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Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

DOC said:
The bible talks of a worldwide flood. Could marine fossils found 700 meters above sea level be evidence of that?
Click to expand...


Interesting articles. Thanks for linking them.
It's unfortunate, however, that you chose to illustrate your disingenuous posting habits, dishonest quote mining and selective reading in this manner.
Don't know what I mean? Read on...


DOC said:
From the article: Catching a mermaid in Jbeil
By Lara Khouzami

"Lebanon's three main fish fossil sites, Hgula, Haqil (both in the mountains above Jbeil) and An Nammura are the only ones in the Middle East,"

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/500/550/551/abisaad/
Click to expand...


Do you know what else this article says?

"About 100 [million] years ago the region known as Lebanon was 200 [meters] below the surface of the Tethys Sea, a geological name for the sea between Eurasian and African plates during the later palaeozoic and mesozoic eras, when the fish thrived before becoming fossilised."​



DOC said:
From Brazil Weird News:

The location of the {shrimp fossil} appears strange for a marine animal ... 700 meters above sea level. But it is not a suprise for the scientists. In the same region were also found fossilized remains of a squid that belongs to the same period.

http://brazilweirdnews.blogspot.com/2011/02/peru-fossil-shrimp-from-cretaceous.html
Click to expand...


Do you know what else this article says?

"[Chiclayo Paleontological Museum Director Honning Meyer] explains that in the place, in ancient Ages, a kind of salt lagoon was formed in there."​


===============================


You attempt to imply that these findings support the Noachian flood. The articles say no such thing and make no such suggestion. The fist article explains that the displaced fossils are due to tectonic action raising the land above sea level. The second article explains that the fossils come from a body of salt water that existed during the Cretaceous period (ending 65 million years ago).

That you would ask why these fossils are there, imply the cause was global flood, and intentionally excise the portions of the articles explaining the existing of these fossils is not a credit to your character!

Why do you lie, DOC?


ETA: Also, DOC, do you suppose Noah's flood was of saltwater or freshwater? Very few aquatic critters can survive in both. How does your flood explain the existence of both fresh and saltwater animals, concentrated in different areas?
 
Last edited:
Apart from the already amply discussed geological NO, logic would also suggest a no, even IF a flood of that nature occurred.

In the conditions as described by the bible you would expect fossils on mountains to follow a very specific pattern, with virtually no fossils at the tops and the vast majority at the bottom. The top would consist of tiny creatures but would then be a mix of dead aquatic and terrestial animals, with all the large animals only found at the bottom, but still mixing aquatic and terrestial in proportional amounts.

Guess what, there is no fossil record even remotely showing that. Objectively examining the fossil record from a flood centered standpoint STILL shows that there was no global flood. Of course this then leads to questions what happened then to cause those fossils to form, and lo, geology appears.
 
GeneMachine said:
Early agricultural civilizations nearly always settled in flood plains. No wonder that floods play a role in mythology, it doesn't even have to be shared.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is true. The myths and legends of many ancient peoples are repleat with flood stories, there are plenty of them

Middle Eastern and Mediterranean
Greco-Roman
Sumerian
Babylonian
Hebrew
Chaldean
Zoroastrian

European
Celtic
Scandinavian

Pacific and Australian Aboriginal
Gunwinggu
Hawaiian
Wiranggu
Tahiti
Palau Isles
Samoan

Asian
Hindu
Andaman Islands
Yao
Miao
Batak
Kabadi
Kamu

Native American
Apache
Squamish
Skagit
Navaho
Chippewa
Hopi
Yakima
Caddo
Pima
Tohono O'odham
Cheyenne
Lakota
Yuma
Quileute
Nisqually
Huichol
Tsetsaut
Shasta

South American Amerinds
Mayan
Aztec
Toltec
Huarochiri
Yamana
Yanomamo

Africa
Mandinke
Yoruba

As you say, there is probably not much in the way of a shared mythology among all these, as many of the details of the accounts of their flood myths differ markedly.

However, when two or more accounts have many points in common, that is at least evidence for (although not proof) of a shared myth or perhaps an indication that the myth is based on possible real occurrences, for example, the Biblical account and the Sumerian Epic Of Gilgamesh.......

"The Gods resolved to cleanse the earth of an overpopulated humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the God Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a huge (seven decks encompassing one acre in area) ark. Utnapishtim then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters rose up, and a storm continued for six days and six nights. The Gods repented and wept upon seeing the global destruction of living beings and stilled the flood on the seventh day. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. A dove was loosed, but it returned, having found no place to rest. A swallow was sent, but it too returned. Seven days later, after having loosed a raven that did not return to the ark, the people began to emerge. Utnapishtim made a sacrifice to the Gods. He and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth."
- the 11th tablet of the Epic of Gilgamesh

The account is familiar in many respects



​
 
smartcooky said:
However, when two or more accounts have many points in common, that is at least evidence for (although not proof) of a shared myth or perhaps an indication that the myth is based on possible real occurrences, for example, the Biblical account and the Sumerian Epic Of Gilgamesh.......

"The Gods resolved to cleanse the earth of an overpopulated humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the God Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a huge (seven decks encompassing one acre in area) ark. Utnapishtim then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters rose up, and a storm continued for six days and six nights. The Gods repented and wept upon seeing the global destruction of living beings and stilled the flood on the seventh day. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. A dove was loosed, but it returned, having found no place to rest. A swallow was sent, but it too returned. Seven days later, after having loosed a raven that did not return to the ark, the people began to emerge. Utnapishtim made a sacrifice to the Gods. He and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth."
- the 11th tablet of the Epic of Gilgamesh

The account is familiar in many respects
Click to expand...
Yes, and when you take the Babylonian captivity into consideration, the conclusion is obvious.
 
Elizabeth I said:
Oooh, so that's where the Northwest Pacific tree octopus came from!
Click to expand...

Putting the E into JREF, I see.

X said:
Interesting articles. Thanks for linking them.
It's unfortunate, however, that you chose to illustrate your disingenuous posting habits, dishonest quote mining and selective reading in this manner.
Don't know what I mean? Read on...

Do you know what else this article says?

"About 100 [million] years ago the region known as Lebanon was 200 [meters] below the surface of the Tethys Sea, a geological name for the sea between Eurasian and African plates during the later palaeozoic and mesozoic eras, when the fish thrived before becoming fossilised."​


Do you know what else this article says?

"[Chiclayo Paleontological Museum Director Honning Meyer] explains that in the place, in ancient Ages, a kind of salt lagoon was formed in there."​

You attempt to imply that these findings support the Noachian flood. The articles say no such thing and make no such suggestion. The fist article explains that the displaced fossils are due to tectonic action raising the land above sea level. The second article explains that the fossils come from a body of salt water that existed during the Cretaceous period (ending 65 million years ago).

That you would ask why these fossils are there, imply the cause was global flood, and intentionally excise the portions of the articles explaining the existing of these fossils is not a credit to your character! ...
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that, X.
 
Is this thread a joke?

Did the OP go to high school?
 
A good question.
What percentage of the population is home-schooled, learning from creationist text-books, I wonder.
 
smartcooky said:
Yes, that is true. The myths and legends of many ancient peoples are repleat with flood stories, there are plenty of them

Middle Eastern and Mediterranean
Greco-Roman
Sumerian
Babylonian
Hebrew
Chaldean
Zoroastrian

European
Celtic
Scandinavian

Pacific and Australian Aboriginal
Gunwinggu
Hawaiian
Wiranggu
Tahiti
Palau Isles
Samoan

Asian
Hindu
Andaman Islands
Yao
Miao
Batak
Kabadi
Kamu

Native American
Apache
Squamish
Skagit
Navaho
Chippewa
Hopi
Yakima
Caddo
Pima
Tohono O'odham
Cheyenne
Lakota
Yuma
Quileute
Nisqually
Huichol
Tsetsaut
Shasta

South American Amerinds
Mayan
Aztec
Toltec
Huarochiri
Yamana
Yanomamo

Africa
Mandinke
Yoruba

As you say, there is probably not much in the way of a shared mythology among all these, as many of the details of the accounts of their flood myths differ markedly.

However, when two or more accounts have many points in common, that is at least evidence for (although not proof) of a shared myth or perhaps an indication that the myth is based on possible real occurrences, for example, the Biblical account and the Sumerian Epic Of Gilgamesh.......

"The Gods resolved to cleanse the earth of an overpopulated humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the God Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a huge (seven decks encompassing one acre in area) ark. Utnapishtim then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters rose up, and a storm continued for six days and six nights. The Gods repented and wept upon seeing the global destruction of living beings and stilled the flood on the seventh day. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. A dove was loosed, but it returned, having found no place to rest. A swallow was sent, but it too returned. Seven days later, after having loosed a raven that did not return to the ark, the people began to emerge. Utnapishtim made a sacrifice to the Gods. He and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth."
- the 11th tablet of the Epic of Gilgamesh

The account is familiar in many respects



​
Click to expand...

No question some are shared, such as Atrahasis / Gilgamesh / Noah. I just wanted to point out that there is no *global* shared myth. Aside from flood plains, one might speculate that some of those myths result from post-ice age flooding, ice-dams breaking, meltwater pulses. No real evidence for that, but I like the idea that oral tradition might reach back that far.
 
DOC, you knew what kind of response you would receive to your OP. In fact, you have been provided such information over and over and .....

So why this thread? Will you absorb the information provided? Is there even a remote chance you will alter you views? Is there anything, anything at all that would cause you to reject the biblical flood notion. If not, again, why this thread?
 
Courier said:
There isn't enough moisture on Earth to flood the entire planet to the tops of the highest mountains.
Click to expand...
This PhD in Geological Engineeringhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Morris#cite_note-5 disagrees:

Did Noah's Flood Cover the Himalayan Mountains?

by John D. Morris, Ph.D.

"We now know, of course, that the earth has plenty of water to launch a global flood. It has been calculated that if the earth's surface were completely flat, with no high mountains and no deep ocean basins, that water would cover the earth to a depth of about 8,000 feet."

He later says:

Mt. Everest and the Himalayan range, along with the Alps, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Andes, and most of the world's other mountains are composed of ocean-bottom sediments, full of marine fossils laid down by the Flood. Mt. Everest itself has clam fossils at its summit. These rock layers cover an extensive area, including much of Asia. They give every indication of resulting from cataclysmic water processes...

http://www.icr.org/article/520/
 
As an exercise before the next post, why do the Alps, the Rockies and the Appalachians show different fossils, DOC?
 
Wow, Morris and the ICR. There's a Blast from the PAst!!!

Not seen those names since the 'old days' of talk.origins
 
SezMe said:
DOC, you knew what kind of response you would receive to your OP. In fact, you have been provided such information over and over and .....

So why this thread? Will you absorb the information provided? Is there even a remote chance you will alter you views? Is there anything, anything at all that would cause you to reject the biblical flood notion. If not, again, why this thread?
Click to expand...

From today's Bible reading, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15:
12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Click to expand...
 
DOC said:
This PhD in Geological Engineeringhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Morris#cite_note-5 disagrees:

Did Noah's Flood Cover the Himalayan Mountains?

by John D. Morris, Ph.D.

"We now know, of course, that the earth has plenty of water to launch a global flood. It has been calculated that if the earth's surface were completely flat, with no high mountains and no deep ocean basins, that water would cover the earth to a depth of about 8,000 feet."

He later says:

Mt. Everest and the Himalayan range, along with the Alps, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Andes, and most of the world's other mountains are composed of ocean-bottom sediments, full of marine fossils laid down by the Flood. Mt. Everest itself has clam fossils at its summit. These rock layers cover an extensive area, including much of Asia. They give every indication of resulting from cataclysmic water processes...

http://www.icr.org/article/520/
Click to expand...


"That Flood caused today's high mountains and deep oceans making such a flood impossible to repeat. This is just as God promised, back in Genesis."

 
We have lots of limestone here in Missouri, so much that it was mentioned "Deep Impact". "The Creation Resources Museum" near Springfield is a fun place to visit. I went there once with PZed. (He was visiting Skepticon IV.) When I asked the "tour guide" about this he said that it could have been laid down in a few days, "sedimentation" being the word he misused. Now there's this about limestone, it's mostly made up of the skeletons of tiny seacreatures. For these creatures to have reproduced enough to make hundreds of feet of limestone they would have to have accumulated faster than interest charges on a Capital One card.
 
DOC said:
This PhD in Geological Engineeringhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Morris#cite_note-5 disagrees:

Did Noah's Flood Cover the Himalayan Mountains?

by John D. Morris, Ph.D.

"We now know, of course, that the earth has plenty of water to launch a global flood. It has been calculated that if the earth's surface were completely flat, with no high mountains and no deep ocean basins, that water would cover the earth to a depth of about 8,000 feet."

He later says:

Mt. Everest and the Himalayan range, along with the Alps, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Andes, and most of the world's other mountains are composed of ocean-bottom sediments, full of marine fossils laid down by the Flood. Mt. Everest itself has clam fossils at its summit. These rock layers cover an extensive area, including much of Asia. They give every indication of resulting from cataclysmic water processes...

http://www.icr.org/article/520/
Click to expand...
So, the surface of the Earth was perfectly flat before the Great Flood?
 
Doc, are you going to serve me a copypasta answer to my marsupial question too? I have checked and there are some sickeningly intellectually dishonest answers out there. What a complete embarrassment to your young earth creationism world view. There is absolutely no hiding behind clever arguments in a discussion about a global flood. This is stuff that can be understood and debunked by curious pre-schoolers. What an embarrassment for your worldview. What were you thinking by starting such a thread?
 
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