Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

[RoboTimbo]

So I assume then you don't believe the tempter was an actual snake based on the bible passage?

Delete. Too off topic again.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So I assume then you don't believe the tempter was an actual snake based on the bible passage?

I asked if there was any statement in Genesis that it was a snake, or that it had legs. Whatchagot?

 

[DOC]

So why did you cite them?

The Wiki site I brought in has 9 footnotes. Mojo talks of 95,000,000 years but that part is not footnoted so we don't know where it came from or who estimated it. If a specific thing I brought in is not footnoted then you are welcome to mention that fact.

 

[Slowvehicle]

So I assume then you don't believe the tempter was an actual snake based on the bible passage?

You must have missed this:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9191426#post9191426

...so here it is again, even though it is OT.

Not even Young's Literal Translation says that the הַנָּחָ֑שׁ had כְּרָעָ֖יו...you could look it up.

How does any of the answer the question of when you, personally, DOC, believe the global flood happened?

I would appreciate an answer...

 

[joobz]

So I assume then you don't believe the tempter was an actual snake based on the bible passage?

no. I don't believe the tempter was an actual snake.
Snakes don't talk.
You know that, right?

 

[Tricky]

Sorry for the double-post, but this reminded me of something. My final for my Isotopic Geochemistry class included the professor handing us a geologic map with some sample sites and a list of dates. We had to tell him the history of the formations. Using the mineral composition, closing temperatures, etc., we were able (well, some of us, anyway--this class drove one person to a mild mental breakdown) to unravel an enormously complex series of events including deposition, multiple episodes of deformation at different temperatures, multiple episodes of intrusion, etc. We got to read the life-history of a mountain range just by being given some basic data. This methodology has ENORMOUS explanetory power, IF you take the time to learn it.

That, I think, is the problem: this stuff isn't intuitive. You've got to work to understand it, and work HARD. That exam took 12 hours to complete. I remember working for 8 hours on a single homework problem. It's incredibly math-intense, and requires a knowledge of multiple academic diciplines (we started with a short introduction to nuclear chemistry and went from there). When someone says "Granite" you need to know what percentage of minerals they're talking about, the closing temperature for the applicable isotope, the effects of decay on that mineral, all of that. And I'm not an expert at it; I only know enough to know if things make basic sense. The real experts would laugh at me calling what I did hard work, given what they have to do on a regular basis.

Most Creationists simply haven't put enough effort in to understand all this, and are innocently duped by the mallicious frauds that control the movement. They think, because it's what they're told, that they understand it adequately. Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth.

You're obviously more knowledgeable about this aspect of geology than I. But that's a good story that illustrates how difficult it is to uncover real evidence. Fundamentalists want some ancient book to tell them everything, without having to work, reason, or really even think about what they're claiming. They will never have a nervous breakdown because finding real truth is too hard. So maybe ignorance really is bliss.

 

[DOC]

How does any of the answer the question of when you, personally, DOC, believe the global flood happened?

I would appreciate an answer...

I don't know if the flood was global or local. Either way I don't know when Noah was born so I don't know. There are gaps in other places in the bible regarding genealogies so there could be gaps in the biblical genealogies from the first human to Noah. Some believe those gaps are hundreds of thousands of years. In that case it wouldn't make much sense to list thousands of ancestors between the first human and Noah.

 

[John Jones]

So I assume then you don't believe the tempter was an actual snake based on the bible passage?

Ahem. The question was:

"Where does Genesis say it was a snake, or that it had legs?"

:facepalm:

 

[John Jones]

The Wiki site I brought in has 9 footnotes. Mojo talks of 95,000,000 years but that part is not footnoted so we don't know where it came from or who estimated it. If a specific thing I brought in is not footnoted then you are welcome to mention that fact.

You cited the same source as Mojo, but you disagree with him using it because the citations supporting his usage of the same article don't meet your standards of evidence?

Is that about right?

 

[X]

The tempter (serpent/snake/lizard/whatever) in Genesis is not the topic of this thread. You don't get to stand on a box and preach whatever random associations spring to mind in an attempt to prove the bible true. Remember what I said in your last thread, DOC? Know your scope and stick to it.


Now, back on topic. Please answer the following:

1) How many years ago are you claiming that the Noachian flood happened? An answer within an order of magnitude is acceptable.

2) How many years (approximately) after the formation of the Earth do you claim that this event took place?

3) What was the extent of this flood? Global, Local, volume of water, etc?



You've bounced around at least three different timelines in this thread alone DOC. If nothing else, you should take the time to make sure you know WHAT you believe and WHY. That is a good rule for anything, but holds especially true if you are going to argue and preach your beliefs. This applies doubly to a skeptics website, where you are guaranteed to get called out on incorrect information and logical fallacies.

Believing the flood happened, but not being able to say when, where, how big, or anything else about it tells us that your ideas are not fully formed and have never been subject to scrutiny. You nitpick every detail when someone here tries to teach you something about textual criticism, history, geology, paleontology, etc. Why do you not apply the same rigors to your own beliefs?

Unless you can answer the questions, the assumption will be that you don't know what you believe. And that instead of putting any effort into thinking about your beliefs, you'd rather take the intellectually lazy approach of spamming whichever first-Google-hit you get that seems to support a position vaguely similar to yours upon skimming.

Answer the questions, DOC.

Think about what you believe. Then, the next time someone challenges your belief, you'll at least have a coherent belief to defend. Right now, you don't even have that.

 

[DOC]

You cited the same source as Mojo, but you disagree with him using it because the citations supporting his usage of the same article don't meet your standards of evidence?

Oh, he can mention it but I just pointed out we don't know where it came from. And we still don't know who exactly is the scientist who went to Lebanon and gave an estimate of what the age of the fossils are.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I don't know if the flood was global or local. Either way I don't know when Noah was born so I don't know. There are gaps in other places in the bible regarding genealogies so there could be gaps in the biblical genealogies from the first human to Noah. Some believe those gaps are hundreds of thousands of years. In that case it wouldn't make much sense to list thousands of ancestors between the first human and Noah.

Thank you for admitting that the bible is not literally true.

This gives an (admittedly OT) answer to why the inconsistencies in the two distinctly different ans contradictory Genesis superstitions, collected from at least four different sources into at least two different traditions for at least two different purposes--you are, evidently, willing to hold that neither is literally true- so the contradictions are not important.

I will, for the moment, gloss over the fact that I asked you what you "believe", and you answered with what you do not "know". Ah, well--tiny steps are, at least, steps.

Would you mind explaining to me what the very old fossils in Peru have to do with demonstrating the existence of a possibly local, historical fludde in Mesopotamia (or thereabouts)? Or are all those fossilized fish just oxidized herrings?

Who do you claim believes that the gaps in the inherently contradictory (collected, edited, redacted, etc.) genealogies in the bible could span "hundreds of thousands of years"?

Would you mind, perhaps, taking a bash at the other timeline questions I have asked of you? Start with one: In your opinion, when do you, personally, think Pangea was last a complete, undivided, continent?

I eagerly anticipate your reply.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The tempter (serpent/snake/lizard/whatever) in Genesis is not the topic of this thread. You don't get to stand on a box and preach whatever random associations spring to mind in an attempt to prove the bible true. Remember what I said in your last thread, DOC? Know your scope and stick to it.


Now, back on topic. Please answer the following:

1) How many years ago are you claiming that the Noachian flood happened? An answer within an order of magnitude is acceptable.

2) How many years (approximately) after the formation of the Earth do you claim that this event took place?

3) What was the extent of this flood? Global, Local, volume of water, etc?



You've bounced around at least three different timelines in this thread alone DOC. If nothing else, you should take the time to make sure you know WHAT you believe and WHY. That is a good rule for anything, but holds especially true if you are going to argue and preach your beliefs. This applies doubly to a skeptics website, where you are guaranteed to get called out on incorrect information and logical fallacies.

Believing the flood happened, but not being able to say when, where, how big, or anything else about it tells us that your ideas are not fully formed and have never been subject to scrutiny. You nitpick every detail when someone here tries to teach you something about textual criticism, history, geology, paleontology, etc. Why do you not apply the same rigors to your own beliefs?

Unless you can answer the questions, the assumption will be that you don't know what you believe. And that instead of putting any effort into thinking about your beliefs, you'd rather take the intellectually lazy approach of spamming whichever first-Google-hit you get that seems to support a position vaguely similar to yours upon skimming.

Answer the questions, DOC.

Think about what you believe. Then, the next time someone challenges your belief, you'll at least have a coherent belief to defend. Right now, you don't even have that.

Well spoken!

 

[John Jones]

Oh, he can mention it but I just pointed out we don't know where it came from. And we still don't know who exactly is the scientist who went to Lebanon and gave an estimate of what the age of the fossils are.

Refresh my memory. Who brought up the fossils in Lebanon first?

Wait. It's coming back to me. It was this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257225

 

[joobz]

I don't know if the flood was global or local. Either way I don't know when Noah was born so I don't know. There are gaps in other places in the bible regarding genealogies so there could be gaps in the biblical genealogies from the first human to Noah. Some believe those gaps are hundreds of thousands of years. In that case it wouldn't make much sense to list thousands of ancestors between the first human and Noah.

So this thread is just speculation about things that may or may not relate to a story that may or may not be literal?

Yup, I'm convinced.

 

[joobz]

DOC DOC DOC DOC DOC DOC
READ THIS!!!
DOC DOC DOC DOC DOC DOC

The tempter (serpent/snake/lizard/whatever) in Genesis is not the topic of this thread. You don't get to stand on a box and preach whatever random associations spring to mind in an attempt to prove the bible true. Remember what I said in your last thread, DOC? Know your scope and stick to it.


Now, back on topic. Please answer the following:

1) How many years ago are you claiming that the Noachian flood happened? An answer within an order of magnitude is acceptable.

2) How many years (approximately) after the formation of the Earth do you claim that this event took place?

3) What was the extent of this flood? Global, Local, volume of water, etc?



You've bounced around at least three different timelines in this thread alone DOC. If nothing else, you should take the time to make sure you know WHAT you believe and WHY. That is a good rule for anything, but holds especially true if you are going to argue and preach your beliefs. This applies doubly to a skeptics website, where you are guaranteed to get called out on incorrect information and logical fallacies.

Believing the flood happened, but not being able to say when, where, how big, or anything else about it tells us that your ideas are not fully formed and have never been subject to scrutiny. You nitpick every detail when someone here tries to teach you something about textual criticism, history, geology, paleontology, etc. Why do you not apply the same rigors to your own beliefs?

Unless you can answer the questions, the assumption will be that you don't know what you believe. And that instead of putting any effort into thinking about your beliefs, you'd rather take the intellectually lazy approach of spamming whichever first-Google-hit you get that seems to support a position vaguely similar to yours upon skimming.

Answer the questions, DOC.

Think about what you believe. Then, the next time someone challenges your belief, you'll at least have a coherent belief to defend. Right now, you don't even have that.

DOC, please take the time to read the post above.
No other comment in this thread is as important as the one above.
It summarizes exactly where we are at and HOW to move forward.

I know it is longer than you typically like to read, but read it.

All of it.
READ IT, PLEASE

 

[Dinwar]

Yeah, but from your post we still don't know who is the person who estimated the fossil to be 95 million years old. That part is not footnoted.

Find the name of the formation. Type it into Google Scholar. Read the first paper you come across until you get to a reference saying something like "...defined by (Smith, 1965)". Go to the references, and find that citation. Find that paper, and read it. That will tell you who, what, why, and how.

Also, as X said, please apply the same levels of criticism to all positions, even yours. At least someone bothered to give an estimate. You've been satisfied thus far with "Some flooding occurred, the animals were involved, that's about all we know."

So I assume then you don't believe the tempter was an actual snake based on the bible passage?

When did you stop beating your wife?

 

[smartcooky]

The tempter (serpent/snake/lizard/whatever) in Genesis is not the topic of this thread. You don't get to stand on a box and preach whatever random associations spring to mind in an attempt to prove the bible true.

Unfortunately X, DOC is incapable of doing anything else, because that is what the God Squad do; its how they function. Every time they put up a point and a critical thinker debunks it, there are set responses like "but what about...", and "but the Bible says..."

There is no debating with this type of person. You will NEVER get a straight answer to a straight question, because giving you straight answers will close off the God Botherer's various escape mechanisms of misdirection, deception, obfuscation and subterfuge.

In that respect, they are unsurprisingly like conspiracy theorists!!

 

[Rincewind]

So I assume then you don't believe the tempter was an actual snake based on the bible passage?

To be honest, DOC, I tend towards believing that it's fiction.

 

[Akhenaten]

...Another find was a snake with two legs. This provided a valuable example of evolution at work, illustrating how ancient lizards became modern snakes

If true, this provides evidence that the author of Genesis had supernatural knowledge that snakes at one time had legs.

Authors.

And about all it provides evidence for is that they had eyes.