevance of "general accptance" to the question of whether bitcoin is a currency is that "general acceptance" is an integral part of the dictionary definition of the word "currency". You're attempting to gloss over this rather glaring truth with a lame red herring.

To get to that assertion you have to ignore FINCEN's actual words and ignore virtual versus real. What I have actually asked you is WHY? Why bother with such a silly thing? It does not get you anywhere in a discussion.

Now that is some high quality spin doctoring there! I'm the one who actually quoted FINCEN's actual words while you just allude to them, mischaracterize their content, and insist that I'm the one who needs to go and re-read them. If I ever need a good PR manager to get me out of some really sticky scandal, I would hire you in a heartbeat!

FINCEN will regulate bitcoin and fine people who disobey.

I would not expect anything less of them. Just because bitcoin is not a real currency doesn't mean it can't be used for a variety of shenanigans from money laundering to smuggling. Just like other financial instruments that are not currency either.

People will engage in bitcoin transactions. They could not care less what you have to say, those 60K people per day currently using the bitcoin.

There are more people than that trading manufacturer coupons and discount codes all over the 'net. Doesn't make those things currencies either.

Neither do I - and as I mentioned earlier, none of those people care what my opinion is, any more than yours. Numerically the transaction counts will probable double in the next six months. That is the trend. Again, your opinion of the finer nuances of a word, currency, can be noted as your opinion, but they are not relevant.

Where did you get the idea that the actual definitions published in FINCEN regulations and dictionaries, quoted verbatim, constitute my "opinion"? I was not aware that these recognized authorities deferred only to my own humble whims. You must have a pretty high opinion of me to honor me so!

One last time - here is an example of the problem (that you are exhibiting) not the solutions. At the first of this link, check out the video. They are serious people, trying to talk about something they dont understand - bitcoin. Then read the comments.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bgg5v/

That video is nothing but a standard media fluff piece. So what?

Then ask - which side do I want to be on? That of the talking heads, or the commenters?

LOL....

Well, the short answer is that I'm not interested in taking sides at all. I love the idea of an upstart phenomenon like bitcoin coming along and making fat cats quake in their boots, but I'm just not an early adopter. If/when it becomes a currency I might get involved beyond the level of interesting discussion.

Look, I agree with most bitcoiner's claims about what BT can do. But what it can't do (yet), are the things that I use currency for, so I'm not yet interested.

 

[mhaze]

.....I agree with most bitcoiner's claims about what BT can do. But what it can't do (yet), are the things that I use currency for, so I'm not yet interested.

Makes no difference to me if you are interested in something or not interested in something or anything at all. There were a lot of people like that in Europe, very rational people. Then came Cyprus....