Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Sherlock Holmes]

Curatolo at first testified that the kids were there from 9:30 until just before midnight but after Mignini finished the end time was a little earlier and he wasn't sure they were there the whole time. Several reporters wrote the story at the time.


The presence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in Piazza Grimana between the hours of 9:30 pm and 11:30 pm of 1st November was, in fact, reported only by witness Curatolo, whose credibility this court very much doubts for the following reasons.

First, the deterioration of his intellectual faculties, revealed by the responses given before this Court during his testimony (hearing of 3.26.2011) and resulting from his type of lifestyle and from his habits.

[Mr. Curatolo] is a tramp who at the time lived on the streets whereas today he is detained serving a sentence [detenuto in espiazione di pena] for drug-trafficking [spaccio di sostanza stupefacente] and who, when asked why he had chosen this type of life (at times, in fact, such choices are motivated by idealistic reasons), he responded: “…Because … really I’m an anarchist however I have read the bible and I became a Christian anarchist… and so this is what I chose…

From Nick Pisa in Perugia 2:02PM GMT 28 Mar 2009
Antonio Curatolo, 52, said that a couple he had seen "chatting animatedly" on a basketball court were her alleged murderers, American student Knox and Italian Sollecito.
He told the court that he saw them "around five times" between 9.30pm and midnight on the night Miss Kercher died.

You know, I truly believe Toto did see them there as he has said, but one thing that does bother me, there must have been others there as well, who could say they saw them or saw no one, why didn't anyone else come forward. Once the murder was known, anyone who had been near there would know they were near the place where the English student was murdered, you would think someone would have come forward, but no one did.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

fingerprint map

no fingerprints were found at the cottage, not Knox or any of the roomates even (which indicates a cleanup I would think). I think they found his bloody handprint on a pillowcase.

how do you explain no rudy DNA or trace in fiol's bedroom or on the exterior of the house? I would think there would a lot of opportunity for DNA to be rubbed off in a climb into a window w/ broke glass no less.

With respect to evidence in the area near the window, there are Reps. 198 and 199, which have been discussed in these threads for years. One of them tested positive for blood by TMB. I suggest you look them up. With respect to fingerprints, you are simply wrong; there are a number of fingerprints. Charlie_Wilkes has posted a fingerprint map of the cottage on several occasions. Here is a link. It is one of the many files at the Injustice in Perugia site.

 

[DrTesla]

With respect to evidence in the area near the window, there are Reps. 198 and 199, which have been discussed in these threads for years. One of them tested positive for blood by TMB. I suggest you look them up. With respect to fingerprints, you are simply wrong; there are a number of fingerprints. Charlie_Wilkes has posted a fingerprint map of the cottage on several occasions. Here is a link. It is one of the many files at the Injustice in Perugia site.

it's funny how you guys always do these appeal to authority arguments, citing lawyers, pyschologists, fbi agents, etc, but then you always cite a mall clerk's website as the go to source on this case. he's apparently a legal expert, a dna expert, a psychology expert, etc etc etc, but then you look as his site and he claims that Mignini said the Knox case was about a satanic rite and you know he's a liar.

I know Barbie nadaue has reported there was not any fingerprints found in the cottage that could be identified, outside of Knox's on a glass in the kitchen.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

ok, so how come there was absolutel no evidence of Rudy in the roommate;s room where you claimed he broke in at? , no fingerprinters on the window or elsewhere, none of his DNA found in the room, no debris or dirty footprints on the floor from the garden below?

he must have had the special select-o-matic DNA and fingerprint eraser, right?


I'm just using your stupid logic against you.

if he did wipe down that room you think he would have noticed the mixed blood sample of Knox/victim's and just wiped that away too, for all he knows he may have cut himself on the broken glass and it could have been his.

You could go on and on. Raff spent several hours with Amanda there on Nov 1st, the last they said they saw Meredith, yet the only DNA he left was on a glass of water he had on the 2nd and on Meredith's bra clasp.
Personally, I think the clean up was simply wiping down door handles, like Meredith's outside handle and certain things they know they touched while in there.

 

[DrTesla]

You could go on and on. Raff spent several hours with Amanda there on Nov 1st, the last they said they saw Meredith, yet the only DNA he left was on a glass of water he had on the 2nd and on Meredith's bra clasp.
Personally, I think the clean up was simply wiping down door handles, like Meredith's outside handle and certain things they know they touched while in there.

they also seem to forget Knox was all of 20 years old and it's not like she had experience doing cleanups of evidence before. it may be dumb to think they could remove their traces and only leave Rudy's but that doesn't mean they didn't try it b/c they only had two choices as I see it, do that or get rid of the body and remove all the traces. I think they probably were interrupted in their cleanup effort by the unexpected postal police because you'd think they would have done something with the bathroom mat with the bloody footprint at least. I think they were mainly looking for bloody footprints and handprints in their search of the bedroom, and any other evidence off their person, like an ear piercing as I suggested earlier.

one thing that I always forget about is the postal police said the washing machine was running when they arrived, and Fiol testified to that or the fact the water was warm in the washing machine. i'd think that is pretty solid evidence of a cleanup effort and it appears it was meridith's clothes in the washer and it's like not she put in a load the night before , was murdered, and it was still running the next day.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

lol, I think you are making it sound more difficult, and again no fingerprints were found at all in the apartment except on a glass in the kitchen. I think fingerprints are usually found on glass or metallic surfaces or plastic surfaces and I doubt those kind of surfaces were present in the victim's room.

"No fingerprints were found at all in the apartment except on a glass in the kitchen"?

Where did you hear that? It's wrong.

The police found loads of fingerprints in the murder room, and some in Filomena's room, Amanda's room, Laura's room, and more in the kitchen. You seem to be repeating pro-guilt talking points which have not been past even rudimentary fact-checking.

If you're not just trolling, stop and think about this. What you are repeating parrot-fashion is folklore, not knowledge. It's not fact-checked, it's not protected against errors or misremembering, it's essentially a body of rumour built up in a pro-guilt echo chamber.

One of the two sides here has to be wrong. But is it really more likely that it's the side who don't keep their facts and their science rigorously straight who got lucky and happened to be right?

again, you refuse to admit they either had to try remove their traces, or they had to remove the body and clean them all up. since the body wasn't removed, it looks like the went with remove their traces. the luminol exposed their bloody footprints that had been wiped up, so you can deny cleanup and try to make it absurd sounding but a clean up effort took place. I also like to point out there were no bloody footprints leading up the bloody footprint on the bathroom mat, which isn't logical unless there was a cleanup. that bloody print is clearly Raff's by the way and would be enough to convict both of them in American courts.

So if they are guilty, they did a clean-up? Well, I guess that follows. It must have been a special, magical clean-up using a special, magical DNA-detector which let them erase without trace (or bleach) every speck of their own DNA and their own fingerprints, while leaving Rudy Guede's evidence all over the place, and leaving absolutely no trace that a clean-up happened. But if they are guilty, that must have been what happened.

The thing is, this consideration should make you think it is substantially less likely that they are guilty. It's mathematically necessary, in fact. If X can only be true if Y is true, and Y is very unlikely, then you know two things:

1. If X is true, then Y is definitely true too.
2. X is now very unlikely to be true, because Y is very unlikely to be true.

If the prosecution story relies on magical clean-ups, invisible staging, nonexistent motives, DNA that vanishes upon review, completely ignoring scientific papers and expert opinion about digestion, coerced statements that are dream-like nonsense and witness statements from serial testifiers coming forward weeks or months after the crime, that makes it a very weak story.

Especially if there is a competing story which requires no such magical thinking to make it work, just boring old science and logic.

 

[Rolfe]

there is about as much evidence that Rudy came through that window as there is for global warming, given global temperatures have been dropping the past 14 years or so. You are basically Al Gore ranting about global warming with snow on the ground the springtime if you believe Rudy came through that high window. Nothing supports that theory.

Ah, so you agree that the evidence for Rudy having climbed in the window is overwhelming. We progress.

Rolfe.

 

[DrTesla]

"No fingerprints were found at all in the apartment except on a glass in the kitchen"?

Where did you hear that? It's wrong.

The police found loads of fingerprints in the murder room, and some in Filomena's room, Amanda's room, Laura's room, and more in the kitchen. You seem to be repeating pro-guilt talking points which have not been past even rudimentary fact-checking.

If you're not just trolling, stop and think about this. What you are repeating parrot-fashion is folklore, not knowledge. It's not fact-checked, it's not protected against errors or misremembering, it's essentially a body of rumour built up in a pro-guilt echo chamber.

One of the two sides here has to be wrong. But is it really more likely that it's the side who don't keep their facts and their science rigorously straight who got lucky and happened to be right?



So if they are guilty, they did a clean-up? Well, I guess that follows. It must have been a special, magical clean-up using a special, magical DNA-detector which let them erase without trace (or bleach) every speck of their own DNA and their own fingerprints, while leaving Rudy Guede's evidence all over the place, and leaving absolutely no trace that a clean-up happened. But if they are guilty, that must have been what happened.

The thing is, this consideration should make you think it is substantially less likely that they are guilty. It's mathematically necessary, in fact. If X can only be true if Y is true, and Y is very unlikely, then you know two things:

1. If X is true, then Y is definitely true too.
2. X is now very unlikely to be true, because Y is very unlikely to be true.

If the prosecution story relies on magical clean-ups, invisible staging, nonexistent motives, DNA that vanishes upon review, completely ignoring scientific papers and expert opinion about digestion, coerced statements that are dream-like nonsense and witness statements from serial testifiers coming forward weeks or months after the crime, that makes it a very weak story.

Especially if there is a competing story which requires no such magical thinking to make it work, just boring old science and logic.

ok, I don't think the lack of fingerprints is necessary to make the case Knox is guilty, i'm just repeating what I saw Barbie Nadaeu report, which may have been at an early stage of the discovery process and some stuff is always misreported in real time.

Rudy's evidence wasn't "all over the place". again, none of it was in the bedroom where you claimed he came in through the window and then ransacked Fiol's clothes for reasons unknown (maybe he was into fashion?)

I love it when people like you present yourself as Guardians of Science. that's what liberals do in the global warming debate as well. I'm a mechanical engineer and I think that I do ok in scientific discussions and I'm surell not anti-science or logic. engineering is the useful application of science.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

fingerprint map at Friends of Amanda

To the best of my knowledge the diagram was first made public at the FOA website, then it was picked up elsewhere, including IIP and PMF, link here. Do you doubt its authenticity? Can you come up with a citation from Ms. Nadeau to back up your claim? The Examiner wrote, "The Italian news agency ANSA also reported that fingerprint expert, Giuseppe Privitera, testified that 35 fingerprints and 13 palm prints were found and identified in the house where Kercher was slain.

"According to the ANSA Privitera testified that of these, five prints were Sollecito's, one was Knox's, 17 were the victim's, and most of the rest were from Meredith's roommates and boyfriend. One bloody palm print was found on a pillow near the victim and was identified to be that of Guede, while four prints found in the victim's room were never identified." Ann Wise also reported on the fingerprints.

 

[DrTesla]

Ah, so you agree that the evidence for Rudy having climbed in the window is overwhelming. We progress.

Rolfe.

where is your evidence for that, brother.

would you have broken into that cottage via that route if there was a windown lower down on the other side of the house not in sight of the main road? Seem slike a real big hassle to me to have to climb all the way up there at least twice. you'd think this house was loaded with expensive posessions if he's going to take that much time and effort to break into that. it's not like Meridith was a Hollywood starlet either, she's ok looking but not exactly what I would call unbelievably attractive. seems to me if he just wanted to rape her, he could just stalk her and wait for her to come back and then just push his way into the house as she walks in. if his goal was to steal money or possesions, he sure forgot to do that. I can't see some dude just going through some girl's clothing and not taking anything else if this was about stealing stuff. maybe he was on drugs? LOL

 

[DrTesla]

To the best of my knowledge the diagram was first made public at the FOA website, then it was picked up elsewhere, including IIP and PMF, link here. Do you doubt its authenticity? Can you come up with a citation from Ms. Nadeau to back up your claim? The Examiner wrote, "The Italian news agency ANSA also reported that fingerprint expert, Giuseppe Privitera, testified that 35 fingerprints and 13 palm prints were found and identified in the house where Kercher was slain.

According to the ANSA Privitera testified that of these, five prints were Sollecito's, one was Knox's, 17 were the victim's, and most of the rest were from Meredith's roommates and boyfriend. One bloody palm print was found on a pillow near the victim and was identified to be that of Guede, while four prints found in the victim's room were never identified." Ann Wise also reported on the fingerprints.

ok, i'll concede the fingerprints and maybe I look more into it on my own, the only interest I had in that would be the lack of fingerprints found would point toward a cleanup but there is other evidence of the cleanup as I pointed out, the luminol exposed bloody footprints, the running washing machine, the fact there were no bloody prints leading up to the one on the bathroom matt, the lamp on the floor in victim's bedroom. etc.

 

[DrTesla]

Here is Bruce Fischer, mall clerk and source authority on Knox's innocence, defaming the prosecuter Mignini:

"Guiliano Mignini was the lead prosecutor in the Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito murder trial. Mignini was quick to take complete control over the investigation. Mignini had a vision of how this crime took place. He believed the crime started out as a sadistic sex game that turned into a brutal murder when Meredith refused to participate. His fantasy of a group sex game gone wrong was based on nothing more than his imagination. This is not the first time Mignini has had these visions. He already had a history of dreaming up satanic ritualistic murder fantasies. I will talk more about that below. Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba were arrested in Perugia Italy, on November 6th. 2007.
As the investigation progressed, investigators found a hand print on the bed at the crime scene. The finger prints pointed to an African man, Rudy Guede. Further investigation showed all of the evidence at the crime scene pointed to Guede. Patrick Lumumba had an unshakable alibi and he was eventually released. The evidence was clear. There was no evidence at all to suggest that Meredith was killed during a satanic ritualistic group sex game.
Prosecutor Mignini should have taken an entirely new look at the case. He had plenty of evidence to convict Rudy Guede. He had no evidence to convict Amanda and Raffaele. Mignini refused to rethink his original theory. He was convinced that Meredith Kercher was murdered in a group sex game. His office ran a smear campaign against Amanda Knox. Misinformation and outright lies were released to the public from Mignini's office. He was already under investigation for abuse of office in another case. He appeared to be using the same tactics in this case. He successfully destroyed Amanda Knox in the court of public opinion. She was considered guilty long before her trial ever started. This was largely in part to Mignini's use of the media to spread his lies. Mignini succeeded in his quest to convict two innocent people.
Shortly after Amanda and Raffaele were convicted, Mignini himself, was convicted. You can read an update about Mignini's conviction at the bottom of this page. Mignini was convicted of prosecutorial misconduct for his abuses committed during the Monster of Florence case. He received a sixteen month sentence for abuse of office and bugging journalists in connection with the Francesco Narducci (Monster of Florence) case.
There was a series of murders that occurred in Italy during the 1970s and 80s. The perpetrator of the murders was given the name "Monster of Florence" by the press. Young couples who were parked in remote areas presumably to have sex, were shot and the bodies of the female victims were mutilated. Crime experts believed that the perpetrator was a Jack the Ripper type killer. Mignini got involved in the Monster of Florence case while investigating the death of Dr. Francesco Narducci, whose drowned corpse was found in a lake near Perugia. Mignini was far from an expert in these types of murders. He was a conspiracy theorist that liked to dream up wild fantasies. Mignini's theory was that the young couples were murdered so that their body parts could be used in rituals by satanic cults. Mignini believed that Dr. Narducci belonged to this cult, but he had become a security risk, so other cult members decided to kill him and make it look like an accident or suicide.




the charges against Mignini were dropped by the Supreme Court in Italy and they even ruled they should have never even been brought. I think this took place in 2011 and Fischer has never updated his website to reflect this information or just to delete this statement that he was convicted of a crime.

Fischer also asserts that Mignini developed the satantic rite theory in the MOF case but that was developed by somebody else who investigated those crimes in the 1980s. Mignini wasn't interested in satanic rites in the Narducci case...he had evidenced from a tapped phone conversation that Narducci was murdered, and the doctor's wife thought he was murdered as well, so he reopened that investigation.

Mignini NEVER proposed the Meridith murder was about a satanic rite. His first theory it was some of sex game gone bad due to the use of drugs. His final motive theory was it was about tensions b/t the two girls over Knox's lifestyle and possibly money as well.

It's clear that Fischer is repeating Doug Preston's lies about Mignini almost verbatim here and I wouldn't be surprised if he finds himself in a bit of legal trouble in Italy b/c Mignini takes defamation very seriously.

 

[Rolfe]

What "running washing machine"?

Have I entered a time warp without realising it?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Hmmmm. I certainly remember the "satanic rite" theory getting an airing on BBC TV news reports about the murder, right near the beginning.

Rolfe.

 

[DrTesla]

Hmmmm. I certainly remember the "satanic rite" theory getting an airing on BBC TV news reports about the murder, right near the beginning.

Rolfe.

lol, that's b/c a lot of the reporting on this case has come straight from Preston and other friends of Amanda.

Mignini himself told CNN he never said anything about satanic rites in the Knox case. Why would he deny this own motive theory? I never heard of a lawyer being afraid to admit what his motive theory was outside of the courtroom. if it was nuts, surely it would have been nutty for the jury as well?

 

[GWCarver]

Here is Bruce Fischer, mall clerk and source authority on Knox's innocence, defaming the prosecuter Mignini:

"Guiliano Mignini was the lead prosecutor in the Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito murder trial. Mignini was quick to take complete control over the investigation. Mignini had a vision of how this crime took place. He believed the crime started out as a sadistic sex game that turned into a brutal murder when Meredith refused to participate. His fantasy of a group sex game gone wrong was based on nothing more than his imagination. This is not the first time Mignini has had these visions. He already had a history of dreaming up satanic ritualistic murder fantasies. I will talk more about that below. Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba were arrested in Perugia Italy, on November 6th. 2007.
As the investigation progressed, investigators found a hand print on the bed at the crime scene. The finger prints pointed to an African man, Rudy Guede. Further investigation showed all of the evidence at the crime scene pointed to Guede. Patrick Lumumba had an unshakable alibi and he was eventually released. The evidence was clear. There was no evidence at all to suggest that Meredith was killed during a satanic ritualistic group sex game.
Prosecutor Mignini should have taken an entirely new look at the case. He had plenty of evidence to convict Rudy Guede. He had no evidence to convict Amanda and Raffaele. Mignini refused to rethink his original theory. He was convinced that Meredith Kercher was murdered in a group sex game. His office ran a smear campaign against Amanda Knox. Misinformation and outright lies were released to the public from Mignini's office. He was already under investigation for abuse of office in another case. He appeared to be using the same tactics in this case. He successfully destroyed Amanda Knox in the court of public opinion. She was considered guilty long before her trial ever started. This was largely in part to Mignini's use of the media to spread his lies. Mignini succeeded in his quest to convict two innocent people.
Shortly after Amanda and Raffaele were convicted, Mignini himself, was convicted. You can read an update about Mignini's conviction at the bottom of this page. Mignini was convicted of prosecutorial misconduct for his abuses committed during the Monster of Florence case. He received a sixteen month sentence for abuse of office and bugging journalists in connection with the Francesco Narducci (Monster of Florence) case.
There was a series of murders that occurred in Italy during the 1970s and 80s. The perpetrator of the murders was given the name "Monster of Florence" by the press. Young couples who were parked in remote areas presumably to have sex, were shot and the bodies of the female victims were mutilated. Crime experts believed that the perpetrator was a Jack the Ripper type killer. Mignini got involved in the Monster of Florence case while investigating the death of Dr. Francesco Narducci, whose drowned corpse was found in a lake near Perugia. Mignini was far from an expert in these types of murders. He was a conspiracy theorist that liked to dream up wild fantasies. Mignini's theory was that the young couples were murdered so that their body parts could be used in rituals by satanic cults. Mignini believed that Dr. Narducci belonged to this cult, but he had become a security risk, so other cult members decided to kill him and make it look like an accident or suicide.




the charges against Mignini were dropped by the Supreme Court in Italy and they even ruled they should have never even been brought. I think this took place in 2011 and Fischer has never updated his website to reflect this information or just to delete this statement that he was convicted of a crime.

Fischer also asserts that Mignini developed the satantic rite theory in the MOF case but that was developed by somebody else who investigated those crimes in the 1980s. Mignini wasn't interested in satanic rites in the Narducci case...he had evidenced from a tapped phone conversation that Narducci was murdered, and the doctor's wife thought he was murdered as well, so he reopened that investigation.

Mignini NEVER proposed the Meridith murder was about a satanic rite. His first theory it was some of sex game gone bad due to the use of drugs. His final motive theory was it was about tensions b/t the two girls over Knox's lifestyle and possibly money as well.

It's clear that Fischer is repeating Doug Preston's lies about Mignini almost verbatim here and I wouldn't be surprised if he finds himself in a bit of legal trouble in Italy b/c Mignini takes defamation very seriously.

Candace Dempsey, author of "Murder in Italy", says:

"Mignini is a prosecutor with a “bizarre past,” indicted for abuse of office (He was convicted, but the appeals court annulled that judgment for geographical reasons, and it has sent the case to Turin for trial)."

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/

 

[anglolawyer]

I'm not that good with times facts and the broke down car rarely gets talked about it but I know True Justice has talked about it in terms it helped give credibility to at least one witness's account. i'll check into it.

Fixed that for you.

thus, the lamp on the floor of the bedroom. there is only one reason why a light source would be needed in that bedroom post murder in my mind.

Sigh.

You neglected to read my that article I linked for you. Can you point to the evidence that proves the lamp was in the room when the door was broken open? Clue: there isn't any.

I do think two witnesses hearing a woman's scream in the 11 o clock hour along with running footsteps seems to indicate there is some doubt about your theory she was dead by 9.30. given raff was stll using his computer by 9.10 it doesn't seem likely they booked over to Knox's house and had murdered her by 9.30. against the crack addict hobo had seen her around 9.45 or so at the basketball court so the earliest the murder took place would be the 10 o clock hour in my view.

So whatever the science and other circumstantial evidence says, she can't have been murdered before 9.30 p.m. because Raff was still using his computer at 9.10. I think you may be guilty of ...

circular reasonsing was the Hellman verdict in spades.

ok,, please provide the specific statement in which Massei allowed the scientific possibity of a single attacker b/c that was not my reading of his report at all.

Google it.

 

[DrTesla]

Candace Dempsey, author of "Murder in Italy", says:

"Mignini is a prosecutor with a “bizarre past,” indicted for abuse of office (He was convicted, but the appeals court annulled that judgment for geographical reasons, and it has sent the case to Turin for trial)."

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/

Candace's usual beat is stuff about food and travel if I understand it correctly. somehow some foodie person ends up being a source authority on Knox's innocence, b/c she lives in Seattle.

really, it's not hard to understand why there are nuts in both the innocence and guilt camp in this case b/c many of these people are from Seattle and that is the epicenter of liberal nuttery in this country. the PMF murder file people buttress my point on this as they will tie their belief Knox is guilty to their ultra liberal beliefs despite no relation. that's partly why I forced the joke about global warming earlier, just to tweak them b/c I know they read this website.

 

[DrTesla]

well guys I'm going to take a break. I think if I post too much there will come a accusation i'm spamming and thus hijacking the thread. i'll let some other people get up their soapbox for awhile and maybe respond to some things they say.

take care and I enjoyed the debate. my disagreement with you doesn't imply hostility toward your point of view. later

oh yeah, I forgot about the car breakdown thing and I need to investigate that a bit b/c it's rarely brought up even on a website like this. i'll post what I find later.

 

[Supernaut]

I admit I may be merely seeing things in the photo in the same way people can see faces in the clouds and if I was at the crime scene and had better photos, I might not see what I think I see. The fact that no prosecutor pointed out what I think I see makes me think I'm probably seeing the texture of the tile look like the heel. Here's the photo I am getting this impression from:

A couple of observations/corrections;

- The mat had been moved at least once (by Amanda on the morning of the 2nd Nov). Even if there had been a contiguous impression of the heel, it would have been elsewhere on the tiled floor.

- What at first-glance appears to be the arch of the foot in the print is actually, in all probablility, from the hem of Guede's jeans. Only the toes and phalanx (balls of the foot) are impressed on the mat.

Many people fail to see this and end up rotating the 'reference' prints of Guede and Sollecito several degrees counter-clockwise when they try to overlay them, and in doing so losing several correspondencies which ARE discernable. With Guede's foot.