Proof of Life After Death!!

[pakeha]

Ooh, shocking sound quality, but thank you anyway. It is clear from the start that he's working like most psychics work, with a probable relative being honoured and the usual "I have a common initial" (at one point he's flat out telling the first guy that his refusal to recognise an 'R' person is that guy's fault...). Ah, I say 'first guy', I'm typing this as I watch it, there's only one guy. Oh, now he's telling the wife she's wrong about the socks. Confidence is an important tool for a con artist, eh?

But I don't doubt that in order to make a living out of this he's got to play the same games they all play. Note again, I'm not advocating for him, nor am I prepared to believe he's talking to the dead (or practising telepathy, for that matter). But I am interested in those unlikely, unique, unknowable 'hits', and a specific explanation of how he pulls that off. 'Just guessing, and banking on marks placing undue significance on coincidence' doesn't, to my mind as a performer, adequately explain them (though it will explain much of his work). Nor does 'he clearly spends a lot of time cheating', though I appreciate that ought to make all of us rather wary of those moments when we wonder if he's not cheating that time. Equally, 'this is a video of him getting it wrong' isn't evidence that he never gets it right.

Again, since earnest enquiry here has had me at various times labelled a truther, a godbotherer, probably a kiddyfiddler and now almost certainly a gullible fool, I do not believe his strange hits indicate any paranormal ability (I tend to define 'paranormal' as 'things that dont actually happen'). But I do find them intriguing, from the point of view of a performer, and unusual in his field.

I'm glad you found the link interesting.
What shocked me in the video was the complete lack of respect JE displayed to the bereaved gentleman.

 

[Pixel42]

Again, thank you for your post, but I'm familiar with the Forer Effect. It relies on generalisations

Not entirely. You can include some quite specific points in the reading; to those who can find a way of interpreting a specific point to apply to them it will leap out at them and they will be the ones to score the reading 5 out of 5, those to whom it doesn't apply will barely register it as they scan the reading for something that does resonate. But even those who can't relate to any of the more specific points will still find enough generalities that resonate to score it 3 or 4.

In the test protocol I described the psychic is free to be as general or as specific as they like in their readings. None have ever managed to produce readings that can be correctly identified by their subjects more often than would be expected by chance.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Robin1, I hope I wouldn't jump up and down, or scream, being British, but I'm prepared to call him a practised, fluent faker on the basis of that clip linked earlier (originally from Fooledmewunz, linked here by pakeha).

But I am open to compelling evidence of something I do not currently believe in. Unfortunately, the big tooth in the pocket could easily have been observed in the queue, surely? There's not enough detail in the Valerie Harper (who she?) story to properly assess it, but at the risk of sounding like all the posters I've just been holding at arm's length, there are several well-known techniques and effects that explain most of what passes for psychic ability.

I am, however, interested and would welcome directions as offered. I'm reluctant to do it here (as previously noted, there are some zealous posters here who leap to label anyone who doesn't parrot the accepted position as 'the enemy'), but I note you don't accept PMs.

 

[jiggeryqua]

In the test protocol I described the psychic is free to be as general or as specific as they like in their readings. None have ever managed to produce readings that can be correctly identified by their subjects more often than would be expected by chance.

Accepted without hesitation or reservation. Indeed, if anyone had pulled it off, we wouldn't be having this conversation Of course, we can also make what we will of the refusal of certain individuals to be tested in this way - but an unwillingness to jump through hoops is not a failure to jump through hoops. ETA: it is, however, most reasonably interpreted as an unwillingness to fail at jumping through hoops...

 

[desertgal]

This is a little bit of a thread drift, but I'm curious about the JE and Valerie Harper thing. I've never consulted a psychic, and haven't watched many performances by them, so I'm not familiar with the various tricks of cold reading...but is it possible that JE may keep a mental list of famous names from different generations to throw out and hopefully score a hit? VH was a pretty popular actress during MTM and Rhoda. If the mark appears, say, ten years younger, JE might try Valerie Bertinelli instead.

Just curious if this is a tactic of cold reading?

 

[Stellafane]

What a shame you didn't include the 'prediction' you made, so we could compare its broadness and veneer of specificity with some of the examples from JE.

All too happy to oblige. As best I can remember, the prediction was this: "In the third week of September (it was around Labor Day at the time) you will slightly injure your leg or foot in an accident that could have been much worse." Sure enough, during the third week of September he had a bike riding accident in which he hurt his shoulder pretty good, and sustained a minor knee injury in the bargain. What sealed it for my friend that while examining him, the doctor literally said "you know, this could have been much worse."

I appreciate that this is not exactly 'scientific conditions', but you can have as many chances as you like to address a remark to me that is pure guesswork but is as unlikely, unique and unknowable as any of those JE examples. Rest assured, if you should eventually get a hit I will bear in mind Pixel's helpful links and not accuse you of psychic ability. While you're thinking of them, consider whether you'd take that route as a performer. I am a performer, and generally prefer to be a little more certain of my material (or play it safer, generally speaking). That said, I've never tried pretending to be psychic (beyond an occasional magic trick).

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. Are you asking me to guess something someone once said to you?

...Again, I'm not advocating for JE specifically, nor psychics/mediums generally, I'm just intrigued by those unusual hits and don't find 'your sources are poor' or 'coincidence!' to be adequate explanations (they're not rebuttals, they're refusals). As for scientific testing and 'doing better than chance', what are the odds of someone having the nickname Miss Piggy, for example? Or are you merely saying that a tested psychic would need more hits than misses?

"Unusual hits" may be fun and entertaining, but I find them of no scientific value. Consider my example above, which probably to this day my friend considers an "unusual hit." If I kept it up, I'd probably have a lot more on my resume (along with a lot of "usual misses" of course, but fans seem to forget those pretty quick). So what? If there's a real psychic out there, they could literally change the entire world by performing one small, seemingly trivial act: do under scientific conditions what they claim to be able to do routinely on stage.

Think of it: they'd be the most famous and important person in history, the one who demonstrated an absolutely unknown and important new phenomenon, who proved that life after death is real and that our consciousness lives forever. Can you even begin to imagine the social and philosophical implications of that? It would certainly change my life profoundly and forever. And yet, not one single psychic will do it. I can only conclude it's because they fear -- or more likely, know perfectly well -- they can't.

 

[jiggeryqua]

All too happy to oblige. As best I can remember, the prediction was this: "In the third week of September (it was around Labor Day at the time) you will slightly injure your leg or foot in an accident that could have been much worse." Sure enough, during the third week of September he had a bike riding accident in which he hurt his shoulder pretty good, and sustained a minor knee injury in the bargain. What sealed it for my friend that while examining him, the doctor literally said "you know, this could have been much worse."

Thank you. I am impressed (though not to the extent of believing you're psychic ) I don't know when Labor Day is (does that matter?), and of course I don't know your friend and whether he was known to be a reckless rider or other such details. All told, it doesn't seem quite as remarkable as the reported UUU hits of JE, but I've long since backed away from appearing to endorse him.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. Are you asking me to guess something someone once said to you?

My apologies, I'm a poet not a scientist, so my communications are often a bit rambly and translucent, if not opaque. I was suggesting, if you had the time and inclination, that you might try to replicate one of JE's unknowable, unique and unlikely remarks by throwing out wild-assed guesses. I was prepared to let you have as many misses as necessary if you could eventually come up with one as striking as those reported for JE.

Mind, that was before viewing absolute proof that JE is not above using all the usual tricks of the 'psychic', and conceding that, in all probability, the reporting of his remarkable hits is at fault.

"Unusual hits" may be fun and entertaining, but I find them of no scientific value. Consider my example above, which probably to this day my friend considers an "unusual hit." If I kept it up, I'd probably have a lot more on my resume (along with a lot of "usual misses" of course, but fans seem to forget those pretty quick). So what? If there's a real psychic out there, they could literally change the entire world by performing one small, seemingly trivial act: do under scientific conditions what they claim to be able to do routinely on stage.

Again, I do not ascribe any scientific significance to JE's unusual hits. I am intrigued as to why he would throw them out [ETA: 'say them to an audience' rather than 'toss them in the trash'] when your average psychic's audience will swallow all the old, more reliable, tricks and how he might be improving his odds of getting a hit from them.

Think of it: they'd be the most famous and important person in history, the one who demonstrated an absolutely unknown and important new phenomenon, who proved that life after death is real and that our consciousness lives forever. Can you even begin to imagine the social and philosophical implications of that? It would certainly change my life profoundly and forever. And yet, not one single psychic will do it. I can only conclude it's because they fear -- or more likely, know perfectly well -- they can't.

I have offered the same conclusion above. However, as I have also said, I am open to compelling evidence of things which I do not currently believe. I do not, however, accept unreservedly the idea that a test contrived by a non-believer is necessarily adequate to the task. "I have eaten dozens of your so-called 'batteries' and yet I do not light up like this 'torch', you charlatan!", to use a crass example.

That said, I don't suppose anyone claiming psychic powers or mediumship has presented an alternative test protocol that would satisfy both sides, for all the reasons you mention.

 

[Robin1]

Jiggeryqua, sorry about not being able to PM me...a nut on my blog made me paranoid (long story).

The tooth was in a leather pouch (Indian medicine bag) in his pants pocket so it was not visible to anyone.

Valerie Harper is an American actress who coincidentally recently has been big news here because of a terminal diagnosis and her brave reaction to it.

I will go over some of the threads and tell you where to find the stories. I'm sorry I don't know how to link it here ( I know, duh) otherwise I would .


Out now (baseball in the rain!) but will try to do later today.

 

[pakeha]

We've always understood why you believe what you believe. We understand precisely the nature of the mistakes that you and Prescott are making.

This.
And we also understand you're trying to use this thread to foist JE upon us.
Yet again.

This is a little bit of a thread drift, but I'm curious about the JE and Valerie Harper thing. I've never consulted a psychic, and haven't watched many performances by them, so I'm not familiar with the various tricks of cold reading...but is it possible that JE may keep a mental list of famous names from different generations to throw out and hopefully score a hit? VH was a pretty popular actress during MTM and Rhoda. If the mark appears, say, ten years younger, JE might try Valerie Bertinelli instead.

Just curious if this is a tactic of cold reading?

Yes, it's a tactic of cold reading.
Well spotted!

 

[carlitos]

This is a little bit of a thread drift, but I'm curious about the JE and Valerie Harper thing. I've never consulted a psychic, and haven't watched many performances by them, so I'm not familiar with the various tricks of cold reading...but is it possible that JE may keep a mental list of famous names from different generations to throw out and hopefully score a hit? VH was a pretty popular actress during MTM and Rhoda. If the mark appears, say, ten years younger, JE might try Valerie Bertinelli instead.

Just curious if this is a tactic of cold reading?

Harper had a show opening on Broadway, and Robin's brother seems to be in the theater scene. If he looks and acts a bit stereotypical as a stage actor, it would be easy. But even that isn't necessary. This was a show in New York, so lots of tourists would have been there, with many of them discussing and planning to go to Broadway shows. Tourists account for almost two-thirds of Broadway ticket sales, so it's kind of an obvious "connection" for Edward to throw out there. All Edward had to do was leaf through the free tourist magazine that most of the audience would have seen in the taxi or hotel.

And don't forget, the "HUGE" connection was that her brother discussed Valerie Harper's show on the phone with a friend, did not buy tickets, and forgot about it for a couple of days. He didn't even remember when Edward said the name. That's a "HUGE" hit when you're someone who wants to believe that a psychic is real. When Robin first wrote about this "HUGE" connection, she inflated the story so that her brother had "just bought tickets to her Broadway show that same day!!" It's obvious that, when you go actively looking for huge connections, you can find them.

Plus, think about the idea of 6 degrees of separation. I can probably name a friend of a friend of Robin's brother and I don't even know him. As for the specific events "drank milk straight from a cow," that's even easier. You have your entire life's history, every story you ever heard about your friends and relatives, and then tenuous connections to all kinds of other stuff - a pitcher shaped like a cow, or a story about grandma living on a farm, etc.

ETA- Here's the link for jiggeryqua, if he doesn't have me on ignore. http://yorktown-somers.patch.com/blog_posts/proof-of-life-after-death . Also, there is a topic in this sub-forum with the same title "proof of life after death," probably about 3 pages back.

 

[jiggeryqua]

ETA- Here's the link for jiggeryqua, if he doesn't have me on ignore. http://yorktown-somers.patch.com/blog_posts/proof-of-life-after-death . Also, there is a topic in this sub-forum with the same title "proof of life after death," probably about 3 pages back.

Since you brought it up, I hope I won't get another yellow card for saying who I have on ignore, but I do I also read posts in threads I'm involved with by people I have on ignore - the extra step required helps to remind me that here is someone capable of pressing my buttons...(or occasionally someone of so little merit that I won't miss their input, but if memory serves you're not in that category).

 

[Robin1]

Harper had a show opening on Broadway, and Robin's brother seems to be in the theater scene. If he looks and acts a bit stereotypical as a stage actor, it would be easy. But even that isn't necessary. This was a show in New York, so lots of tourists would have been there, with many of them discussing and planning to go to Broadway shows. Tourists account for almost two-thirds of Broadway ticket sales, so it's kind of an obvious "connection" for Edward to throw out there. All Edward had to do was leaf through the free tourist magazine that most of the audience would have seen in the taxi or hotel.

And don't forget, the "HUGE" connection was that her brother discussed Valerie Harper's show on the phone with a friend, did not buy tickets, and forgot about it for a couple of days. He didn't even remember when Edward said the name. That's a "HUGE" hit when you're someone who wants to believe that a psychic is real. When Robin first wrote about this "HUGE" connection, she inflated the story so that her brother had "just bought tickets to her Broadway show that same day!!" It's obvious that, when you go actively looking for huge connections, you can find them.

Plus, think about the idea of 6 degrees of separation. I can probably name a friend of a friend of Robin's brother and I don't even know him. As for the specific events "drank milk straight from a cow," that's even easier. You have your entire life's history, every story you ever heard about your friends and relatives, and then tenuous connections to all kinds of other stuff - a pitcher shaped like a cow, or a story about grandma living on a farm, etc.

ETA- Here's the link for jiggeryqua, if he doesn't have me on ignore. http://yorktown-somers.patch.com/blog_posts/proof-of-life-after-death . Also, there is a topic in this sub-forum with the same title "proof of life after death," probably about 3 pages back.

Wow, yet another "accurate" totally not purposely misleading comment from Carlitos!

I'll bet even Sylvia Browne could have predicted that!

 

[carlitos]

For those unfamiliar, Robin1 claims that when I copy/paste a quote from her blog, include a link and italicize the quote within quotation marks, that is somehow misleading. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Stellafane]

Thank you. I am impressed (though not to the extent of believing you're psychic ) I don't know when Labor Day is (does that matter?), and of course I don't know your friend and whether he was known to be a reckless rider or other such details. All told, it doesn't seem quite as remarkable as the reported UUU hits of JE, but I've long since backed away from appearing to endorse him...

The point isn't so much what you or I might think of my bogus prediction, it's that the subject of it was utterly convinced it was real. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if in the retelling the story now goes something like this (he may even remember it this way): "I once knew this dude that predicted to the day that I would hurt my shoulder and knee in a bicycle accident. He even predicted word for word that the doctor would tell me it could have been much worse. And yet he was so narrow-minded he wouldn't admit he was psychic -- totally in denial."

Out of context, that probably sounds as convincing and genuine as most anecdotes involving a "they couldn't possibly have guessed" hit by a psychic. And yet, as has been shown numerous times, such after-the-fact embellishments are common. Indeed, I wouldn't be completely shocked if, in a supreme twist of irony and unintended consequences, my friend has cited that little episode to convice doubters that psychic ability is real!

 

[thenigotoffthebus]

The way it's usually done is that the psychic writes down readings for, say, 5 different people who take it in turns to sit behind a screen. Each subject is then given copies of all 5 readings and asked to pick out the one that they think is theirs - the one that resonates the most and has the most impressive hits. If all that's going on is the Forer Effect all the readings will seem roughly equally accurate, and the one that has the most hits will be the correct one as often as would be expected by chance, i.e. on average only 1 of the 5 subjects will correctly identify their reading. A psychic who can consistently produce readings which significantly more than 1 in 5 subjects can identify as theirs would have produced objective evidence of genuine psychic ability.

This is the great thing about people like John Edward et al. Unlike some other paranormal claims, their claimed abilities lend themselves very easily to properly controlled blind testing of the kind described above. The test can even be set up so that the readings are only for people who strongly believe in the abilities of the performer in question. Such a test would be incredibly easy to pass for anyone that really has these abilities yet almost impossible to pass for those that don't.

So believers have to ask themselves why there isn't lots of examples of positive results from such properly controlled tests?

Robin1, care to comment?

 

[kerikiwi]

The examples Prescott gives that prove JE is real could just as well have been my examples.

I personally experienced what he is talking about.

I lived it.

And because of that, I know Michael Prescott is dead on with his reasoning as to why those examples indeed prove JE can communicate with the dead.

Prescott's examples prove absolutely nothing and are not a reliable transcript of what actually took place.
So yes, his examples prove Edwards is real just as well as your examples.

 

[Robin1]

Robin1, I hope I wouldn't jump up and down, or scream, being British, but I'm prepared to call him a practised, fluent faker on the basis of that clip linked earlier (originally from Fooledmewunz, linked here by pakeha).

But I am open to compelling evidence of something I do not currently believe in. Unfortunately, the big tooth in the pocket could easily have been observed in the queue, surely? There's not enough detail in the Valerie Harper (who she?) story to properly assess it, but at the risk of sounding like all the posters I've just been holding at arm's length, there are several well-known techniques and effects that explain most of what passes for psychic ability.

I am, however, interested and would welcome directions as offered. I'm reluctant to do it here (as previously noted, there are some zealous posters here who leap to label anyone who doesn't parrot the accepted position as 'the enemy'), but I note you don't accept PMs.

Jiggeryqua, here is where you can find out more information with regard to my and my brother's experience with John Edward:

The following posts can all be found on my "Proof of Life After Death!!" thread.

1) My posts # 1731 and # 1740 on page 44 address the discrepancies in my blog vs. my comments with regard to John Edward initially "telling" me vs. "asking" me, as well as my brother having bought Valerie Harper tickets.

2) My brother's (OccamJr2) post # 1707 on page 43 is his first post about his Valerie Harper connection.

His second post #1743 on page 44 is in response to comments and explains his Valerie Harper connection in greater detail.

3) Details of the "Tooth Guy" story can be found in Resume's ( he was a true gentleman and reposted it from my blog for me when I asked for help) post # 1578 on page 40.

It would be great if you had time to also read the posts surrounding those that I mentioned. The more you are able to read of the thread the better...even if it reinforces your current beliefs.

 

[desertgal]

However, it is not OK with me when people profess to all who will listen that they know for sure EVERY medium is a fake. Because they are dead wrong. And that could end up hurting someone.

I know you'll simply ignore this question because you can't answer it, but how would that hurt anyone? Seems to me any attempt to educate someone about the fakery of self alleged "psychics" would actually benefit them in the long run.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Deleted.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I would be careful thinking that a list of JE's similar big misses would automatically mean he was a fake.

Case in point....my brother told JE he had NO connection to Valerie Harper. JE kept insisting he did. My brother kept insisting he didn't. The two of them back and forth. It wasn't until the next day that my dopey brother made the HUGE connection that he actually did have to Valerie Harper merely hours before the event. HUGE.
The point being, everybody at JE's event that night would think JE had a big miss.
But, he didn't.

Another case in point....Tooth Guy. JE asked if anyone on my side of the room had a big tooth in their pocket. Dead silence. JE repeats himself. Everyone is shaking their head no. JE insists and even demonstrates by pretending to pull a tooth out of his pocket. Nope, sorry John ...you are wrong again. JE is clearly frustrated and finally after a few more tries moves on...leaving yet another big hit unvalidated.

It wasn't till after the show as our new friend pulled money out of his pocket that Tooth Guy realized he actually had a big tooth in his pocket!!!! He had forgotten about it.
The point being, everybody at the JE show thought John had another big miss that night.
But he didn't.

If any of you were there that night and witnessed those unvalidated unusual statements you would be jumping up and down screaming, "FAKE!"

But you'd be wrong.

If anyone is interested I could direct you to more detailed posts about those stories.

Oh, the point....sometimes, misses are indeed really hits.

At long last i find the kernel to your problem, For you John never misses and no matter how much effort posters here put into illustrating the obvious con game he's pulling it is to no avail.