Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

Folks, after discussion within the Mod Team I have decided (for better or worse) to remove this thread from Moderated status. That stated, please keep your Membership Agreement in mind when posting and ensure your post is civil/polite, on-topic, and addresses the argument (yes, the other rules apply as well, but rule 0, rule 11 and rule 12 are typically the ones that get folks in trouble the most).

If things get out of hand...back on Moderated status it goes.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

WHEW!! THANK YOU!!

Keep it together folks!

 

[anglolawyer]

Separating cells using magnets has already been done:

The need to separate unique cell types for use in therapeutics and diagnostics has been increasing dramatically over the past several years, not counting the current excitement concerning the isolation and use of human stem cells. Whether for the separation of ... mixed cell populations from one another, the need for cell sorting continues to grow. The most popular methods to date for isolating desired cells have been fluorescence-activated cell scanning/sorting and magnetic cell separation.

 

[Dan O.]

I read the link above to the C&V report above and now have a head ache.

Am I reading it correctly in that its saying Raf's DNA was found but because of the procedures used and risks of contamination, it can't be concluded that Raf's DNA was not there because of contamination?

It didn't sound like they were saying it wasn't Raf's DNA or a Y-?? compatible with in 4 males like I thought I read upthread. Is this correct?

thanks for any help you can provide in aiding me to wrap my head around the language and jargon of this subject matter

I think you are totally confused. Let's try an analogy using something similar to bingo cards to represent the DNA. Instead of going into what STR is, just accept that everybody has two numbers on their card picked from B1 through B15. The two numbers are not necessarily different. The same goes for I, N, G and O. When we process a DNA sample for a single individual, there will be 2 or sometimes only 1 number that falls under each letter. A mixed sample from 2 individuals will have up to 4 numbers under each letter. Both of those individuals will get a bingo when all of those numbers are drawn but there can be many more individuals with different combinations of those numbers that will also get bingos.

With Y-STR it's similar except that because there are never 2 Y chromosomes, each male person has only 1 number under each letter representing tags on the Y chromosome. Since females don't have a Y, it's possible to see these tags from the male contributors to a mixed sample without being overwhelmed by the female DNA.

When the bra clasp was analyzed using Y-STR, they found up to 4 numbers under each letter. We know this means that there were at least 4 contributors to the sample but it is impossible to divide the numbers to show the 4 individuals. People can be excluded if one or more of their numbers don't show up. Since all of Raffaele's numbers did show up, he could not be excluded as a possible contributor. What the defense tried to point out in court was that because the Y DNA has a high regional correlation, half the males in the courtroom could not have been ruled out as contributors so it has little if any meaning.

 

[DrTesla]

I think you are totally confused. Let's try an analogy using something similar to bingo cards to represent the DNA. Instead of going into what STR is, just accept that everybody has two numbers on their card picked from B1 through B15. The two numbers are not necessarily different. The same goes for I, N, G and O. When we process a DNA sample for a single individual, there will be 2 or sometimes only 1 number that falls under each letter. A mixed sample from 2 individuals will have up to 4 numbers under each letter. Both of those individuals will get a bingo when all of those numbers are drawn but there can be many more individuals with different combinations of those numbers that will also get bingos.

With Y-STR it's similar except that because there are never 2 Y chromosomes, each male person has only 1 number under each letter representing tags on the Y chromosome. Since females don't have a Y, it's possible to see these tags from the male contributors to a mixed sample without being overwhelmed by the female DNA.

When the bra clasp was analyzed using Y-STR, they found up to 4 numbers under each letter. We know this means that there were at least 4 contributors to the sample but it is impossible to divide the numbers to show the 4 individuals. People can be excluded if one or more of their numbers don't show up. Since all of Raffaele's numbers did show up, he could not be excluded as a possible contributor. What the defense tried to point out in court was that because the Y DNA has a high regional correlation, half the males in the courtroom could not have been ruled out as contributors so it has little if any meaning.

my understanding of this Y DNA is that it would still have to be Raf's dad or uncle, which would be impossible in this case, if it wasn't Raf, so it was still poiting to Raff. Also, the other DNA type tested pointed at RAF, 16 loci matches which is considered a strong DNA match, even if the prosecution conceded 4 of the loci the defense complained about it, it would still point to Raff.

 

[Malkmus]

There is not enough evidence to prove anything in this case

I believe it's been proven that Rudy is responsible for Meredith's death. For someone who finds it "extremely improbable" that Rudy would lock the door with his foot turned a certain way, or that he locked it after coming back, it's interesting to me that you do find it likely that two people would take years of prison for a murder they didn't commit, but instead just "covered up" for someone else. The most likely response once they spent their first year in jail would be to completely throw Rudy under the bus. That's even assuming two people would even cover up someone else's murder to begin with. Your theory of the crime is what's "extremely improbable".

 

[DrTesla]

I believe it's been proven that Rudy is responsible for Meredith's death. For someone who finds it "extremely improbable" that Rudy would lock the door with his foot turned a certain way, or that he locked it after coming back, it's interesting to me that you do find it likely that two people would take years of prison for a murder they didn't commit, but instead just "covered up" for someone else. The most likely response once they spent their first year in jail would be to completely throw Rudy under the bus. That's even assuming two people would even cover up someone else's murder to begin with. Your theory of the crime is what's "extremely improbable".

the problem with them blaming rudy is that rudy could fire back at them, and he could give credible testimony that proves that all 3 of them were involved. the body was moved sometime later after the murder, and arranged to look like a rape, and since we know Rudy was the sexual assaulter, why would he be motivated to do this and just encourage police to focus on him? the staged rape seems to make it even more likely rudy killed her after a rape, and obviously this would benefit any female who was also accused, like Knox, b/c women can't rape other women. I think that was the idea behind Knox and Raff staging the rape. there's also no evidence that rudy stuck around after the murder, his bloody prints head straight to the door and there's no way he came back to the house later, cuz he would have at least flushed the toilet with his feces and then wiped away some of his bloody prints, one would think. so somebody else had to be there to stage the rape and again, rudy would not be motivated to undercore the fact the victim was raped if he in fact had raped her or tried to rape her and his dna is on her body.

 

[DrTesla]

I think a lot of people believe that Knox accusing her black boss of the crime was indirectly blaming Rudy, but blaming Rudy would have seemed to implicate her as well b/c how would she know that he was at the cottage and killed meridith if she was also not there. she wanted to get the police thinking about a black killer, and maybe she hoped that somebody had seen a black guy around that day, or would find evidence of a black man at the apartment, so either blame would be put on her boss, who obviously she didn't care if he took the fall for this, or they would release him and nail rudy.

 

[DrTesla]

does anybody know about this sperm stain that supposedly the defense complained about not being tested? I can't see why the prosecution would be scared of a sperm stain being tested b/c most like it is going to be Rudy's, which wouldn't prove Raff innocent, and there is a possibility it could be Raff's, which would only help there case. there is no risk and high reward for the prosecution to allow this sperm stain to be tested yet it appears Fischer and others claim the sperm stain testing was opposed by the prosecution which doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Rolfe]

So? Are you saying it's impossible? Here's an image. They look pretty big to me.

Also, here is a slide from C-V report showing there cytological examination of their own samples taken from the knife. Is there really no way known to man (or woman) to separate cells of different types?

Separating cells using magnets has already been done:

I'm trying to think of a really, really simple way of putting this. Essentially, if you had a sample that was both large enough and of suitable quality to do that, you wouldn't need to.

Rolfe.

 

[yimyammer]

does anybody know about this sperm stain that supposedly the defense complained about not being tested? I can't see why the prosecution would be scared of a sperm stain being tested b/c most like it is going to be Rudy's, which wouldn't prove Raff innocent, and there is a possibility it could be Raff's, which would only help there case. there is no risk and high reward for the prosecution to allow this sperm stain to be tested yet it appears Fischer and others claim the sperm stain testing was opposed by the prosecution which doesn't make any sense to me.

that didn't make sense to me either, looking forward to hearing an answer on this

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

my understanding of this Y DNA is that it would still have to be Raf's dad or uncle, which would be impossible in this case, if it wasn't Raf, so it was still poiting to Raff.

If you got that understanding from TJMK or a PMF, take this as an object lesson in why you shouldn't go to those places for understanding of DNA issues, or for that matter any other scientific issue. They have a very. very limited grasp at best on science over there. I think it's self-selection once again: anyone who is really good at science wouldn't be part of that community in the first place, so they have nobody to get the science right for them.

Also, the other DNA type tested pointed at RAF, 16 loci matches which is considered a strong DNA match, even if the prosecution conceded 4 of the loci the defense complained about it, it would still point to Raff.

We seem to be going around in circles. The DNA of at least four people was found on that bra clasp. How do you think it got there? It could have been a six-way team attack on Meredith's bra, but it could also have been contamination of the sample by some means. The second seems much more likely.

If the sample was definitely contaminated by some means, it's rather strange to assume that Raffaele's DNA got there at the time of the murder because he was fiddling with her bra hooks (the actual hooks, not the fabric where Rudy's DNA was found), without considering the possibility that it got there later due to the contamination event.

Do be careful now: This is where many pro-guilt posters slip up. They jump to say "DNA doesn't fly! There was none of Raffaele's DNA in the house, so it must be from him killing Meredith!". The mistake they are making is that we know contamination happened, and the pro-guilt poster just proved it didn't happen in the house, which means the contamination very likely happened after the sample was already in police hands.

Once you allow yourself to think the heretical thought that Raffaele's DNA must have got on to the bra hook after it left the house and was in police hands, your brain is impure and you won't be allowed back to TMJK and PMF. At that stage you're only one easy inference away from thinking it likely Raffaele was deliberately framed, and where does that end?

the problem with them blaming rudy is that rudy could fire back at them, and he could give credible testimony that proves that all 3 of them were involved. the body was moved sometime later after the murder, and arranged to look like a rape, and since we know Rudy was the sexual assaulter, why would he be motivated to do this and just encourage police to focus on him?

Meredith was aspirating blood droplets from her neck wound after her bra was removed, therefore we know for certain that her bra was removed after the fatal wound was inflicted but before she stopped breathing.

This is a problem for pro-guilt posters who want to rehabilitate Rudy Guede to be a poor, misunderstood victim of bad company. Raping a dying woman is hard to pass off as an understandable error of judgment.

there's also no evidence that rudy stuck around after the murder, his bloody prints head straight to the door and there's no way he came back to the house later, cuz he would have at least flushed the toilet with his feces and then wiped away some of his bloody prints, one would think. so somebody else had to be there to stage the rape and again, rudy would not be motivated to undercore the fact the victim was raped if he in fact had raped her or tried to rape her and his dna is on her body.

It's Rudy's footprint in the bathroom, so he stuck around after the murder to wash himself off. He'd left his DNA inside Meredith's person and a possible semen stain under her hips on a pillow, so the idea that he could easily clean up the crime scene so it wouldn't be held as a rape, or for that matter the idea that someone else could stage it as a rape, is ludicrous. "Hey Amanda, I need to stage a rape scene here. Pass me some of Rudy's DNA, I'll insert it in her vagina. Brilliant!".

does anybody know about this sperm stain that supposedly the defense complained about not being tested? I can't see why the prosecution would be scared of a sperm stain being tested b/c most like it is going to be Rudy's, which wouldn't prove Raff innocent, and there is a possibility it could be Raff's, which would only help there case. there is no risk and high reward for the prosecution to allow this sperm stain to be tested yet it appears Fischer and others claim the sperm stain testing was opposed by the prosecution which doesn't make any sense to me.

Try to make up a coherent story where Rudy sexually violates the dying Meredith until he ejaculates, in which Amanda and Raffaele just stand around watching and then neither of them ever gives evidence against him. It's pretty damned difficult.

 

[DrTesla]

My understanding of the bra clasp DNA evidence comes from the guy talking about it here http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/index.php?title=The_Bra_Clasp

here are the money quotes:
"Vecchiotti conceded in court that Sollecito's y-chromosome was on the clasp despite trying to avoid making that claim in the report. Even after Vecchiotti stated it was Sollecito's y-chromosome Judge Hellmann nevertheless concluded that there is no way to determine if DNA on the bra clasp was a match to Raffaele. Conti and Vecchiotti's criticisms of the autosomal DNA are, to put it plainly, wrong but even if we ignore the austosmal DNA completely the y-chromosome match that Vecchiotti concedes is present limits the possible matches to Raffaele Sollecito, Sollecito's father, and maybe an uncle if he has any.

With respect to the autosomal DNA Conti and Vecchiotti seem to be contesting four loci of fifteen. Dr. Taglibracci a DNA defence expert who testified during the original trial contested the same four loci plus an additional one. With the autosomal DNA being a 16 loci match the probability that the DNA belongs to someone other than Raffaele is one in a trillion or two. If instead of debating the issue with the defence experts we just grant them all the contested locus-points the probability that it is someone other than Sollecito is still one in over ten billion. This still makes it Raffaele's DNA profile without even considering that the y-chromosome test only really limited the possible contributors to Raffaele and his close male relatives. "


Nobody's talked about Rudy being a victim. Nobody denies his guilt. Some believe he probably iniated the sexual encounter with Meridith on his own with no encouragement, but at that time Knox, who didn't like Meridith, and Raff, who would get turned on by something like this, came in the room and tried to intimidate Meridith into having sex with Rudy as she was protesting it. I think Massei more or less supported this theory. I tend to believe that Knox invited Rudy over with this being the plan which would would explalin why Knox and Raff shut off their cell phones and Knox took the kitchen knife over the cottage....they had bad intent from the start.

 

[Bill Williams]

the problem with them blaming rudy is that rudy could fire back at them, and he could give credible testimony that proves that all 3 of them were involved. the body was moved sometime later after the murder, and arranged to look like a rape, and since we know Rudy was the sexual assaulter, why would he be motivated to do this and just encourage police to focus on him? the staged rape seems to make it even more likely rudy killed her after a rape, and obviously this would benefit any female who was also accused, like Knox, b/c women can't rape other women. I think that was the idea behind Knox and Raff staging the rape. there's also no evidence that rudy stuck around after the murder, his bloody prints head straight to the door and there's no way he came back to the house later, cuz he would have at least flushed the toilet with his feces and then wiped away some of his bloody prints, one would think. so somebody else had to be there to stage the rape and again, rudy would not be motivated to undercore the fact the victim was raped if he in fact had raped her or tried to rape her and his dna is on her body.

What credible testimony could Rudy provide? The very first thing he said about the crime in his Skype call from Germany was that Knox was not there. The testimony that Guede eventually did provide got his sentence reduced. Then he clammed up.

And someone else staged the rape? Were they carrying Rudy's DNA in a vile just for this purpose?

 

[DrTesla]

What credible testimony could Rudy provide? The very first thing he said about the crime in his Skype call from Germany was that Knox was not there. The testimony that Guede eventually did provide got his sentence reduced. Then he clammed up.

And someone else staged the rape? Were they carrying Rudy's DNA in a vile just for this purpose?

you are missing the point on purpose, probably on purpose. nobody denies Rudy's role as the sexual aggressor but you guys keep acting like the choice is either rudy or the other two, which is a classic false choice. all 3 were involved.
first, I don't think the autopsy ever established that there was vaginal rape for sure, only a possibility of it. the point of the staging was to make the crime scene look like it was just about a rape, by the person who broke in, which was also staged, and then he murdered her. the point of the rape staging was to reinforce the idea there was only one guy involved, usually there aren't other people there cheering on a rape with knives.

do you deny that her body was moved from the closet to center of the room? also appeared her bra was removed after the fact b/c there was blood on bra but not on her breasts, and it seems like there would be blood on her breasts if she was uncovered during the rape and then slashed with the knife.

I do think the fact that Knox knew the body was in the closet at one point despite the police never telling her this is the most damning evidence against her outside of Raf's DNA on the bra clasp and her mixed dna with the victim's, and her lamp in the bedroom on the floor. it's amazing that this is rarely talked about.

 

[DrTesla]

What credible testimony could Rudy provide? The very first thing he said about the crime in his Skype call from Germany was that Knox was not there. The testimony that Guede eventually did provide got his sentence reduced. Then he clammed up.

And someone else staged the rape? Were they carrying Rudy's DNA in a vile just for this purpose?

you don't seem to understand the prisoner's dilemma at all. accusing other co-conspirators can implicate you as well, unless you can make up a story that explains how you know they were there but you were not there at the scene of the crime.

he didn't clam up that much b/c he later said he saw both of them there, and they did it.

I think it's funny you dismiss rudy as not even being possible that he would tell the truth but you seem to give knox all kinds of benefit of the doubt even after she lied about her innocent boss being the killer after 1 to 2 hours of questioning. I know, police brutality, etc.

 

[Dan O.]

that didn't make sense to me either, looking forward to hearing an answer on this

There will be no explanation forthcoming. Either they didn't test it which makes them look stupid (or more stupid). Or, they did test it and covered it up which makes them look corrupt (more corrupt).

When there is a stupid and corrupt prosecution these things happen.

 

[DrTesla]

There will be no explanation forthcoming. Either they didn't test it which makes them look stupid (or more stupid). Or, they did test it and covered it up which makes them look corrupt (more corrupt).

When there is a stupid and corrupt prosecution these things happen.

it would be interesting to learn if you would make your wild accusations against the prosecuter and the police involved in this case in a courtroom, with potential llegal punishment for your falsities once proven to be false.

 

[Dan O.]

Did they test the stain or did they not test it? Can you find any other case in the world where a woman was sexually assaulted and murdered and there was a possible semen stain between her legs that was not tested? Why would you defend there action either way?

ETA: In the conviction of Bennie Starks there was semen recovered from a rape victim which was tested for blood type and found to be a match. The prosecutor strenuously objected to subsequent DNA testing. When a court finally ordered testing, not only did the DNA TEST exonerate Bernie, it revealed that the blood type didn't even match. There's another evil and corrupt prosecutor but I wouldn't want to subject him to the intellectual torture of putting him in the same cell with Mignini and company.

 

[Bill Williams]

you are missing the point on purpose, probably on purpose. nobody denies Rudy's role as the sexual aggressor but you guys keep acting like the choice is either rudy or the other two, which is a classic false choice. all 3 were involved.
first, I don't think the autopsy ever established that there was vaginal rape for sure, only a possibility of it. the point of the staging was to make the crime scene look like it was just about a rape, by the person who broke in, which was also staged, and then he murdered her. the point of the rape staging was to reinforce the idea there was only one guy involved, usually there aren't other people there cheering on a rape with knives.

do you deny that her body was moved from the closet to center of the room? also appeared her bra was removed after the fact b/c there was blood on bra but not on her breasts, and it seems like there would be blood on her breasts if she was uncovered during the rape and then slashed with the knife.

I do think the fact that Knox knew the body was in the closet at one point despite the police never telling her this is the most damning evidence against her outside of Raf's DNA on the bra clasp and her mixed dna with the victim's, and her lamp in the bedroom on the floor. it's amazing that this is rarely talked about.

You make the assumption that all three were involved to prove that all three were involved. You are talking about things no one has talked about, not even the prosecution, nor any of the judges who have found things as factual.

 

[DrTesla]

Did they test the stain or did they not test it? Can you find any other case in the world where a woman was sexually assaulted and murdered and there was a possible semen stain between her legs that was not tested? Why would you defend there action either way?

ETA: In the conviction of Bennie Starks there was semen recovered from a rape victim which was tested for blood type and found to be a match. The prosecutor strenuously objected to subsequent DNA testing. When a court finally ordered testing, not only did the DNA TEST exonerate Bernie, it revealed that the blood type didn't even match. There's another evil and corrupt prosecutor but I wouldn't want to subject him to the intellectual torture of putting him in the same cell with Mignini and company.

why would the prosecution being afraid of testing the semen stain if that is what it is? If it's Rudy's, that only underscores Rudy's guilt but does not exorate the other two. if it's Raff's, he's guilty as charged. if it somebody else, like the victim's boyfriend's, it's irrelevant. so this idea the prosecution was fighting this semen stain from being tested is absurd, there was no risk to their case for it to be tested and it possibly could have helped their case.

talking about some other case and imply b/c something happened in one case it also happened in this case is the worse sort of straw man.