LDS

[RoboTimbo]

Fair enough - I understand your point and it's logical. However, the more He interferes with our agency and choices, the less of a reason we have for being here. I believe we are here to make choices, experience consequences, an learn from those consequences. I believe that if He's constantly meddling and obstructing people's bad choices, He's defeating the purpose and slowing our progress. If He does everything for us, we might as well not be here. I think agency, consequences, and eternal progression trump temporary comfort. And that's a difficult position for me to defend if others only look at the short term effects or don't believe in an afterlife.

So your god only gets credit when good outcomes occur?

 

[rcronk]

What about those whose "temporary trials" are so intolerable they commit suicide? How have they progressed?

The cousin of a friend of mind had a daughter who was born blind and deaf. The only time she stopped crying was when someone was touching her, but obviously her parents couldn't be touching her all the time so they mostly just let her cry. I say they but her husband couldn't deal with it and left when the daughter was 5, leaving the mother to cope on her own. The daughter eventually died in her early twenties.

How did this "temporary trial" help the mother progress? How did it help the father progress? How, in the name of all that's holy, did it help the daughter progress?

Excellent questions. Thank you for having a sincere dialog. The progression isn't necessarily automatic. It seems I have to choose a certain attitude toward my trials in order to progress. So it comes down again to choice. See "Man's Search for Happiness" for examples of attitude that have helped me.

 

[rcronk]

You progressed from your suffering because you survived your suffering. How is that starving child supposed to progress when he succumbs to his lack of food, lack of water, and lack of medical care? He can't progress. He is dead. He suffered every day of his short life, and then he died. You believe your god could have saved him, but he chose not to, so the rest of us could progress. Your god is a monster.

Good points. At what point should God have intervened in this child's life? Should He have prevented the mother and father from having children they couldn't feed? Should he have prevented their possibly corrupt government from making corrupt decisions? Should he have prevented you from withholding your money and service toward this child? Should he take away all of our responsibility by making food appear nearby thereby turning the rest of us into even more selfish people? What would you have Him do that would cause the most good for the most people?

 

[rcronk]

So your god only gets credit when good outcomes occur?

I don't follow the path between my post and your summary of my post. I don't think I said that.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I don't follow the path between my post and your summary of my post. I don't think I said that.

I missed where you attributed anything bad happening to your god and you seemed to blame everything on the choices humans make. Can you link to it? Do you believe your god has any impact on the universe or interacts with it in any way?

 

[rcronk]

Absolutely. It isn't proof that The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and was destroyed in making it. We have no evidence that The Flying Spaghetti Monster has ever regrown an amputated limb so that is good evidence that the creator of the universe (The Flying Spaghetti Monster) was destroyed in making it. The universe behaves exactly the same as if The Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

I believe in God and Christ because there are witnesses to them and their creation. That requires faith just like abiogenesis does (except we have no witnesses of abiogenesis on earth millions of years ago). I have then applied the doctrines of these witnesses that deal with salvation and progression to my own life and have found them fruitful, which increases my faith in their witness as well.

 

[Pixel42]

The progression isn't necessarily automatic. It seems I have to choose a certain attitude toward my trials in order to progress.

What attitude should the deaf and blind daughter have chosen which would have enabled her to progress?

What makes you think attitudes are chosen at all? AFAICS they're mostly the result of brain chemistry, which is in turn the result of a combination of genetics and environment. Or do you think someone who is clinically depressed chose to be like that?

 

[rcronk]

I missed where you attributed anything bad happening to your god and you seemed to blame everything on the choices humans make. Can you link to it? Do you believe your god has any impact on the universe or interacts with it in any way?

I believe that He does interact when we ask Him to if it's in our best eternal interest. I've also observed what I believe to be Him allowing me to work through my train wrecks caused by my bad choices or the bad choices of others but it seems to me that He also helps me work through it in the best way possible. As for bad things like earthquakes happening because He set things up this way - I Him credit for that kind of stuff and how we react to it would be our responsibility - moving away from there, helping people out, etc.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I believe that He does interact when we ask Him to if it's in our best eternal interest. I've also observed what I believe to be Him allowing me to work through my train wrecks caused by my bad choices or the bad choices of others but it seems to me that He also helps me work through it in the best way possible. As for bad things like earthquakes happening because He set things up this way - I Him credit for that kind of stuff and how we react to it would be our responsibility - moving away from there, helping people out, etc.

So your god does then deliberately do harmful things to people. Ok, thanks.

 

[Pup]

Fair enough - I understand your point and it's logical. However, the more He interferes with our agency and choices, the less of a reason we have for being here.

My first reaction is: so?

You're assuming there's a reason for "being here," and then looking for that reason. That's an assumption I'm not willing to make without evidence. What's the evidence that there is a reason?

I believe we are here to make choices, experience consequences, an learn from those consequences. I believe that if He's constantly meddling and obstructing people's bad choices, He's defeating the purpose and slowing our progress. If He does everything for us, we might as well not be here. I think agency, consequences, and eternal progression trump temporary comfort. And that's a difficult position for me to defend if others only look at the short term effects or don't believe in an afterlife.

Believing something doesn't mean it's true. The way it sounds to me, is that people find it comforting to believe there's a reason for "being here" and a loving god who's in control, so they create stories that attempt to reconcile that belief with the seemingly random, contradictory things that they observe happening.

Because I don't have a need to be comforted in that way, all the effort at figuring out explanations seems pointless. I can't see why one should go to all that trouble, without first presenting evidence that any reason exists.

 

[rcronk]

What attitude should the deaf and blind daughter have chosen which would have enabled her to progress?

What makes you think attitudes are chosen at all? AFAICS they're mostly the result of brain chemistry, which is in turn the result of a combination of genetics and environment. Or do you think someone who is clinically depressed chose to be like that?

The same attitude as Helen Keller, I suppose. I have faith that we're more than just evolved hydrogen and we can disagree about that - both with our faith. I've seen depression be caused mostly by the choices of parents and children and the lies they propagate and believe and it's extremely difficult to unlearn those lies so once locked into it, I believe it's no longer a choice to stay depressed. I believe it's also possible for depression to be caused by other things. I'm not a psychologist.

 

[rcronk]

So your god does then deliberately do harmful things to people. Ok, thanks.

Short term harm, I guess so. I can't think of any other way to describe it given the facts at hand. I admit it's a difficult one for me to explain and I could be wrong in how I'm thinking through this. I do appreciate you calling me on my junk though when what I say doesn't make sense. That's one of the main reasons I come here for and it's been helpful to me in the past.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Short term harm, I guess so. I can't think of any other way to describe it given the facts at hand. I admit it's a difficult one for me to explain and I could be wrong in how I'm thinking through this. I do appreciate you calling me on my junk though when what I say doesn't make sense. That's one of the main reasons I come here for and it's been helpful to me in the past.

Let me also say a sincere thanks for engaging in actual discussion. Not that my other thanks isn't sincere, of course.

 

[rcronk]

My first reaction is: so?

You're assuming there's a reason for "being here," and then looking for that reason. That's an assumption I'm not willing to make without evidence. What's the evidence that there is a reason?



Believing something doesn't mean it's true. The way it sounds to me, is that people find it comforting to believe there's a reason for "being here" and a loving god who's in control, so they create stories that attempt to reconcile that belief with the seemingly random, contradictory things that they observe happening.

Because I don't have a need to be comforted in that way, all the effort at figuring out explanations seems pointless. I can't see why one should go to all that trouble, without first presenting evidence that any reason exists.

I got these assumptions and beliefs from witnesses that I trust who also gave me "experiments" I could perform that worked, which increased my trust in them. There are no witnesses to abiogenesis so I don't have faith in that theory.

 

[Pup]

I believe in God and Christ because there are witnesses to them and their creation. That requires faith just like abiogenesis does (except we have no witnesses of abiogenesis on earth millions of years ago). I have then applied the doctrines of these witnesses that deal with salvation and progression to my own life and have found them fruitful, which increases my faith in their witness as well.

Without getting into the definition of "witnesses" ...

Abiogenesis requires no faith.

For example, people don't warn each other about avoiding temptation that might lead them to doubt abiogenesis. They don't tell each other stories about the bad things that will happen to them, if they lose their faith in abiogenesis. They don't discuss how to strengthen their faith in abiogenesis, and praise those who think it's true even in the face of contrary evidence.

In fact, just the opposite. If anyone came up with solid evidence against abiogenesis that overturned our current knowledge, he or she would be praised in the long run (though the people he made look foolish might grouse about it in the short run). We no longer have "faith" that the sun orbits the earth, that bloodletting cures most diseases, that heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible, and thousands of other things that have been disproved by evidence, not because we've fallen away from believing in them and need to get our faith back, because they didn't require the same kind of faith as religion in the first place.

 

[rcronk]

Let me also say a sincere thanks for engaging in actual discussion. Not that my other thanks isn't sincere, of course.

You're welcome. Thanks to you too as well.

 

[Empress]

I believe in God and Christ because there are witnesses to them and their creation. That requires faith just like abiogenesis does (except we have no witnesses of abiogenesis on earth millions of years ago). I have then applied the doctrines of these witnesses that deal with salvation and progression to my own life and have found them fruitful, which increases my faith in their witness as well.

What witnesses?

Good points. At what point should God have intervened in this child's life? Should He have prevented the mother and father from having children they couldn't feed? Should he have prevented their possibly corrupt government from making corrupt decisions? Should he have prevented you from withholding your money and service toward this child? Should he take away all of our responsibility by making food appear nearby thereby turning the rest of us into even more selfish people? What would you have Him do that would cause the most good for the most people?

Well, if we're going to get into that, we first need some evidence that your god exists, and why he thinks creating fallible creatures and punishing innocent ones for the faults of the fallible is a good thing to do. Since there's no evidence that your god exists, we're going to have a long discussion over this, but that's fine with me.

The way I see it, you're taking your view that life has some inherent meaning and trying to make that view factual by plugging in things like "gods" and "progression" into the equation. The way I look at things, your god doesn't exist, and bad things happen to innocent children b/c that's the way our world is, even though we as a species are making progress. But if a god did exist, and it loved us, it would prevent suffering, esp of the innocent and powerless. AFAICS, I'm just an average/sub-average human, and I do far more to prevent suffering than your god does.

 

[Pixel42]

The same attitude as Helen Keller, I suppose.

Helen Keller was not born blind and deaf, she had begun to communicate before she became ill. This girl never had any chance to discover the world around her. Are you really saying she chose to cry when she could have chosen to smile?

I have faith that we're more than just evolved hydrogen and we can disagree about that - both with our faith.

I don't have faith, I just don't find the idea of being "evolved hydrogen" so objectionable that I have to make up reasons why it isn't true. Indeed I find it rather marvellous.

I've seen depression be caused mostly by the choices of parents and children and the lies they propagate and believe and it's extremely difficult to unlearn those lies so once locked into it, I believe it's no longer a choice to stay depressed. I believe it's also possible for depression to be caused by other things. I'm not a psychologist.

Neither am I, but this sounds like bs to me.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I got these assumptions and beliefs from witnesses that I trust who also gave me "experiments" I could perform that worked, which increased my trust in them. There are no witnesses to abiogenesis so I don't have faith in that theory.

How did your god create life then?

 

[rcronk]

Without getting into the definition of "witnesses" ...

Abiogenesis requires no faith.

For example, people don't warn each other about avoiding temptation that might lead them to doubt abiogenesis. They don't tell each other stories about the bad things that will happen to them, if they lose their faith in abiogenesis. They don't discuss how to strengthen their faith in abiogenesis, and praise those who think it's true even in the face of contrary evidence.

In fact, just the opposite. If anyone came up with solid evidence against abiogenesis that overturned our current knowledge, he or she would be praised in the long run (though the people he made look foolish might grouse about it in the short run). We no longer have "faith" that the sun orbits the earth, that bloodletting cures most diseases, that heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible, and thousands of other things that have been disproved by evidence, not because we've fallen away from believing in them and need to get our faith back, because they didn't require the same kind of faith as religion in the first place.

Believing that abiogenesis happened on earth millions of years ago does require faith. It's a belief in something you can't see - and that nobody we know of saw. Until we invent a time machine to go back and watch what happened, it will always be faith (meaning belief in something un observable).