Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

[Akhenaten]

Posted by DOC
This thread is not about my opinions.

No, the thread title is: Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru Reply to Thread

Close, but no cigar--your editing and redaction skills rival those of the multiple, unidentified individuals who collected at least 4 different lines of oral traditions into at least two different sources--not to be surprised, like you, they had agenda that were more important than mere demonstrable, physical reality...

(In case that went over your head, the highlighted words are not part of the original title...)

I'd meant to get around to highlighting this myself.

If there's anything that serves more as a 'tell' of the terminal copypastarer than the inclusion in posts of random go-nowhere footnotes and disassociated hyperlink text I have yet to see it.

 

[Mojo]

I find it somewhat amusing that you cut out the sentence immediately after the one you quoted here.

A creationist quote-mining?

 

[pakeha]

We actualy have strong archeological evidence of prehistoric trade routes that stretched from the Middle East to Northern Europe that predate the rising of sea levels at the end of the last glaciation oeriod by quite a long time. News could easily travel along such routes.

I'd like to learn more about those routes, but my Google-fu is misfiring today. Could you link some sources about those routes.

"A massive flood is coming! RUN AWAY!!! Or walk. Walking works too. In fact, I'm gonna do some fishing for a bit, you guys cool with that?"

At the end of the last glacial period sea levels rose fairly slowly. OIS 11 had a sea level rise of 10 cm/year, and is widely considered a good analog for today's climate conditions because it's more extreme than the other interglacials. On a geologic timescale yeah, it's a pretty good rise--but in human terms it simply cannot be called a flood.

So, not the sort of news that would figure in fire-side chats along those trade routes, then.

THE GEOLOGY OF LEBANON
A SUMMARY

C. D. Walley ...

http://almashriq.hiof.no/ddc/projects/geology/geology-of-lebanon/

"Given that Lebanon is largely Jurassic and Cretaceous limestones and rocks of this period are generally very fossiliferous the sequence here is frankly disappointing. In the Jurassic there are, especially towards the top, beds with corals and sponges (often turned into brown weathering silica), enormous echinoid spines and the odd bivalve. The Lower Cretaceous sandstones have plant debris and occasional amber lumps. These are rather dull and cracked and certainly not of jewellery quality. These contain good insects but the reports of preserved DNA in them (and in any other rocks) have now been more or less discounted; Jurassic Park is pure fiction. The rest of the Cretaceous has a number of bivalves and gastropods in it, particularly at specific levels. There are some ammonites in the higher beds. The redeeming feature of the Lebanese fossil record is, of course, the famous Late Cretaceous 'Fish Beds'. These are world class features and probably rank in the top twenty or thirty localities in the world. They are also very important historically; some of the earliest reports of fossils refer to 'fish in the rocks of the mountains of Lebanon'. The four outcrops known present a remarkable picture of life in the sea a hundred million years ago complete with worms, squids, the occasional octopus, prawns and of course fish. Although we might expect to have dinosaur fragments in our thick Jurassic and Cretaceous rocks and as far as I know no dinosaurs have been found in Lebanon, probably because the rocks were mainly marine during these times.4"
Gosh, DOC.
Your linked article talks about a flood which lasted rather more than 40 days and nights.
Why do you think that is?

 

[svenax]

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Klingon.jpg[/qimg]

not yap wa' Hol.

 

[Dinwar]

So, not the sort of news that would figure in fire-side chats along those trade routes, then.

Well, to be fair it wouldn't be an even rise all over the world. Some areas would experience more rapid erosion and fall into the sea. We recently found an Egyptian city that was sunk in part via such a mechanism. But yeah, most of it would amount to "I have to walk a shorter distance from my home to get fish than my great-great-grandfather did".

I'd like to learn more about those routes, but my Google-fu is misfiring today. Could you link some sources about those routes.

I remember hearing about them, though I don't have any references (by "hearing about them" I mean "was taught about them during a post-graduate course on paleoclimatology", by the way). Basically, the Mediterranian Sea is juuuust ballanced between water coming in and evaporation. This makes it of incalculable value to paleoclimatology studies, as any slight shift results in fairly substantial changes in the basin. Right now, it's got a tad more water coming in than evaporating, so flow is out (though extremely salty, so it's out and down) through the Straits of Gibralter. A slight shift in climate can make a hair less water come in than evaporates. Under those conditions, you can get the Med. Sea largely drying up. When this happened last time, humans were around (as were other animals, which were the parts I was interested in). They walked over the dry land currently at the bottom of the sea. Then there was a fairly catestrophic release at Gibralter--basically, the Atlantic poured into the basin. It was undeniably locally catestrophic, on a scale no living human has witnessed, at the western end of the basin--waterfalls miles high, the ocean cutting into the straits almost fast enough to see, the sea rising nearly as fast... It was not, however, even regionally catestrophic in the sense of causing destruction. The sea level rose fast in the Med. basin, but we're not talking "wipe out everyone" fast, just "we need to make a new city" fast, particularly on the eastern end.The trade routes moved, is all, or they began including boats.

These are rather dull and cracked and certainly not of jewellery quality. These contain good insects but the reports of preserved DNA in them (and in any other rocks) have now been more or less discounted; Jurassic Park is pure fiction.

I don't get my pet Tyrannosaurus.

 

[Lucian]

[OT]I hear and obey--with joy. I reside in the central New Mexico highlands--at 6600' altitude. The Aten is, like, really important, really, present, and fine all the time, here.[/OT]

Why does the Aten hate me? 9+ inches of snow in the last two days. Also, I needed an ark to get to my car yesterday. I guess it's not global flooding, but some scholars* say it could be.









*No they don't.

 

[Akhenaten]

SlackerBabbath brought up the issue of other ancient flood accounts similar to the Biblical account of Noah. He is a link that addresses that:

http://1peter315.blogspot.com/2011/06/archaeological-evidence-for-flood.html

Similar?

Addresses?

Really?

Does "similar" actually mean "copypasta" in Apologialand?

Does "make a mockery of" transliterate" as "address" in DOCville?​

Let's focus on a small extract of your source:

But other critics of the Bible aren’t concerned with the similarities in the accounts. They are concerned about the differences between the accounts. And there are differences:

• the Genesis version is monotheistic

I'm somewhat inclined to view this with approval.

What it has to do with Christianity, however, remains mysterious.

• the Gilgamesh Epic is polytheistic

And?

Christianity is polytheistic. My mystification deepens.

• the God of Genesis is holy

Fear not! Help is at hand!

You'll have the silly old bugger patched up in a jiffy​

• the Gilgamesh gods act in unholy ways

Ever heard of the Taliban, DOC?

They talk exactly like this.

• the arks are shaped differently

You have exactly no idea whatsoever what shape the ark in either story was.

• the names of the boat builders are different

 

[Craig B]

... Then there was a fairly catestrophic release at Gibraltar ... The sea level rose fast in the Med. basin, but we're not talking "wipe out everyone" fast, just "we need to make a new city" fast, particularly on the eastern end.The trade routes moved, is all, or they began including boats.

When that last happened to the Med, were there already cities in existence in the Eastern part of that basin?

 

[Dinwar]

When that last happened to the Med, were there already cities in existence in the Eastern part of that basin?

I honestly can't tell you. I don't believe so, for two reasons: first, I think it was far too early for cities to have formed. Second, I got the impression that the area was fairly dessolate. That's only an impression, however, and I put absolutely no stock in it; if anyone has any data to the contrary I highly recommend trusting that above my impressions. The timing, however, most likely prevented cities from forming (though if anyone has any references on the subject I'd appreciate them--all mine are currently in my home office, which is currently being used as bulk storage).

 

[MikeG]

When that last happened to the Med, were there already cities in existence in the Eastern part of that basin?

No, it was 5.5 million years ago.

 

[Akhenaten]

...A non-worldwide flood wouldn't require a Noah or an Ark.

So you don't think boats helped to save lives and animals in the New Orleans hurricane flood.

What's the first thing you notice about New Orleans on this map, DOC?

 

[Dinwar]

No, it was 5.5 million years ago.

I don't doubt it happened then--but are you sure that's the last one? My memory could easily be faulty, and if it is I'd definitely like to know, but I was under the impression that it also happeend in the Quaternary.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

25 pages to tell DOC he doesn't understand plate tectonics?

 

[Craig B]

What's the first thing you notice about New Orleans on this map, DOC?

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/World%20Map.jpg[/qimg]​

Thanks Akh! To DOC: As Akhenaten in his Wisdom has divined, I meant that no Noah or Ark would have been required in the event of a non-worldwide flood to preserve all living species. Of course the Ark might usefully have been pressed into service in New Orleans or elsewhere, as a lifeboat, in the event of a local flood. And very welcome it would have been, too, I'm sure.

 

[Akhenaten]

So you don't think boats helped to save lives in the New Orleans hurricane flood.

Are you suggesting that a flood along the Mississippi deposited the limestone at the peak of Mt. Everest? If not, your comparison is invalid.

You're not going to shatter my life-long fantasy about the annual Dance of the Trilobites™ in Bourbon Street, are you?

 

[Dinwar]

You're not going to shatter my life-long fantasy about the annual Dance of the Trilobites™ in Bourbon Street, are you?

You can dance if you want to.

 

[Akhenaten]

So you don't think boats helped to save lives in the New Orleans hurricane flood.

I missed the bit about the animals getting into the boats two by two in New Orleans.

The US government forced the media to keep a very tight lid on it.

The threat of open warfare between the cows and the rock-badgers threatened the whole enterprise, and you wouldn't believe the ruckus that the bats raised when they saw their fellow birds - the eagles -being loaded.

I hardly dare mention how the unicorns reacted to the whole thing.

 

[carlitos]

You can dance if you want to.

You can leave your friends behind.

 

[Resume]

I hardly dare mention how the unicorns reacted to the whole thing.

Someone told them their horns would act as snorkels. You know the rest.

 

[Akhenaten]

Are you suggesting that a flood along the Mississippi deposited the limestone at the peak of Mt. Everest? If not, your comparison is invalid.

Strawman because I responded to a non-global flood question.

If someone asks a non-global flood question, the answer is "New Orleans" but if someone asks a global flood question the answer is "Lebanon and Peru".​

This floodology stuff is a lot harder than I'd first thought.​

Is the answer to semi-invisible-to-the-eye flooding "Kazakhstan"?