Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

I'll just direct you to cylinders reply, as I think that covers the issue.

It does? Then maybe you can break it down to me in layman's terms, because I can't follow the argument being made.

If it's not relevant, ,why did Crump file it with the case ?

I have no idea why Crump does anything, nor do I care.

Crump is not directly involved in this case, nor is he affiliated with those prosecuting it.

Why do you think what Crump does is so important?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Better yet, how is that relevant to what happened on the evening of February 26, 2012?

It's relevant to what happened on the evening of February 26, 2012 because it involves the person who was shot and killed.

It has much more relevance than something like whether GZs brother was arrested for drunk driving a few years ago, which was just posted recently. Yet I don't see you questioning how that is relevant. I wonder why ?

As it was put here: " a public relations firm was hired to draw national media attention to the shooting, and there was a selective presentation made of Trayvon Martin's character."

Just like information on GZ can be used to help arrive at a judgment about how we believe GZ may or may not have actually acted that night, information about TM can do the same.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Oh, and one last thing. Apparently Trayvon's uncle had very recently been in a car accident that had left him in a wheelchair. This happened just prior to Trayvon's murder. It's also possible he went to live with his favorite uncle to help his aunt care for him. If you've ever known anyone who's had a recent paralysis (and I have) it a devastating event. And you have to hire expensive nurses to help transfer people in and out of bed, or to the car, etc. It's not something his aunt would have been able to handle alone. Perhaps that's why he went to stay with them.

You would think that if the reason was something wonderful like that, the TM PR team would be pushing that story to the media. But they aren't. Wrong uncle. So, no.

 

[12AX7]

So you don't want to take a guess as to why the little angel wasn't living with mommy. Or address the how that is not functional and normal. That's fine.


Yes, I think it's important in the overall picture of what kind of teen TM was.

You keep coming back to this for reasons I cannot grasp. "What kind of teen Trayvon was" is...get this...irrelevant.

Why? Because when you boil this case down to the basics, George shot an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing wrong* and had every right to be exactly where he was. An unarmed teenager who tried to run away from George and was chased/followed by George.

You pro-George guys can spin this till the cows come home, this will not change. This is why George is on trial for murder 2. This is what George & Co. will have to explain.

*And spare us the "up until he began to assault poor George" nonsense. The beating wasn't as savage as you guys make it out to be, that's why that pic bothers you so much. So then you guys fall back on the "Trayvon saw my gun and went for it" line.

You're out of gas here.

Re: loaded magazines.

That was the day he was arrested, not the night of the incident.

CCW'ers love them some extra magazines (and "tactical" flashlights). I've spent enough time of gun forums to see some silliness about magazines. For example, look here.

 

[Unabogie]

By offhand comment, do you mean a direct answer to a direct question of where he was living ? That kind of offhand comment ?

Someone may be doing that, but it isn't me.

So you don't want to take a guess as to why the little angel wasn't living with mommy. Or address the how that is not functional and normal. That's fine.

I already did take a guess, but it would only be a guess. Except when I guess, I don't immediately assume some sort of dysfunction. I actually give the victim the benefit of the doubt. His uncle had just suffered a devastating paralysis and his aunt would have needed major help dealing with it. Does that not fit your notion of him as a "little angel"?

But here's some questions for you.

When did he move there?
Why did he move there?
For how long was he planning to stay?

You know none of those things and more than we know why George was estranged from most of his family and left home at 17. I would guess it was because George was a child molester and was shunned, but that's just conjecture.

Yes, I think it's important in the overall picture of what kind of teen TM was.

You mean like these people?

http://www.veryimportantpotheads.com/

Like our last three presidents?

Yep, it says he was perfectly normal before that cretin murdered him. He wasn't even high when this happened, so at most he was a casually user.

 

[Unabogie]

Re: loaded magazines.

That was the day he was arrested, not the night of the incident.

So just to clarify though, you mean weeks after the shooting? Wasn't his gun taken into evidence, or was it returned?

Do you have those dates handy?

 

[Unabogie]

Evidence of financial motive as impeachment.

Impeachment of what exactly? Seriously, this is specious. What could not be covered in the usual back and forth of testimony, cross and recross?

There is not going to be any conspiracy by TM's parents or witness tampering by them. Their testimony will be minor character witness stuff, and if TM's father decides to testify that was his son's voice, then there will be plenty of expert testimony to dilute it.

So impeachment of what? I know you may not know.

The CT is that instead of being actual grieving parents, Tracy Martin conspired with Benjamin Crump to manufacture Witness 8 and that their motive was money. So O'Mara is pursuing this line in the hopes of proving that when Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton get up to testify that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is their dead son, the defense will prove they're only saying it to make money.

 

[Unabogie]

The weirdest thing about it is that Crump decided he needed to file that agreement in in the case to begin with ...

Actually, no. You are aware, I assume, that the defense wants to depose Mr. Crump? And that Judge Nelson ruled that they couldn't, since he was opposing counsel and that his notes, thoughts, and discussions are privileged?

Filing the HOA settlement establishes that he's absolutely opposing counsel in the case record. It's just a move to show the appellate court that O'Mara has no basis for his frivolous appeal.

By the way, what do you make of the fact that the HOA, after seeing the evidence, declined to even wait for George's trial before settling? Will you just chalk that up to riots or political pressure? Because to most people, that would indicate they don't like George's chances at trial. At the least, they agreed that George had a record of violence and mental instability such that no sane HOA would put him him in charge of a NW, and that letting a guy like that go on armed patrols was negligent and led directly to the tragedy. Had George been in the right and was the noble hero some say he is, then why in the world would the HOA pay the Martins a single penny?

 

[triforcharity]

I think it points more to bad judgment than poor taste. Even the other officers with him weren't amused. You may be right about the lawyer but I hope he doesn't get his job back.

I've only heard that one officer wasn't amused, though why that matters, I'm not sure. They were doing "Shoot/no-shoot drills" according to the officer..

/derail

 

[Dancing David]

The CT is that instead of being actual grieving parents, Tracy Martin conspired with Benjamin Crump to manufacture Witness 8 and that their motive was money. So O'Mara is pursuing this line in the hopes of proving that when Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton get up to testify that the voice heard screaming on the 911 call is their dead son, the defense will prove they're only saying it to make money.

Which would be silly, that testimony would be easy to deal with during direct, cross and redirect.

 

[sugaree]

Why have we decided that Trayvon lived somewhere else than with either his mother or father? FWIW, a year ago, Trayvon's uncle seemed convinced that he lived with both his sister Sybrina and his nephew Trayvon.

Fulton worked hard to hold back the tears in an interview Friday at the Miami Gardens home where he lived with Martin, 17, and Martin’s mother and his sister, Sybrina Fulton. On many days, Martin would see his uncle first when he came home from school.

“The reason it hurt me so much and it touched me so hard is because all I had to do was call him and he would come and help him,” said Fulton, who uses a wheelchair. “If I needed to eat, if I needed anything, he would be there for me.”

I cannot yet post links, but that interview can be found at nbcmiamidotcom, byline Willard Shepard, Friday April 6, 2012.

 

[Unabogie]

Why have we decided that Trayvon lived somewhere else than with either his mother or father? FWIW, a year ago, Trayvon's uncle seemed convinced that he lived with both his sister Sybrina and his nephew Trayvon.

I cannot yet post links, but that interview can be found at nbcmiamidotcom, byline Willard Shepard, Friday April 6, 2012.

Because his aunt made an offhand comment - without context - and the people who want to view Trayvon as a thug, criminal, and violent weirdo have concocted a whole mythology about him and his family.

In their world, he was a budding master criminal and whose house he was living in is an extremely important piece of information to judge "what kind of teen he was".

But rest assured, George's history of assaulting police officers, girlfriends, and cousins is irrelevant in the extreme.



Oh, and welcome to the forum!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Why have we decided that Trayvon lived somewhere else than with either his mother or father? FWIW, a year ago, Trayvon's uncle seemed convinced that he lived with both his sister Sybrina and his nephew Trayvon.

I cannot yet post links, but that interview can be found at nbcmiamidotcom, byline Willard Shepard, Friday April 6, 2012.

He was living with Uncle Stephen and aunt Miriam Martin, according to Tracy Martins sister. (note this is not the uncle in the wheelchair)

http://www.power92chicago.com/pages/11402605.php?archive=1&pid=227820

Start at 1:55 minutes in, In answer to the direct question of who was TM living with, you hear Tracy Martins sister say TM was living with his Uncle. Tracy was living with his sister.

I just haven't heard much questioning why TM was not living with either of his parents.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I already did take a guess, but it would only be a guess. Except when I guess, I don't immediately assume some sort of dysfunction. I actually give the victim the benefit of the doubt. His uncle had just suffered a devastating paralysis and his aunt would have needed major help dealing with it. Does that not fit your notion of him as a "little angel"?

Unless, it is GZ. Then you do immediately assume some sort of dysfunction. And if anyone gives GZ the benefit of the doubt, you're all over them.

 

[Alt+F4]

You would think that if the reason was something wonderful like that, the TM PR team would be pushing that story to the media. But they aren't. Wrong uncle. So, no.

How do you think Unaboogie learned knew about the uncle? The media.

 

[Cylinder]

So i ask again, what testimony , exactly and specifically would be impeached?

It's witness impeachment not fact impeachment. It is evidence for the jury to consider when giving weight to a specific witness' testimony.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Judge delays Shellie Zimmerman’s trial until after George's

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/new...icles/cfn/2013/4/17/judge_delays_shellie.html

The attorney for George Zimmerman’s wife was back in court Wednesday.

However, Shellie Zimmerman’s case will not head to trial until after George’s second-degree murder trial.

Shellie waived her right to appear in court. She did show up in court back in February when her attorney, Kelly Sims, tried to get her perjury charge dropped. But the judge refused to dismiss the case.

A state attorney charged Shellie with perjury after accusing her of lying about how much money the couple had, during a bond hearing for George in 2012.

Sims continues to argue the special prosecutor appointed to the Zimmerman case doesn’t have jurisdiction to charge Shellie with perjury, but the judge continues to push her case to trial.

Shellie’s attorney said he is conducting several depositions at the courthouse with witnesses in his client’s case, including bankers who are expected to testify when the case goes to trial.

George’s trial is scheduled to begin June 10.

Interesting. She has witnesses and everything. Someone should tell her attorney that he is delusional and it's obvious she committed perjury.

 

[Cylinder]

DEFENDANT’S RESPONSE TO MOTION TO DETERMINE CONFIDENTIALITY OF COURT RECORDS IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO UNSEAL

As to Paragraph 2 of the Motion, while the agreement may have suggested that the subject matter remain confidential, such a con fidentiality agreement does not and cannot bind this Court, nor does it hind the State Attorney's Office from following its rule regarding required disclosures, nor can it negatively impact on a criminal defendant‘s rights to discovery. To give such a contention any weight would suggest that information might be held confidential from all court proceedings — be them criminal or civil in nature — simply by the entry of a private confidentiality agreement. The results of such an illogical extension would gut all discovery rules, leaving the spoils of litigation to the party with the greater amount of confidentiality agreements, rather than the party who should prevail after full and frank discovery.

[...]

As to Paragraph 4 of the Motion, counsel for Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin once again suggests to this Court that in order to apply Mr. Zimmermaris 6th Amendment rights to confrontation, it must conclude that Ms. Fulton and Ms. Martin encouraged or created the circumstances that gave rise to the killing of Trayvon Martin, or that they would have to have been present during this event. Such a suggestion is without support in law or common sense. The question only revolves around What Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin said or did which may affect their bias. As stated in the Motion to Unseal. during the time when this lawsuit was contemplated, Mr. Martin changed his position concerning a wholly significant fact in this case, whether or not it was his son's voice on the recording. Such a fact is utterly significant to this criminal case, and the benefits that Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin received based upon that
reinterpretation of the facts is just as significant.

As to Paragraph 5 of the Motion, once again counsel for Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin suggests that a foundational question for this Court is whether or not these parents encouraged that their son be killed for financial gain. Again, this is an outrageously inflammatory and niisdirecting contention, and not a relevant consideration for this Court.

 

[Unabogie]

Unless, it is GZ. Then you do immediately assume some sort of dysfunction. And if anyone gives GZ the benefit of the doubt, you're all over them.

I'm all over the double standard. You have exactly zero details about where he was staying beyond this one answer. No context. No time frame. No reason. And yet you use that one fact to state that Trayvon's family situation was "dysfunctional". That's quite a leap.

On the other hand, George was estranged from most of his family, meaning they weren't talking. He was accused by his cousin of raping her over ten years. He was convicted of assaulting a police officer and yelling "**** you" at him. He had a restraining order placed on him because he assaulted his girlfriend. Those are facts with context and detail. The living situation you cite again and again is bereft of that detail. Which is why you snipped and dodged my questions.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/new...icles/cfn/2013/4/17/judge_delays_shellie.html

The attorney for George Zimmerman’s wife was back in court Wednesday.

However, Shellie Zimmerman’s case will not head to trial until after George’s second-degree murder trial.

Shellie waived her right to appear in court. She did show up in court back in February when her attorney, Kelly Sims, tried to get her perjury charge dropped. But the judge refused to dismiss the case.
A state attorney charged Shellie with perjury after accusing her of lying about how much money the couple had, during a bond hearing for George in 2012.

Sims continues to argue the special prosecutor appointed to the Zimmerman case doesn’t have jurisdiction to charge Shellie with perjury, but the judge continues to push her case to trial.

Shellie’s attorney said he is conducting several depositions at the courthouse with witnesses in his client’s case, including bankers who are expected to testify when the case goes to trial.

George’s trial is scheduled to begin June 10.

Interesting. She has witnesses and everything. Someone should tell her attorney that he is delusional and it's obvious she committed perjury.

Notice the highlight!

Her lawyer filed a motion to dismiss and lost. And yet he still filed it because there was a chance she'd have her case dismissed and the problem would all go away. But yet you don't see the same thing from the guy with the perfect self-defense case; one so clear and obvious that Angela Corey should be disbarred for even bringing charges?

But again, I really don't think you understand the meaning of the term "self-serving" because stuff her lawyer says to the press about potential witnesses has no bearing on her chances at trial. But if you really think that "bankers" (meaning tellers) will know something exonerating and be more important than Peter Pan and the obvious attempt at structuring and the obvious knowledge of $150,000 in the bank when she said she didn't know of any money, I'm here to tell you you're wrong.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's witness impeachment not fact impeachment. It is evidence for the jury to consider when giving weight to a specific witness' testimony.

Spelled out in MOMs response to crump:

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0413/resp_to_crump.pdf