Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I like the goat herder idea. It makes sense of so much.

I can imagine some ancient tribesman scribbling chiselling the "revalations from God" onto a tablet.

"Make me watch the goat herds on a weekend! Well, we'll see about that. "Unclean" Yeah, cloven hoofs, can't eat 'em! Hah!

You know, even better idea. Let's make 'em sacrifice one of the little ******** every now and then. Smelly, ill-tempered things.

Oh, I got an even better one! Let's associate the goat with the personification of evil! Hah! No more goat herding for me!"

The Bronze Age Goat-herders' Anthology of Campfire Tales for Boys: God's Little Instruction Manual for Handling Slaves, Sex Slaves, Kitchen Help, Naughty Offspring, Babysitters and the Soon-to-be-extinct Tribes Next Door. Now with The Egomanical Hippie and His All-Boy Posse Hang Out in Palestine.

 

[Akhenaten]

No, the story (in Genesis) is more than likely based upon an earlier story, which is in turn likely based on an earlier story again ad infinitum.

Whether the original story, if such a thing could be said to exist, was based on a real flood or not is anyone's guess, but the fact remains that neither DOC nor anyone else knows that the Noachian flood (the one that's the topic of the thread) ever occurred.

Well the evidence would seem to suggest that the original story (and yes, such a thing can be said to exist if we consider the 'original' to be the earliest version that we know about) written by the Sumerians about a localised flooding of a river vally was possibly based upon a real event around 5000 years ago which caused the flooding of the Euphrates river vally, and the evidence also suggests that we can link this story to the writing of the Noachian versian via the Babylonian 'Gilgamesh' version.

However . . .

Given the number of ridiculously unlikely things that we would need to assume, such as < 6,000-year-old fossils, mountain ranges that grow at a visible rate and continents zooming around the world's oceans like ginormous speedboats, I think we can make an educated guess about it.

I'm with you all the way on that score.

I think we're pretty much on the same page all round, mate, apart from my having been dealing with DOC's pathetogetics for longer than might be considered healthy.

My apologies for being too strident in my response to you, and a belated welcome to the Forum.


Ankh, Udja, Seneb.

 

[Tricky]

My apologies for being too strident in my response to you, and a belated welcome to the Forum.


Ankh, Udja, Seneb.

Its the drums. The never-ending one-note drumbeat. It does things to a man.

 

[Akhenaten]

Its the drums. The never-ending one-note drumbeat. It does things to a man.

It's when they stop for a while that I start to panic.

 

[zooterkin]

It's when they stop for a while that I start to panic.

Yep, usually a sign of an impending bass solo...

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It's when they stop for a while that I start to panic.

"It's quiet."

"Yeah, too quiet."

"Fool! What that ****** Too quiet? That like too dead or something?"

 

[SezMe]

Its the drums. The never-ending one-note drumbeat. It does things to a man god.

We were talking about Ahke----, right?

 

[leonAzul]

I think we're pretty much on the same page all round, mate, apart from my having been dealing with DOC's pathetogetics for longer than might be considered healthy.

My apologies for being too strident in my response to you, and a belated welcome to the Forum.


Ankh, Udja, Seneb.

This requires a nomination for the neologism "pathetogetics".

 

[leonAzul]

We were talking about Ahke----, right?

Where's that Aberhaten when we need him?

 

[SlackerBabbath]

I think we're pretty much on the same page all round, mate, apart from my having been dealing with DOC's pathetogetics for longer than might be considered healthy.

My apologies for being too strident in my response to you, and a belated welcome to the Forum.


Ankh, Udja, Seneb.

Cheers buddy, and life, prosperity and health to you too.

 

[Akhenaten]

This requires a nomination for the neologism "pathetogetics".

Thank you, sir. That's very kind of you.

 

[DOC]

Actually, it is footnoted; see the little ^[9]. And if you had bothered to follow the link, you would have found that the information about the fossil octopus, including the date, is sourced from this article, which in turn cites an academic journal as its source.

Yeah, but we still don't know who the "actual person" was who estimated the fossils to be 95 million years old. There must be a name, but we don't have one. And it's already been mentioned about the problems with carbon dating marine life and very old material.

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/carbon14.html

And even if the fossil was millions of years old, those fossils could have been ejected during the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" {possible volcanoes} which also happened during the flood according to the bible.

Remember, marine life was created before humans in the Bible.

 

[SlackerBabbath]

Yeah, but we still don't know who the "actual person" was who estimated the fossils to be 95 million years old. There must be a name, but we don't have one. And it's already been mentioned about the problems with carbon dating marine life and very old material.

And even if the fossil was millions of years old, those fossils could have been ejected when the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" {possible volcanoes} mentioned in Genesis erupted under water.

Remember, marine life was created before humans in the Bible.

The article that it is sourced from quite clearly states that a 'Dr. Dirk Fuchs' was the 'lead author' of the report which was made by 'scientists' (plural) so obviously it would appear that the dating was actualy a 'group effort' rather than being carried out by a single person.

Y'see, that's the beauty of science, it's peer reviewed, so you don't have to just take one person's word for it.

 

[Akhenaten]

Yeah, but we still don't know who the "actual person" was who estimated the fossils to be 95 million years old. There must be a name, but we don't have one.

We don't know who the "actual person" was who wrote the story of Noah's ark.

Therefore, according to your very own logic, the story is invalid.

And it's already been mentioned about the problems with carbon dating marine life and very old material.

It may have been mentioned, but it most certainly hasn't been explained how these problems relate to the flood story.

And even if the fossil was millions of years old, those fossils could have been ejected during the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" {possible volcanoes} which also happened during the flood according to the bible.

You cannot use the Bible as evidence for a story in the Bible.

Furthermore, the "{possible volcanoes}" nonsense is your own fanciful addition and not even supported by the Bible, much less by anything else.

Remember, marine life was created before humans in the Bible.

Not according to Genesis 2, and in any case, so bloody what?



Now, perhaps you'll answer this:

Your intimation that Pangea was one continent as recently as 6K years ago seems to indicate otherwise.

Suppose you lay out a chronology:

In your opinion, when did 'god' create the world?

In your opinion, when was Pangea last a single continent?

In your opinion, when did the "global flood" happen?

In your opinion, when did the orogeny of the Himalayas happen?

Please to put those 4 events in the order you want to be able to claim that they happened, with the dates you want to wish for them.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The article that it is sourced from quite clearly states that a 'Dr. Dirk Fuchs' was the 'lead author' of the report which was made by 'scientists' (plural) so obviously it would appear that the dating was actualy a 'group effort' rather than being carried out by a single person.

Y'see, that's the beauty of science, it's peer reviewed, so you don't have to just take one person's word for it.

DOC's aim there was to say "It's your word against mine" so he could claim his opinion was as good as anybody else's, which is fine if two laymen are talking, but not when one person has vastly more knowledge of the matter than the other.

 

[DOC]

Well according to the original Sumerian version of the story in which a king called Atra-Hasis is warned by a god called 'Enki' about the other gods plans to kill humanity with a flood and instructs him to build a boat to save himself and his loved ones, it was a localised flood, apparently through a vally that contained all of humanity at the time. This version was later changed slightly in the version found in the Babylonian 'Epic of Gilgamesh' in which a commoner called Utnapishtim is given the same warning and boat building instructions by the same god and the flood is also changed to a global flood. This version also contains several things that are used in the final Biblical narrative. For example;

"The dove went out and returned" (Gilgamesh XI,147)
"sent forth the dove and the dove came back to him" (Genesis 8:10b-11)

"I sent forth a raven" (Gilgamesh XI,152)
"Noah... sent forth a raven" (Genesis 8:7)

"The gods smelled the sweet savor" (Gilgamesh XI,160)
"And the Lord smelled the sweet savor..." (Genesis 8:21)

"On Mount Nisir the boat grounded" (Gilgamesh XI,140)
"the ark came to rest upon the mountains" (Genesis 8:4)

"The cattle of the field, the beast of the plain" (Gilgamesh XI,85)
"clean animals and of animals that are not clean" (Genesis 7:8)

"into the ship all my family and relatives" (Gilgamesh XI,84)
"Go into the ark, you and all your household" (Genesis 7:1)

"pitch I poured into the inside" (Gilgamesh XI,66)
"cover it inside and out with pitch" (Genesis 6:14)

"And offered a sacrifice" (Gilgamesh XI,155)
"offered burnt offerings on the altar" (Genesis 8:20)

"he touched our foreheads to bless us" (Gilgamesh XI,192)
"And God blessed Noah" (Genesis 9:1)

So the Biblical account is pretty obviously based upon the earlier Gilgamesh version then, (which in turn is based upon the much earlier Sumerian version) infact if all of the authors were still alive, the author of Gilgamesh would have no problem suing the author of the Genesis version for plagiarism.
But this raises an interesting point, I take it from your posts (and please forgive me if I'm wrong about this) that you are a Christian? If that's the case then you must obviously consider the Sumerian gods to be mythological, true? So if the flood story in the Bible is based upon mythology, then doesn't that make the Biblical story itself mythological? After all, you cannot base truth upon mythology. You can base mythology upon truth, but not the other way around.

I'll get to this as time permits, there is an explanation.

 

[DOC]

The article that it is sourced from quite clearly states that a 'Dr. Dirk Fuchs' was the 'lead author' of the report which was made by 'scientists' (plural) so obviously it would appear that the dating was actualy a 'group effort' rather than being carried out by a single person.

Y'see, that's the beauty of science, it's peer reviewed, so you don't have to just take one person's word for it.

Was Dr. Fuchs actually in Lebanon and why aren't these people named?

 

[Craig B]

Remember, marine life was created before humans in the Bible.

There are two accounts of the creation. In Genesis 1 God creates marine life, then land animals, then human beings, male and female together. In Chapter 2 God creates a man, then animals one by one as an experiment to find a suitable help for the man. This fails because Adam rejects the Spectacled Bears, Spotted Bandicoots and other beasts, so then God creates a woman. These two stories are very different, and the second one contains no reference to marine life. That neither of them is an accurate account of the origin of species goes without saying.

 

[Akhenaten]

I'll get to this as time permits, there is an explanation.

Why do you need time? If there's an explanation, post it now.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why do you need time? If there's an explanation, post it now.

The apologetics website he needs to mine for copy pasta is probably down.