Explosion at the Boston Marathon.

Checkmite said:
Reddit's activity was worse than useless; it had an actual negative impact on the total situation.
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You are correct. The same thing happened in 2007 when Steve Fossett's plane disappeared. Not only was crowd sourcing useless, it actually hindered the search because every amateur sleuth who thought they saw the plane took time away from legitimate leads.
 
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zeggman said:
According to the quoted story, Reddit's activity was responsible for the release of the images earlier than they'd planned to release them (if ever). That's not "worse than useless," it's actually quite useful.

The reports from law enforcement involved in the firefight is that the suspects had an entire arsenal of improvised explosive devices. If they had not been killed or captured, there's no reason to assume they wouldn't have been able to hit more targets. Indeed, that may have been what they were doing at M.I.T.

Yes, it's possible (though not likely) that the release of the pictures had nothing to do with the rash actions they took. It's also possible that if the pictures had been released earlier, their actions would have been even more rash, and more people would have died.

You're not going to stop people from trying to help solve cases like this. The social media genie isn't going back in the bottle, short of a draconian limitation of rights that neither of us would like to see. I suggest that more openness, not less, is the preferable course.
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Let's suppose, for a moment, that the 7-11 robbery was also a catalyst for the night's events. Suppose that, if not for the video tape of the suspects at the 7-11, the suspects would have remained at large and undercover and able to perform whatever nefarious acts they had in mind. I know this is unlikely, but that's not really relevant.

If we suppose that's what happened, would you conclude that the robber did no harm? Would you dismiss criticisms of robbery as just so much fuddy-duddiness?

Of course not. A bad act can have accidentally positive consequences.

Similarly, I'll cheerfully admit that it's possible that the online shaming of innocent persons might have accidentally prevented another bombing, thereby accidentally saving lives.

But that doesn't mean that I should accept the activities of the Internet Sleuths as a good thing. Accidentally positive outcomes of boorish behavior don't make the behavior praiseworthy.

Is this so hard to understand?
 
phiwum said:
Honestly?

That's worse than publicly naming a missing man as a suspect?[ And causing such a negative reaction that the family (temporarily) took down the site intended to publicize his case? Or the high school student publicly identified as a suspect?
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The missing guy is likely dead, he's not suffering any harm. As for his family when you seek publicity you invite speculation and rumors, it's the nature of the beast. And the high school student was only identified as not the suspect.

phiwum said:
The police were cautious to the point of forcing an innocent man to strip before detaining him. That's very unusual, but I don't regard it as nearly as great a harm as idle and public speculation on the identity of the bombers.
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Forcing an innocent man to strip in public in front of cameras is "cautious"? I guess that word means something different where you're from. And he wasn't the only one handcuffed and lead away by police in front of cameras.

phiwum said:
There's a big difference: Reddit Scooby-dooers, while well-intentioned, were not reacting to an immediately and apparently dangerous situation, as the on-scene cops were. They were making very public and regrettable accusations from the comfort of their keyboards and with the luxury of time to consider the implications.
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They were working according to the limited information the FBI released. If they had just released the video they had sooner the high school kid and others wouldn't have come under suspicion, and the actual perps may have been identified sooner and the MIT police officer might still be alive.

The fact is once they finally did release the video they had the perps were promptly identified, not by the FBI but by the aunt of the suspects. If she saw the video on TV instead of the internet does that make her a "TV sleuth"?
 
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zeggman said:
According to the quoted story, Reddit's activity was responsible for the release of the images earlier than they'd planned to release them (if ever). That's not "worse than useless," it's actually quite useful.
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No, people don't get credit for the unintended indirect consequences of their actions. It would be like saying the negligence and deliberate malfeasance of the management of the West Fertilizer Plant was "actually quite useful" if one of the 14 victims killed in the resulting blast was a wanted felon or something.
 
Travis said:
That's nice. I guess it pays to lose your legs in a high profile event. Now my cousin lost his leg when a drunk driver clipped him and he went bankrupt, losing his house and everything because of the medical expenses. No surgeon waived those fees for him.
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That's terrible. Insurance didn't pick up the bill? I agree though, we shouldn't have to worry about **** like that. We should have universal health care, but I don't trust the politicians in DC not to **** it up. I did enjoy your hyperbole though....
 
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phiwum said:
Let's say yes. What conclusion do you draw from this?

Do we conclude that, because the outcome might have been otherwise worse, we should congratulate the Internet Sleuths for the fine work they did when they publicized names of innocent persons as suspects?
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I don't think anybody should be posting names, or speculating about names of people they don't know personally in publicly posted photographs. I think anyone who was named has a reasonable basis for a lawsuit against the person who posted the name, and (depending on the details) if I was on the jury, they'd have a good chance of winning a case for defamation or emotional distress.

phiwum said:
That, because their online shenanigens were a distraction and harm to the real investigation to the extent that the FBI considered that a reason to release the photos, resulting in a dangerous showdown, the Reddit Scooby-doo crew deserve kudos for a job well done?
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How were they a distraction and harm to the real investigation? Did the FBI assign someone to monitor Reddit posts who would otherwise have been engaged in interviewing witnesses?

I think Reddit did many things right. They identified backpacks which could possibly have contained pressure cookers. They correctly identified the logos on the hats which is something the FBI either did not do or did not publish. I think they deserve credit for the things they did right as much as they deserve scorn for the things they did wrong.

phiwum said:
Or shall we conclude that, because of the regrettable online activities, the FBI may have changed their preferred schedule of publication of the images, and this change seems to have precipitated the bizarre events of Friday, but we don't know what would have happened otherwise. It might have otherwise been worse. It might have otherwise been better. It might have otherwise been substantially the same. Who the hell knows?
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I agree, it's impossible to accurately predict an alternate timeline. We do know they had plenty of other explosives prepared by Friday night. I think it's probably better that they were panicked into a showdown (if indeed that's what happened) than that they had time to proceed with caution in choosing another target.
 
WildCat said:
And the similarities to this case are...?
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That media outlets, including the New York Post, ran utterly incorrect information about completely innocent people.

And it was the FBI that brought Jewell under suspicion, not "internet sleuths".
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Jewell didn't sue the FBI, and the Post didn't run their "Bag Men" headline because the FBI thought the high school track runners whose photos appeared on the Post's front page were suspects.
 
Travis said:
Now my cousin lost his leg when a drunk driver clipped him and he went bankrupt, losing his house and everything because of the medical expenses. No surgeon waived those fees for him.
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And my mother died unnecessarily from crappy care in an American hospital. Here's the options, take the bastards down for every cent they have or let it go and move on. I choose the latter.
 
WildCat said:
The missing guy is likely dead, he's not suffering any harm. As for his family when you seek publicity you invite speculation and rumors, it's the nature of the beast. And the highs school student was only identified as not the suspect.
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The high school student undeniably felt harmed by the attention.

Forcing an innocent man to strip in public in front of cameras is "cautious"? I guess that word means something different where you're from. And he wasn't the only one handcuffed and lead away by police in front of cameras.
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You can pretend that there was no reason to be concerned that someone might be carrying hidden explosives at this scene, or that public humiliation of an innocent person is so heinous that morality and decency requires the police risk a suicide bomber rather than force him to undress.

You can also pretend that police officers taking persons into custody for questioning is morally equivalent to armchair detectives outing names of persons they suspect. Indeed, it's such a grievous offense to detain and question an innocent person that I suppose we should make a law that only the guilty should ever be treated thus.

They were working according to the limited information the FBI released. If they had just released the video they had sooner the high school kid and others wouldn't have come under suspicion, and the actual perps may have been identified sooner and the MIT police officer mighty still be alive.
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Maybe. I'm not going to guess at what counterfactual outcomes could have resulted nor criticize the FBI for complex decisions that are based on reasoning and information I'm not privy to.

None of this is relevant to the question of whether the behavior of online sleuths was good or bad.

The fact is once they finally did release the video they had the perps were promptly identified, not by the FBI but by the aunt of the suspects. If she saw the video on TV instead of the internet does that make her a "TV sleuth"?
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The FBI asked the public to view the photos (and only those photos) and alert them if they knew the individuals shown.

That's not the sort of online behavior that I'm criticizing.
 
ANTPogo said:
That media outlets, including the New York Post, ran utterly incorrect information about completely innocent people.
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Your post shouldn't say "including" The New York Post, it should just say "as usual" The New York Post.
 
ANTPogo said:
That media outlets, including the New York Post, ran utterly incorrect information about completely innocent people.
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Cite?

ANTPogo said:
Jewell didn't sue the FBI, and the Post didn't run their "Bag Men" headline because the FBI thought the high school track runners whose photos appeared on the Post's front page were suspects.
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Jewell was put under suspicion by the FBI, the trained professionals. The NY Post didn't identify anyone, and the fact is they were men holding bags who fit the limited description offered by the FBI.
 
Kestrel said:
Is there actually evidence that the bombing suspects robbed the 7-11?
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I don't think so. It appears that someone totally unconnected to the marathon bombings robbed the 7-11 and the dumbass terrorist just happened to be there at the time and thus on the store camera.

Evil, yes....smart, not so much.
 
Kestrel said:
Is there actually evidence that the bombing suspects robbed the 7-11?
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They didn't rob the 7-11. S2 bought something, and left, and the 7-11 was robbed by someone else the same night. The image was thus on the security footage.
 
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