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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I note that you sidestepped the question rather then actually answered it. I also noted that you failed to answer the first question at all.

Pretty sure I said no to accepting contamination on the bra.

Are you willing to accept that contamination of the Bra hook occured at all? If not, how do you explain the DNA that was from neither MK or RS that was found on it?

Are you talking about the other partial DNA markers that could have been anyone and even possibly Amanda Knox herself. I have no Idea, just like I don't know how Raff's got on there, maybe they all touched it at sometime, from what I understand, Raff's was plentiful and the others were very weak.


And how do you explain tha lack of RS's DNA on the strap where it was held to rip it of, but rather RG's there, and the aspriated blood on MK's breasts, if the bra was not removed untill long after she died, and by Raffele as you suggested


What makes you think he had to hold onto the strap to rip it off? I clearly staged that I have no Idea why Raff would do this, I have no idea, I don't believe in contamination, maybe it was planted. There you go, I've answered all the question you said I skipped, but it looks like I just answered then with basically the same reply as the first time.
 
An assumption you can't back up. In fact a throw of just 5m a second, or 18km/h would easily suffice for such a shot and would be easy enough. This would require a force of 25N, easy enough for a athletic young adult. Of course it would require lobbing the rock in an parabolic targetory, but this is a natural throw anyway, especially for a basketball player

Because I was in a hurry I failed to do the math for parabolic arc. Looking at the distance between the drive and the window on Google Maps, it is well under 5m, but let's say 5m for fun. To get that 5m in 1 sec the rock would have to have a horizontal velocity of 5m/s. To end up at the same height as it was thrown it would also have to have a vertical velocity component of 5m/s. Thus using Pythagoras we can say that the velocity vector would be a little over 7m/s and at a 45° angle. Easily doable even with a 10lb rock.
 
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I feel sorry for you man. you really got some issues. you act like the trial testimony doesn't exist where it clearly is demonstrated Patrick's lawyer, not Mignini, talks about the she devil thing which is posed in more of a question which is little more than is she innocent (an angel as she looks in court) or in reality is she guilt, therefore a devil, that he spiced up with a little dramatic flair.

Barbie Nadaue, who lives in Italy, speaks Italian, and has been to most of the Knox court hearings, has written that Mignini did not ever propose a satantic rite theory. she said that the police investigators did bounce around the idea that it associated with Halloween in some way but that was pre-trial before Mignini's involvement.

again if Mignini said this was his motive we should have several quotes of him talking about it. in reality even if somehow your lies could be made true, all that matters is what motive theory he talks about in his closing statement at the end of the trial, and that was it was about tensions b/t the two girls over Knox's active sexlife and maybe over money

Tell me about it.......
 
Kaosium, I have little issue with these feelings towards Mignini and Maresca, personally I believe that they have shown via their actions that they are both bottom feeding scum. The Kerchers however are in this via no fault of their own. They lost a daughter and trust the authorities. It's not their fault that Mignini and Maresca are lying to them, and to be honest, it not surprising that they believe those lies, a lot of people do, and some of those are likely far more aquainted with the case than the Kerchers are. At first glance the case is compelling, the mixed DNA, the footprints, the DNA on the knife and bra clasp, the confessions. If that is all you look at, and I suspect that it is what the Kerchers have looked at, and your counsel is constantly telling you that the Defence is a bunch of lies, it is unsurprising that this is what you would believe. The Kerchers are major victims in this. First Rudy stole their daughter from them, asnd then the police, Mignini and Maresca stole any chance they had of truly understanding and coming to peace with the case. Disparaging them at all is plain wrong.



I'd like to say here that I totally agree with this post.
 
I think a number of people have stated how they got involved in following this case, but I haven’t. I’m not going to say that I believed they were guilty and changed my mind. I assumed they were guilty. What I knew about the case was via the media and so I knew that the police had found AKs bloody footprints, that there was mixed AM/MK blood in the bathroom, that they had DNA evidence on a knife that proved it was the murder weapon, that witnesses placed them at the scene of the crime, etc. To me there was no reason to assume anything else but guilt. I did poke my nose into the thread when it first appeared, but after about the first page decided that I just couldn’t be bothered, they were guilty, that was it.

It was quite some time until I came back to the case, just before the appeal was to be heard. The only reason that I came back was because the thread had grown so long that I was wondering what could possibly keep it going for so long in what I still assumed was a cut and dried case.

A little background on me. At 15 I was told by a teacher to never accept anything you don’t check out yourself. Something I have held close ever since. I have always been interested in science, and I have Physics, Chemistry, Computing, and Psychology credits in the papers I did at University. I have also always been interested in space travel, geology, and astronomy. In 2001 I watched a program on TV about how the Apollo Program was hoaxed, and it stunned me how bad the claims were and how anyone could believe it. In 2003 I joined a forum here in New Zealand and discovered that people actually did believe it. I started to debunk the myths and lies of the Hoax claimants along with another poster, who eventually recommended a few places for reading material to further my knowledge, one being Phil Plait’s Bad Astronomy. I joined up and one of my first debunking efforts was Richard Hoagland’s Glass Worms on Mars. I then dived into Apollo boots and all, joining the ApolloHoax.net site I and learned a lot on the way. I even spent time at GPL fight for reason and science against Apollo Hoaxsters and Planet Xers there.

In about 2005 I came across another strange species on the net, the 9/11 Denier. After a while they were banned from Bad Astronomy, which had become the BAUT Forums by then, and so when I had a curly question I wanted an answer to in 2007 I found my way here. After an initially rather hostile reception (I never did find out the answer to my question so I still don’t know if the Seconds from Disaster program was right when it stated that parts of the wing of Flight 77 were found dug into the ground in front of the Pentagon) I ended up fighting 9/11 and Apollo Deniers here. In about 2011 I got sick of going around in circles and basically walked out of the Conspiracies threads altogether because they weren’t going anywhere.

So that is me, I have spent over 10 years dealing with people who believe conspiracy theories, I know their tactics, and their arguments well.

So what does all this have to do with the Knox/Sollecito case? As I said, I poked my head in and had a look at what was going on a little while before the appeal was heard. At the time the Time of Death was being discussed. I listened to both sides and curious, I decided to follow my old teacher’s advice, and check it out myself. After about a week of reading various sources I had to come to the conclusion that the prosecution had the time of death well off, that the science just did not allow for death to have occurred after 11:30pm as they were claiming. That was a red flag.

There have been a number of cases in New Zealand where there have apparently been miscarriages of justice. David Bain who was accused of murdering five family members, now found Not Guilty in a retrial, Peter Ellis, caught up in the witch hunt of child care sex abuse cases, released but still fighting to clear his name, Scott Watson, still in jail for a double homicide he most likely did not commit, Arthur Allen Thomas, jailed by a police officer planting evidence, pardoned nine years later, a royal inquiry finding him innocent. I had followed these, and looked into the Arthur Allen Thomas one since I was a little young at the time. Another thing that drew me to mysteries was that the wife of a family friend had been murdered, and for some time he was suspected as the killer, finally after the body was found it was written off as Suicide, even though there were classic signs of murder. The reason being that since they knew by then that the husband could not have done it (he had a strong alibi and away from the house at the time of her disappearance) he was the only one they had been after. Once that fell through they had no one so closed it as a suicide. Seeing how the police worked in these cases and what went wrong in the investigations and created holes in case lead me to have a good idea of what to look for.

So I had a red flag. This led me to looking deeper into the case. I started reading up, starting with the pages and pages of the thread here, then elsewhere. I started seeing the same hallmarks of poor police work and bad science I saw in other cases. That made me worried, was what I assumed wrong. So I started working on a time line. I followed what he PIPs were saying, Camera sightings, MK coming home, added what I could find. I tried my best to use physical evidence first and then witnesses if they existed. It took a bit, but after a while I had managed to construct a reasonable timeline for a solo killing by RG followed by a police investigation that was quick to focus onto the quirky American because of her behaviour. Things fell into place relatively easily from the murder to how the police investigation progressed and what likely caused them to go in each direction, e.g. the text message and AK meeting up with PL cementing the police’s suspicions that they were both involved.

Once I had built a reasonable and consistent timeline for innocent I started trying to build one for guilt. I couldn’t. No matter what I tried, I couldn’t get a timeline that was consistent with the evidence, the science, and actually made some sort of sense. That really worried me, so I started asking for help, and ran into a brick wall. None of the PGPs I asked would help, all I got were glib remarks and claims that it had all been done before, and to go and read the Massei Report.

So I did, and that didn’t help me, if anything it made my suspicions that my initial assumptions were way off base. Nothing added up. Most of what I had accepted as true, wasn’t, even according to the Court Ruling that found them guilty. Worse most of the stuff that it did accept was in reality little more than speculation and guesswork without as lot of hard science and evidence to back it up and any chance of creating a rational believable timeline exploded. My BS buzzer was ringing loudly and I had moved from a position of assuming guilt, to a position of reasonable doubt. The journey didn’t end there though. I started looking at the crime scene photos, reading more, watching the videos, bring back questions, questions the PIPs answered quickly and easily, questions that the PGPs avoided and refused to answer. By the time of the appeal I was leaning firmly to probably Not Guilty, but certainly reasonable doubt. The M&C report nailed it for me. After reading that I moved to fully innocent, the last possible doubts of guilt gone.

After the appeal and the Hellmann Report I didn’t see much point in sticking around. The PGPs were still acting like conspiracy theorists, and the pair had been freed. I figured that rationally had won, so I was rather surprised by the Supreme Court’s ruling. As a result I’m sort of popping back in to see if I missed anything, I will be interested in seeing their reasoning.

So that is my story. I don’t know AK or RS, I don’t particularly want to mean either of them any more then I want to meet David Bain. I believe that they are innocent from nothing more than because that is what the physical evidence actually says. The prosecution’s case is built on a house of cards and each pillar it sat on has been thoroughly examined and been found wanting, and regardless of what the SC tries to do, with the H&C report out there, nothing will prevent that being part of the new Appeal. It’s been shown; the police’s collection and testing methods have been discredited, and will be shown to be so again, and without that evidence, the whole house of cards crumbles.

Fascinating. I think a lot of people here on JREF have taken the same route you have. It's the long route.

I took a shortcut. Once I grasped the fact that Amanda Knox had collapsed in a midnight interrogation, incriminated herself, and accused someone who turned out to have an alibi, but had not said a word about her alleged accomplice who left a bloody hand print at the crime scene... I knew the whole case had to be a hoax. If she was involved, and they got her to admit it, she'd have rolled over on him in a heartbeat. "I was there, but Guede did it!"

I started to look closely at the details, and I quickly reached a point of moral certainty.

The PGP have been thrown off by the sustained and coordinated effort the authorities have made to avoid admitting a mistake. They think of that as a conspiracy theory like some of the ones you have worked to debunk. You have the benefit of knowing about other cases where the same thing has happened. I think that makes all the difference in the world, in terms of being able to make sense of the Meredith Kercher investigation and the mayhem it has spawned.
 
Once again, lurkers, do your own research. Don't believe either of us. In fat it is true that this is the way that Patrick's lawyer characterized Knox.

But don't believe either of us. (I also like the way he said, "That's another lie" when I've just proven it true!)

Lurhers - foakers, sounds a lot alike to me. There is a name for people who do this you know.....
 
Pretty sure I said no to accepting contamination on the bra.

Let's try this then. Why do you suppose the FBI requires a biological substance to be identified, otherwise their DNA analysis stops right there?


Why do you suppose Stefanoni didn't even attempt to identify a biological substance, despite there (originally) being plenty of sample on the bra clasp? Didn't it strike you as strange that the sample deteriorated in storage in a mere ~18 months?
 
I am disgusted by attacks on the Kerchers. I have said this many times. This kind of malicious sniping contributes nothing to what we are trying to discuss. It brings shame to those of us who support Amanda and Raffaele.

It's nice to know that most on both sides feel this way and only a very few do not. It does disgust me as well.
 
99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
That's at least the third time you've cracked that one.:). You need to brush up your repertoire. As I too have said before, the trouble with jokes about lawyers is lawyers don't think they're funny and no one else thinks they're jokes. I love that one :D

These guys more than stunk. They failed to do the climb. They failed to get copies of all cctv that either did or did not show AK and RS moving about the night of the murder, they failed to object enough to get the orders of the SC concerning the illegal interrogation upheld during the first trial...the prosecutor and judge simply sidestepped that by combining Lumumbas case with the murder case. They should have gone right back to the SC to report that corrupt maneuver. They failed to make an issue of not being provided DNA discovery material ...in every single trial phase. I dont think they even objected when Pacelli called Amanda a witch...or Lucerifina...how hard is it to rise and ask for proof of the allegations? Finally they didnt have the balls to defend the fact that Amanda was struck and abused by the police. This in light of facts that RS and PL also would make the same claims. And that all 3 were denied lawyers that night....I know Grinder already said this one but these little cowards left Amanda to state the truth herself and they did NOTHING to bolster her position and the truth about that.
So you're saying what? Out with it man! I dunno about Raffaele but Amanda and her family seem extremely happy with their representation. I don't think you have all the facts. For instance, they repeatedly applied for disclosure but came up against stupid judges who were prepared to swallow Comodi's line that they 'have what they need'. You can read a full history of their efforts in the transcript for 30 Sep 2009.

Hellmann and Zanetti won the appeal case for Knox...her and RS lawyers were unnecessary and mostly useless. It was Zanetti that asked the questions that the defense should have been asking all along.
Don't forget C-V. It's true that it's easy to seem brilliant when the court is with you anyway and you can be Perry Mason but still get nowhere in front of a hostile tribunal. Bongiorno has a high reputation, doesn't she? How did she get on before Massei?
 
PhantomWolf

My apologies, I overlooked your post above from last night because a lot of people were posting at once about the rock throw analysis and other stuff.

It's been awhile since I was in college, some 13 years ago so I may be hazy on some of the principles of physics. My memory is also starting to fail me as I am now 35 years old and rapidly aging, a shadow of my former self.

It is my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the gravitational force F on the rock would be equal to it's mass x acceleration of gravity 32.174 049 ft/s2 . I will denote this as F =mg. This force is also known as it's weight. It is the main force acting on our rock after the theoretical intruder has thrown it.

Let's examine this equation together because it can tell us some things that may be useful. Here is the equation again: F = m x g.

Thus, if the mass m is greater, the force (or weight) must be greater because the weight is a function of mass.

So to answer your question, unless I have analyzed this wrong, which is always possible, especially when I'm distracted by thoughts of having sex with Amanda Knox, we must conclude that indeed there is a greater force on a larger rock than a smaller rock due to gravity. We can also double check this by just observing that 10 is greater than any number below 10, and thus if the large rock weighs 10 lbs, and another rock weighs less than 10 lbs, then the 10 lb rock has a greater gravitational force on it than a rock that weigh less than 10 lbs, because weight refers to the gravitational force on the rock.

Does that make sense? I may be confusing you more than helping.

Yes, you are correct here, my mistake for posting quickly. I said force when I should have said acceleration, which is identical regardless of whether the rock is large or small. The thrower would have to impart that exact same vertical component if the two rocks are travelling horizontally at the same speed, a larger rock isn't going to fall faster than a small one.

However even though a small rock can go faster and so not need as much upwards trajectory, to get a rock 5m in 1 sec and at the same level as it was thrown, you only need to throw it at 7m/s and 45°. That is nowhere near impossible, and the throw in question was not 5m, it's about 2 perhaps 3 at the most so a throw of just 4m/s would get it there with no issues.
 
Let's try this then. Why do you suppose the FBI requires a biological substance to be identified, otherwise their DNA analysis stops right there?


Why do you suppose Stefanoni didn't even attempt to identify a biological substance, despite there (originally) being plenty of sample on the bra clasp? Didn't it strike you as strange that the sample deteriorated in storage in a mere ~18 months?

I really have no idea, I'll admit I know about as much about DNA as anyone else who just reads stuff from sites like this, sure I could Google it and become experts on it like so many here have but instead I just listen to what everyone has to say on it and make up my own mind. I do not believe for a second that Stefanoni is anything close to what the PIP say she is either....
 
I really have no idea, I'll admit I know about as much about DNA as anyone else who just reads stuff from sites like this, sure I could Google it and become experts on it like so many here have but instead I just listen to what everyone has to say on it and make up my own mind. I do not believe for a second that Stefanoni is anything close to what the PIP say she is either....
Why form any opinion at all if you don't understand the subject well enough to do so?
 
Fascinating. I think a lot of people here on JREF have taken the same route you have. It's the long route.

I took a shortcut. Once I grasped the fact that Amanda Knox had collapsed in a midnight interrogation, incriminated herself, and accused someone who turned out to have an alibi, but had not said a word about her alleged accomplice who left a bloody hand print at the crime scene... I knew the whole case had to be a hoax. If she was involved, and they got her to admit it, she'd have rolled over on him in a heartbeat. "I was there, but Guede did it!"

This is some sloppy logic.

It is not a given that Knox should have implicated Guede if she was involved. First, Knox and Raffee had set up the crime scene to point only to Rudy. She knew his traces were there and the police would probably determine that soon. But, she had the typical prisoner's dilemma and she didn't want to implicate herself by accusing Rudy because how would she know Rudy was there if she was not there. She is not sure if their staging the crime scene will not be seen for what it is, and since the crime scene was staged to point at Rudy, if she accuses Rudy, and then the police determine the crime was staged, then it will be self evident that she and Rafffe staged and why would they stage it if they were not also guilty? She must have complete separation from Rudy, and somebody else must accuse him of the crime. the idea is they never had anything to do with each other and therefore could not have committed this heinous crime together.

Nobody will ever understand exactly why she accused Patrick unless she tells us. It is not logical to conclude that she is not guilty because she accused an innocent man but not a guilty co-conspirator. Maybe she liked Rudy and didn't want him to do all the time for a crime they all committed. They did stage it to point at Rudy because they had no choice if they also did not want to go jail, but maybe that is not something Knox wanted to do. For all we know it was Raffe's idea. Perhaps she thought she was being clever by pointing to a black man she knew wasn't there so they would have a black man on their mind....maybe she thought they would find evidence of a black man being at the cottage and maybe in her mind she is thinks she is cutting down the list of suspects to Rudy on the idea it's a black man because it's not like Rudy would have been a top suspect otherwise given he had little interaction with the victim. It does seem like an odd coincidence that the man she falsely accused is black and Rudy is black when this crime took place in Italy. These could quite possibly be the only two black people she knew in Italy. Maybe she thought there was a good chance Patrick wouldn't have anybody to prove his alibi because he had called her that night and told her not to come in b/c business was slow. Maybe she was delusional enough to think that the police were so racist that they would think he was guilty on her accusation alone, and the fact she referred to Patrick at the "African boy", a grown man of nearly 40, seems to indicate that she thinks they have a racist attitude toward blacks. Perhaps she only named Patrick as a temporary diversion understanding that they would be able to prove his alibi in hopes they would release her and she would flee to America, or at least have time to come up with some other story that fits the facts that are known. You can look at her written declaration and see that she is clearly interest in what evidence the police have against her so she can say something that coincides with.

Again, we cannot fail to acknowledge the significance of the fact that Knox is interested in creative writing and she thinks she is good at the art of deception which is an element of creative writing.
 
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