Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

MOM argues that toxicology report should be allowed in evidence:
http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/052113_reply_limine_toxicology.pdf

The active THC was measured at l.5 ng/mL whereas the metabolite was measured at 7.3 ng/mL. This level is sufficient to cause some impairment (although it is considered to be less than that required for a DUI arrest) according to the State’s toxicologist, Dr. Bruce Goldberger....

Dr. Goldberger opined that Trayvon Martin may have used marijuana within a couple of hours of his death or that it could have been longer than that depending on whether Trayvon Martin was a chronic user or an occasional user. From other evidence in the case, it is known that Trayvon Martin brought marijuana with him from South Florida to use while he was in Sanford...

So the States own toxicologist contradicts all the experts here who claimed he couldn't possibly have been under the influence of drugs at the time of the incident.

You still really don't understand the concept of the "self-serving statement", do you? O'Mara doesn't include any actual quotes for Dr. Goldberger, and I'd bet my hat that he would beg to differ with O'Mara's characterization of what he "opined". But throwing out unsubstantiated claims of "the victim may have been impaired" based on a miniscule amount of THC in the bloodstream is far more inflammatory than it is probative, and it's the kind of thing judges don't allow unless it has some relevance to what happened. What would that have to do with why George shot and killed an unarmed teenager? He'd smoked pot the day before? You do realize that all scientific research shows that pot makes you LESS likely to engage in violence, right? But George was on two kinds of drugs, both linked to aggression and mood swings. Should we bring that into the trial as well? In the end, George will win or lose based on the story he told and how it stands up to scrutiny when compared to other witnesses and forensic evidence.

I notice that in the latest evidence drop from O'Mara, he also included flyers from the "New Black Panthers", that fringe group that only Fox News viewers think is a scary thing.

So basically George's whole defense is boiling down to "blackety black! reefer madness! blackety black!"

Funny how this morphed from a case that would be easily won in an immunity hearing to one in which the defense is dredging up racism and discredited fears of weed crazed maniacs in the hopes of finding a jury of scared bigots.

 

[Giz]

When did theft become evidence of violence?

It shows lack of moral character and a reason why he wouldn't like people keeping an eye on him. Character and motive.

 

[johnny karate]

It shows lack of moral character and a reason why he wouldn't like people keeping an eye on him. Character and motive.

I see.

So that Martin might have been involved in a burglary at some point (even though that can't be proven) can be directly linked to a motive for his alleged attempted murder of Zimmerman.

Again, the reasoning on display is unassailable.

So... for everyone who seems to think things like this should be admissable during this trial, do you also think the following should be admissable:

- Zimmerman's assault of a law enforcement officer
- The restraining order filed against Zimmerman
- The sexual abuse allegations against Zimmerman
- Zimmerman's deception of the court during the first bond hearing

And if not, why not?

 

[quadraginta]

It's amazing how convinced some people are by a narrative that we know lacks sufficient evidence to merit an immunity hearing.

It gets repeatedly asserted that Martin assaulted and beat Zimmerman as if this was some kind of proven and obvious fact, and yet Zimmerman's defense team is forgoing the opportunity to present these proven and obvious facts and give their guy a free chance at acquittal.

Talk about a disconnect from reality.

If you're suggesting that people who disagree with you are suffering from delusions, let's not go there.
The basis of beliefs that Zimmerman was being assaulted by Martin stem from the original media coverage of witnesses statements. I don't believe recanting these statements later after watching Zimmerman go into hiding after receiving several hundred death threats diminishes that. YMMV.
As for Zimmerman's "free chance at acquittal" have you considered Zimmerman may be pursuing this as the only way to truly clear his name and come out of hiding later? If he gets out of this through a legal technicality the public won't find him not guilty, just no longer charged with a crime.

What "legal technicality" are you referring to? Surely not the Stand Your Ground law, and I'm pretty sure that's what jk was talking about.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

So the States own toxicologist contradicts all the experts here who claimed he couldn't possibly have been under the influence of drugs at the time of the incident.

Any chance you could provide a few links to some of those experts here who have been making such claims?

 

[johnny karate]

MOM argues that toxicology report should be allowed in evidence:
http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/052113_reply_limine_toxicology.pdf

The active THC was measured at l.5 ng/mL whereas the metabolite was measured at 7.3 ng/mL. This level is sufficient to cause some impairment (although it is considered to be less than that required for a DUI arrest) according to the State’s toxicologist, Dr. Bruce Goldberger....

Dr. Goldberger opined that Trayvon Martin may have used marijuana within a couple of hours of his death or that it could have been longer than that depending on whether Trayvon Martin was a chronic user or an occasional user. From other evidence in the case, it is known that Trayvon Martin brought marijuana with him from South Florida to use while he was in Sanford...

So the States own toxicologist contradicts all the experts here who claimed he couldn't possibly have been under the influence of drugs at the time of the incident.

First of all, you know what no one here ever argued?

This:

he couldn't possibly have been under the influence of drugs at the time of the incident.

What was argued - and with substantiation - was that the THC levels in Matin's bloodstream were not enough to impair him or enough to determine if he was impaired.

To wit:

But Larry Kobilinsky, professor of forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, told the AP that the THC amount was so low that it may have been ingested days earlier and played no role in Martin's behavior.

And:

Dr. Michael Policastro, a toxicologist, cautioned against reading too much into the blood THC levels, adding that one cannot make a direct correlation between those findings and a level of intoxication.

​

That being said, I think the defense might have grounds for this to be entered into evidence. I can see how Martin's level of impairment might be an important issue.

However, the prosecution is certainly going to have their own experts to rebut whatever the defense puts forward.

"Sufficient to cause some impairment" isn't exactly a slam dunk, is it? How sufficient? How much impairment? Can we say for certain he was impaired?

To put this in perspective for you, Zimmerman is on a prescribed medication know as Temazepam. Some of the known side effects for that drug include aggression, violence, overstimulation and agitation.

Now, do you feel that tells the whole story, or is there perhaps a little more context to that information that might be important?

And I'll leave you with this: A lot of people smoke pot. And it is becoming more and more socially acceptable. I'm willing to bet one or two pot-smokers might find themselves on the jury.

In this day and age, I don't think the angle that a teenage boy had a little marijuana in his system and he was therefore more likely to have violently attacked Zimmerman is going to play.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You still really don't understand the concept of the "self-serving statement", do you? O'Mara doesn't include any actual quotes for Dr. Goldberger, and I'd bet my hat that he would beg to differ with O'Mara's characterization of what he "opined".

Your basis for disbelieving is what, exactly ? Personal incredulity?

The fact that he did not quote him verbatim somehow proves to you that he must be testing Dr. Goldbergers words ?

But throwing out unsubstantiated claims of "the victim may have been impaired" based on a miniscule amount of THC in the bloodstream is far more inflammatory than it is probative, and it's the kind of thing judges don't allow unless it has some relevance to what happened. What would that have to do with why George shot and killed an unarmed teenager? He'd smoked pot the day before? You do realize that all scientific research shows that pot makes you LESS likely to engage in violence, right?.
<snip>

http://adai.uw.edu/marijuana/factsheets/aggression.htm

...
However, sometimes when marijuana is used it can cause fear, anxiety, panic or paranoia, which can result in an aggressive outburst. For most people, however, once the effects of the drug wear off, their behavior gradually improves.

Studies show that violence can occur more often among people who use marijuana regularly, rather than those who use it occasionally or not at all. It is unclear why this is the case, but it may be because people with violent tendencies can also have a range of other psychosocial problems and are therefore more likely to use marijuana. marijuana is also part of the illegal drug market, which may increase the chances of violence occurring in some social interactions.
...


No, I didn't realize that people who are high are incapable of making poor decisions, or assaulting someone. I am sure you can provide links to that effect ?

Or is your argument now that TM was too high to assault GZ ?

 

[Unabogie]

This whole reefer madness angle is kind of funny. On the one hand, the defense wants to claim that Trayvon was impaired, swaying, and high on pot at the time George murdered him. In other words, he was so high he couldn't stand straight! He could barely walk! And yet 15 minutes later, this 158 pound pothead got the better of the NON-HIGH, NON-DRUNK, and 50 pounds heavier former bouncer? 15 minutes later he was stronger, faster, more adept, and had perfect reflexes and aim!

Does the claim that on top of being 50 pounds lighter and 11 years younger, Trayvon was also PHYSICALLY IMPAIRED really help George at all?

I don't think they've thought this through.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

And I'll stand by that.

We'll see.

Motions can be opposed for whatever reason. The legality is determined by the judge's ruling.

Case in point: O'Mara manufactured a fantasy about discovery violations that was proven in court to have no legal merit. But there was nothing stopping him from filing those bogus motions in the first place.

The prosecution would have opposed the motion if they were worried about allowing the defense access to Martin's school records.

They didn't, so they're not.

Yes, they are not worried about the defense accessing the school records, they are just worried about them talking about them, or anything at all related to TMs character in court.

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/051013_limine_trayvon.pdf

 

[johnny karate]

Sure the Tox report should be included particularly as one of Zimmerman's comment to NEN was something like he looks like he is on drugs which the report certainly verifies that in fact, Martin was.

Do you imagine Zimmerman has some kind of special power that allows him to know the chemical composition of someone's blood?

Because Zimmerman's statement is otherwise meaningless. There a myriad of different drugs that all elicit a myriad of different behaviors. Zimmerman attributes zero behaviors to Martin's supposed intoxication.

"He looks like he's on drugs" tells us absolutely nothing about what Martin was actually doing, and this seems more like an argument being made to maybe prove Zimmerman was right about something in some vague, indefinable way.

 

[KatieG]

Does it really make sense that Zimmerman would call police THEN initiate the assault with them minutes away? As for Zimmerman holding him there remember he had nearly completed a criminal justice degree, I think he'd know better.

snipped for brevity

This is incorrect. From the Orlando Sentinel:

Zimmerman, 28, first enrolled at the college in 2003 and was working toward a vocational certificate to become an insurance agent. He re-enrolled in 2009 and was working toward an Associate in Arts degree in a general studies program, according to the college.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, they are not worried about the defense accessing the school records, they are just worried about them talking about them, or anything at all related to TMs character in court.

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/051013_limine_trayvon.pdf

And this goes exactly to the point I have been making, which is that there is a difference between what potential evidence the defense is allowed to examine and what actual evidence is allowed into the trial.

The defense can examine just about anything they want to, but only what is deemed relevant will actually be admissable as evidence. You seem to have been conflating those two things.

And as to what the prosecution is worried about, yeah, they don't want a bunch of information that might prejudice the jury against Martin brought into the trial. Imagine that.

How hard to you think O'Mara would fight to keep Zimmerman's assault of a law enforcement officer out of the trial?

Or the restraining order that was taken out against him?

Or the allegations of sexual abuse made against him?

Or anything that might prejudice the jury against his client?

 

[Wolrab]

You forgot the "possibly in self defense" part.

No evidence of that.

It wasn't mere battery if M was just trying to protect himself.

Protect himself from what? A cell phone?

We have yet to see any evidence either way.

The only evidence is GZ was obviously beaten and TM had marks on his hand. Consistent with at least one punch. TM would not get further injuries if he was slamming GZ's head on the ground.

And yet, according to Z, M first punched Z when Z reached for Z's pocket. For what, M would not know.

So, even according to Z's own story M has reason to defend himself.

Nope.

If the state can prove even more than that, like that Z had his gun out before Z says it came into play, then Z has big problems.

No evidence of that. The wound to TM is consistent with GZ's story.
What we know from Z's own story:

1) M saw someone following him, at night, when no one is around outside at all, just them.

No reason to attack GZ.

2) M tried to get away from the stranger.

He should have continued home.

3) Z continued to follow M admittedly after M tried to get away.

As was his right.

4) M, seeing that the stranger was not going to stop following him, asked Z what he wants (using a euphemism "what is your problem").

There is TM's mistake.

5)The stranger says "I don't have a problem" while reaching for his pocket.

So? You aren't allowed preemptive strikes. TM should have run instead of waiting in ambush.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hanni...eorge-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=3

How do we know that the gun in the waist holster was not either showing, or a noticeable bulge?

We don't know. That doesn't allow wholesale speculation.

 

[Dan O.]

I'm not following your logic.

In fact, you are almost exactly describing what Z says happened. Except for the fact that M did not "succeed" in eliminating the threat.

Have you ever swatted a wasp? When you swat a wasp you don't use a flimsy fly swatter. You make sure you take the wasp down for good because you know it is armed and will be comming after you if you only stun it.

Martin couldn't know at the time if he was dealing with a harmless bug or a deadly wasp that was pulling out his stinger. With a witness at hand and no gun in the pocket Zimmerman reached for, Zimmerman was no longer considered a threat and could be let up. There would follow an apology in the form of name calling and that would be it. If however Martin knew that Zimmerman was carrying a gun he would have assumed that Zimmerman would pull that gun and shoot him at the first opportunity. The only option at that point if he couldn't disarm him would be to crush the wasp. Since no crushing took place and there was ample opportunity in the 2+ minutes they were screaming for help, Martin must not have believed it was likely that Zimmerman was packing.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

snipped for brevity

Does it really make sense that Zimmerman would call police THEN initiate the assault with them minutes away? As for Zimmerman holding him there remember he had nearly completed a criminal justice degree, I think he'd know better.

This is incorrect. From the Orlando Sentinel:

Zimmerman, 28, first enrolled at the college in 2003 and was working toward a vocational certificate to become an insurance agent. He re-enrolled in 2009 and was working toward an Associate in Arts degree in a general studies program, according to the college.

It doesn't look incorrect according to Reuters , which says:
Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

So, does Reuters trump the orlando sentinel ?

Also, his school records, which the state "mistakenly" released, said he was going for an AA in criminal justice.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This whole reefer madness angle is kind of funny. On the one hand, the defense wants to claim that Trayvon was impaired, swaying, and high on pot at the time George murdered him. In other words, he was so high he couldn't stand straight! He could barely walk! And yet 15 minutes later, this 158 pound pothead got the better of the NON-HIGH, NON-DRUNK, and 50 pounds heavier former bouncer? 15 minutes later he was stronger, faster, more adept, and had perfect reflexes and aim!
Does the claim that on top of being 50 pounds lighter and 11 years younger, Trayvon was also PHYSICALLY IMPAIRED really help George at all?

I don't think they've thought this through.

I hilited the strawmen you are attacking. The defense team arguing that that TM might have been high, because the states own doctor can't say he wasn't high, based on the amount of THC in his system, and because they have video where he either can't stand up straight, or is intentionally humping the counter.

 

[ABC10]

Do you imagine Zimmerman has some kind of special power that allows him to know the chemical composition of someone's blood?

Because Zimmerman's statement is otherwise meaningless. There a myriad of different drugs that all elicit a myriad of different behaviors. Zimmerman attributes zero behaviors to Martin's supposed intoxication.

"He looks like he's on drugs" tells us absolutely nothing about what Martin was actually doing, and this seems more like an argument being made to maybe prove Zimmerman was right about something in some vague, indefinable way.

No, I don't imagine he has any special powers except what we all have, an ability to make observations about people's behavior. In any event, Zimmerman's ovservation that Martin "looks like he may be on drugs" is validated by the Tox report.

 

[Dan O.]

No, I don't imagine he has any special powers except what we all have, an ability to make observations about people's behavior. In any event, Zimmerman's ovservation that Martin "looks like he may be on drugs" is validated by the Tox report.

Finally we have someone that can provide a proper interpretation of that toxicology report for us.

In your professional opinion, given the levels of THC and metabolites in Trayvon's system, what quantity of marijuana consumption and what time delay would thse readings be consistent with? I assume you have studies and or tables that will support your findings. Could you link to those so that we can confirm your opinion?

 

[sgtbaker]

It shows lack of moral character and a reason why he wouldn't like people keeping an eye on him. Character and motive.

I think that to get from point A) he had potentially stolen jewelry and a burglary tool in his bag to B) reacts violently to being followed requires somewhat of a leap. Again, if his school records, social media accounts, and any other history they can dig up shows he has violent tendencies, I will change my position but at this time, I don't see how possessing stolen jewelry is evidence of violence.

 

[Unabogie]

I hilited the strawmen you are attacking. The defense team arguing that that TM might have been high, because the states own doctor can't say he wasn't high, based on the amount of THC in his system, and because they have video where he either can't stand up straight, or is intentionally humping the counter.

That's a neat trick, using "high" as if it were a medical term.

Here's what Mr. West said:

The active THC was measured at 1.5 ng/ml whereas the metabolite was measured at 7.3 ng/ml. This level is sufficient to cause some impairment (although it is connsidered to be less than that required for a DUI arrest) according to the state’s toxicologist, Dr. Bruce Goldberger.

What is impairment? What does "some" mean in this context? Who knows, as West is being purposefully vague and deceptive here. All we do know is that he wasn't impaired enough to qualify for a DUI, which means not very high at all. What we also know is that pot makes you hungry, lazy, and slow. We also know that Trayvon was in a convenience store with $20 cash and didn't buy bags of chips and a pack of ding dongs. We know he didn't have any drugs on his person after George murdered him.

And it comes back to common sense and why this is so stupid of the defense to smear the victim this way. If they want to claim that Trayvon was so impaired as to somehow have caused him to attack this stranger and try to murder him for no reason, then they can't also claim that he was bigger, stronger, and faster than the killer in spite of his "impairment". And you can bet at least a few folks will be on this jury who have smoked weed and will be happy to tell the other jurors about how it made them giggle a lot and eat Doritos. Seriously, I thought O'Mara could do better than Reefer Madness. It's ludicrous.

Finally, let's look at some facts here. Trayvon was at 1.5 ng/ml of THC. Here's what that means.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/People/injury/research/job185drugs/cannabis.htm

Interpretation of Blood Concentrations: It is difficult to establish a relationship between a person's THC blood or plasma concentration and performance impairing effects. Concentrations of parent drug and metabolite are very dependent on pattern of use as well as dose. THC concentrations typically peak during the act of smoking, while peak 11-OH THC concentrations occur approximately 9-23 minutes after the start of smoking. Concentrations of both analytes decline rapidly and are often < 5 ng/mL at 3 hours. Significant THC concentrations (7 to 18 ng/mL) are noted following even a single puff or hit of a marijuana cigarette. Peak plasma THC concentrations ranged from 46-188 ng/mL in 6 subjects after they smoked 8.8 mg THC over 10 minutes. Chronic users can have mean plasma levels of THC-COOH of 45 ng/mL, 12 hours after use; corresponding THC levels are, however, less than 1 ng/mL. Following oral administration, THC concentrations peak at 1-3 hours and are lower than after smoking. Dronabinol and THC-COOH are present in equal concentrations in plasma and concentrations peak at approximately 2-4 hours after dosing.

I hope you're seeing the problem here for old George.