Proof of Life After Death!!

[tsig]

Yeah, I know. Sorry. But, hey, Robin HAS been given the opportunity to listen and comprehend, and she continues to imply everyone is too dense to comprehend the magicalness of JE. It's inaccurate, rude, and tiresome, and I reacted to that. I do that.

And I was kidding. These "hits" by JE are laughable.

I wouldn't even score them as loud fouls.

 

[GeeMack]

Yes, that's what I meant-unprocessed milk. Granted, like Garrette said, there are probably few kids growing up around milk cows who don't, at some point, take the dare of drinking milk squirted directly from the udder, but I assumed that JE's "hit" was about unprocessed milk, too.

It seems the "true mediums" are as ambiguous with their language as those fellows who wrote the Bible.

 

[Stellafane]

I'll bet JE couldn't have predicted it... even with his super powerz.

I thought things might be heading in this direction when I detected what I found to be a slightly disquieting tone to some of Robin1's more recent posts, particularly her "please stop" requests. It's one thing to say "I don't agree with what you're saying," quite another to state "I don't even want you to say it," as though its mere utterance causes offense. Especially in this case, where what was being claimed (that others can produce results as impressive as JE's without using paranormal powers) is in my view pretty much incontrovertable.

 

[dlorde]

Yeah, I know. Sorry. But, hey, Robin HAS been given the opportunity to listen and comprehend, and she continues to imply everyone is too dense to comprehend the magicalness of JE. It's inaccurate, rude, and tiresome, and I reacted to that. I do that.

And I was kidding. These "hits" by JE are laughable.

Assuming we can take Robin's posts at face value (for a skeptic forum this is a hypothetical), I find myself wondering why her conviction appears to become stronger and more strident the more weaknesses are pointed out in what this conviction is based on. The underlying evidence remains unchanged, and the weight of argument against her interpretation has increased significantly since the start of the thread.

I suggest it's a question of emotional commitment, a variation of the 'Sunk Cost' fallacy with an admix of human pride. If she were to admit the possibility that JE is a fraud and was cold or warm reading her, it would mean not only that there were no vague messages from a deceased loved one, or that she was royally duped, but also that she couldn't see it despite months of painstaking explanation from people who are very familiar with frauds like this.

She has simply too much emotional investment to admit she could be wrong at this point, and the longer it continues, the more she will have to lose, the less she will be prepared to contemplate the probability she's been fooled by a mediocre stage act, and the more she will attempt to reinforce her belief.

I suspect that if JE were to be convincingly shown to be a fraud tomorrow (e.g. he or an aide is recorded admitting it, or he's shown to be taking instruction via radio, etc), Robin will continue to believe that the 'readings' she personally experienced and that her friends got from JE were somehow the 'real thing' - perhaps he tragically lost his powers afterwards, or it was a little splash of magic just for them, or he was caught taking a rest from psychic stress and didn't want to let people down.

Many people have this kind of emotional commitment to beliefs that seem absurd to the disinterested observer; humans seem wired to work this way, which gives frauds and charlatans an easy living. Skeptics make it their business to become familiar with the patterns of these scams, which makes it hard for them to see why others fall for them so frequently, but most people are unaware of the fallibility of their perception and recall and how easily they are manipulated.

In summary - I don't think there's any chance in the short term that Robin will be able to recognise or admit to being duped, but in the very long term our contrary opinion may have sown a seed of doubt.

 

[Hellbound]

Regarding the hits, it's the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy writ large, and institutionalized as "psychics"

The Texas Shaprshooter fallacy is throwing out several random things, then attaching signifigance to them later and pretending that's what you meant. The name is for the analogy of someone shooting at a barn, then walking up and drawing a bullseye around the holes after the fact, then stating how great a shot he is.

In this case, though, the sitters draw their own bullseyes.

JE throws out a lot of stuff in his readings, most of it vague. It's left ot he sitters to take that vagueness and draw the bullseye around it, and make it a hit.

To take the Mayflower example:
Several town names
Moving company
Historical importance; anything concerning Pilgrims, Plymouth Rock, Thanksgiving could be fitted as a hit. Numerous museums, schools, and similar coul dbe counted here.
Not uncommon last name.
Not uncommon street name
The Mayflower Renaissance hotel in Washington, D.C. (also a hotel in Seattle)
Mayflower Bancorp
Mayflower Tours
Mayflower Brewing
Mayflower Seafood (several companies use this name)
Mayflower Research and Consulting LLC
Mayflower Japanese Restaurant (there are severla Mayflower restaurants of various types)
Mayflower Greenhouse
Mayflower Bank

That's only the first three pages of google hits. There are at least ten pages.

And consdiering that JE specified the moving van (he did not state he got the name Mayflower, he specified a Mayflower moving van), I don't see how Mayflower Avenue can be consdiered an accurate hit in any case.

But people keep drawing the bullseyes. Because even if you can't be a great shot yourself, peopel like to be able to pretend they are. Or, more apt in this case, how many stories (excitedly and happily told) start off with "I knew this guy once that could..."

(Or, for military stories, "So, no [crap], there I was...")

 

[pakeha]

Yeah, I know. Sorry. But, hey, Robin HAS been given the opportunity to listen and comprehend, and she continues to imply everyone is too dense to comprehend the magicalness of JE. It's inaccurate, rude, and tiresome, and I reacted to that. I do that.

And I was kidding. These "hits" by JE are laughable.

Laughable, indeed.
The image of our fellow forum poster helplessly turning around and around in their kitchen, wondering what the big humming box was for originally provoked this reply from me:


But misercordia prompted a change to:
Ouch.

 

[dlorde]

...And consdiering that JE specified the moving van (he did not state he got the name Mayflower, he specified a Mayflower moving van), I don't see how Mayflower Avenue can be consdiered an accurate hit in any case.

Yeah, I missed what happened to the moving-van; it was a pretty specific description given the vagueness of the rest of it - not just any van, but a moving-van, and not just any moving-van, but a Mayflower moving-van. But if you or someone you know didn't recently move house (the most probable Barnum target), then just make a hit with whatever comes to mind...

 

[greybeard]

Thanks for this, Darat! There's some good reading in there.

I found this one particularly interesting: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17688



So John Edward has done shows with Sylvia Browne, according to Sylvia, they are "close friends", and he even dedicated his first book to her.

Now, why, do you suppose, would The Great And Powerful Oz John Edward be pals with Sylvia Browne? What could they possibly have in common?

I was struck by the same thing when I read those links. It's good that Robin can see the difference between real "psychics" like JE and evil "psychics" like SB because there sure doesn't seem to be much difference to the casual observer.

 

[GeeMack]

I was struck by the same thing when I read those links. It's good that Robin can see the difference between real "psychics" like JE and evil "psychics" like SB because there sure doesn't seem to be much difference to the casual observer.

Yep. Since there is no objective difference between the abilities of a moderately competent stage magician and those of a "true medium", claiming to be able to distinguish between them is in itself an implied claim to possessing magical powers.

Kidney... kidney... kidney... no kidney... kidney... no kidney...

 

[desertgal]

I suggest it's a question of emotional commitment, a variation of the 'Sunk Cost' fallacy with an admix of human pride. If she were to admit the possibility that JE is a fraud and was cold or warm reading her, it would mean not only that there were no vague messages from a deceased loved one, or that she was royally duped, but also that she couldn't see it despite months of painstaking explanation from people who are very familiar with frauds like this. <snipped for brevity>

I agree with all you say.

The part that I find most frustrating is that I believe, when it comes to psychics, every critical thinker here makes it a point to lay the blame where it belongs: on the one perpetrating the fraud, not the victims. I think Robin would have received a lot of support if she had backed down a little. I've seen it happen here, not just with people who believe in psychics, but also people who see the light about a conspiracy theory, or about their own alleged paranormal ability.

It's just sad. She ended up in the one place that would've gladly encouraged her "enlightenment".

 

[kerikiwi]

So, the fact that John Edward REPEATEDLY says the right unknowable, specific, personal, and unique things directly to the right people means absolutely nothing?

It has been explained to you, and clearly demonstrated, repeatedly that he does not.
But don't let that stop you.

 

[Raab]

BTW, I saw a new member make his/her first post here:
to Raab. Loved your post.

Thank you Femke, and to all the subsequent greeters.

The JREF Forum has quickly become some of my favorite reading material but also the demise of my sleeping schedule.

 

[ynot]

So Robin1, Is this thread helping in your quest to “Win a Group Reading with Psychic Medium John Edward”? - http://www.andersoncooper.com/member/robin-stettnisch/

Please give this question at least a couple of seconds consideration before you close your mind off . . .

Do you realise that EVERY claim you make for JE being a genuine psychic is also made with just as much conviction and sincerity by the doting fans of SB (who you say is a non-human fraud) and other self-proclaimed psychics? Why are you any more right or less wrong than they are?

 

[Femke]

Thank you Femke, and to all the subsequent greeters.

The JREF Forum has quickly become some of my favorite reading material but also the demise of my sleeping schedule.

Yeah, lurking is very addictive.
Still, jumping in when you have something to say is better. Enjoy.

 

[deaman]

Dear Robin1 -

You say SB is a fraud? Yet both SB and JE do shows together? Why would JE appear on the same bill as a known fraud?

Or, if JE believes SB to be genuine psychic, then why don't you take his word for it?

Does JE just use SB, so he can get a bigger audience and make more money?

If JE believes SB is also a genuine psychic, and you don't, has JE been fooled? (But, how could that be if he is genuine psychic?)

 

[John Jones]

And it's not just that. Drinking "directly from the cow" has at least two interpretations and not one. It can be drinking directly squirted from the udder (nearly every child on a farm has taken that dare) or it can be drinking from a glass of milk from the pail directly from that morning's milking.

That's me, and I'm a city boy who only spent a few weeks in the summer on my grandmother's farm. We got it warm from the pail every morning, and a squirt in the mouth if we were around when the milking took place.

 

[Agatha]

That's me, and I'm a city boy who only spent a few weeks in the summer on my grandmother's farm. We got it warm from the pail every morning, and a squirt in the mouth if we were around when the milking took place.

I lived in central London for the first 13 years of my life, but during those years I visited farms and have drunk milk both direct from a milking pail and even squirted from the udder. It's really not an uncommon thing, as JE is well aware.

I wish there was a way to reach Robin, to help her see that what she sees as amazing hits are nothing more than a good showman and some facility with cold (and very possibly hot) reading.

 

[abaddon]

Thank you Femke, and to all the subsequent greeters.

The JREF Forum has quickly become some of my favorite reading material but also the demise of my sleeping schedule.

You join club now, or club join your head! Welcome to insomnia.

 

[abaddon]

To be serious, though. Robin1 has taken a short holiday. It is unfair to "pile on" when she cannot respond to any posts. I have no idea what she did, and I don't care. I know she is plain flat out wrong, yet still I don't care.

Allow her the courtesy of waiting until she has the right of response before jumping all over her.

Sure, she might be a troll.
Sure, she might be a JE shill.
Sure, she might be deluded.

But, gee, wait until she can actually respond after her suspension.

 

[ynot]

To be serious, though. Robin1 has taken a short holiday. It is unfair to "pile on" when she cannot respond to any posts. I have no idea what she did, and I don't care. I know she is plain flat out wrong, yet still I don't care.

Allow her the courtesy of waiting until she has the right of response before jumping all over her.

Sure, she might be a troll.
Sure, she might be a JE shill.
Sure, she might be deluded.

But, gee, wait until she can actually respond after her suspension.

What if she never returns?