Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

There's these things called "motions for dismissal". They get filed and granted when there isn't evidence to support a criminal charge.

Zimmerman's attorney never bothered to file one.

There's also these things called "immunity hearings". They are an opportunity for those wrongly accused of murder to present their case for self-defense.

Zimmerman's attorney's passed on that, too.

So if anyone is railroading Zimmerman into a meritless trial, it's his attorneys.

Did you forget Shellie? If all they needed was to hold an immunity hearing or file a motion for dismissal, why did she go through all the trouble of structuring away their money and hiding a passport and getting herself charged with perjury?

Didn't she talk to batvette first? Not only would he have given her a respectful name to call the Martin family in court (one they'd certainly appreciate and consider a compliment) but he'd have given her solid legal advice about how weak the case was. She never had to plan George's escape? Whoocouldanode????

 

[Rare Truth]

BTW: When is Shellie Zimmerman's perjury hearing? Anyone know?

 

[johnny karate]

BTW: When is Shellie Zimmerman's perjury hearing? Anyone know?

As far as I can tell, a date hasn't been set yet.

 

[quadraginta]

Yes, you wouldn't have to worry. You shouldn't look for a pay rise either.

Either you are doing your job, or you are not. If you doing your job, however marginally, you are getting it done.

Next time you need surgery, be sure to pick a surgeon that is "marginally competent". And if you need an attorney, pick one that "marginally" passed law school and the bar. After all, they are "subsets", right?

We're now into semantics games and willful intellectual dishonesty.

I can sorta kinda understand his point.

"What do you call the guy who graduated at the bottom of his medical school class?"

"Doctor."
​

Somehow I don't think that was quite what he meant, though.

 

[quadraginta]

Don't forget, George has a terrible memory, yet knew all the residents.

Knew all of the hundreds of residents, but only one of the two street names in the neighborhood.

Very selective terrible memory.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

re: this whole "knew everyone in the neighborhood" thing...

I used to have a friend I'd go to movies with fairly regularly, and the number of times he'd run into other people he knew in the theater was outrageous. Happened almost every time we went. He was a very likable, friendly and outgoing guy who made it a point to cultivate as many friendships as possible and be as kind to as many people as he could. So I guess it wasn't surprising.

When I'd recount this to other friends of mine I'd exaggerate it a bit and say things like "we literally never went out to a movie where he didn't run into like 5 people he knew" which wasn't strictly true, sometimes he wouldn't run into anyone, and when he did it probably wasn't really 5 people it was a group out of which he only knew one or two. How many times did it happen when we went out to a movie? I'm not sure, but it felt like a lot.

Is it possible George was using exaggeration to convey the point that he had gone around to new peoples' homes to welcome them to RATL, and was making an effort to know all his neighbors? Is it possible he overestimated what percentage of the neighborhood he had met? Does him doing this mean he's a horrible, horrible liar on everything?

Is it possible that not recognizing Trayvon could still have some significance even if he doesn't actually know everyone there? Is it possible for someone to look out of place or like they're up to no good even if you haven't directly seen them do something illegal? I believe so.

 

[batvette]

By the way, you've already demonstrated how your own issue with race has distorted your view of the case. You came in here claiming that Trayvon was on his high school football team, and how in "the inner city", the competition for those spots is fierce, and therefore Trayvon was an above average athlete. Didn't you peg it as top 2% or some such nonsense?

And look at how much you assumed based on your erroneous assumptions.

First of all, inner city schools can have just as crappy athletic teams as suburban schools. And sometimes worse, since the best athletes get cherry picked to go to better schools.

But second, Trayvon didn't live in the inner city. He lived in the suburbs. His parents were middle class. He wasn't on his high school team.

All of those things you got wrong because you conflated and distorted based on biased assumptions. The same kind of assumptions that lead you to think that breaking off an N-BOMB on this forum would get you anything but instant derision.

Perhaps you should take this as an opportunity to challenge some of your other preconceived notions about this case.

Nope, never did, go back and read what I said again.

Read it exactly.

And now please explain to me what your line of argument in trying to find details to prove me wrong about and put words in my mouth, has in any way to disprove that Trayvon Martin surely had the speed and agility to preclude being cornered by George Zimmerman once the two of them were on foot.

Surely this is why you've directed the argument to now falsely say I said he played on his high school football team, when I really said he was a back or an end on HIS football team, and competition would be strong in an inner city SCHOOL. I may have been wrong by implying it was a school team BUT I did know it had been several years since he played. I knew he didn't play in high school.

Regardless, the faster and more agile players trying out for ANY team are placed at back and end positions. That IS the point, will you deny this fact?

Why split hairs then about a word or two that you've embellished to make an argument now?

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed off topic content

So I'll just reiterate. Martin's age, height, weight, athletic experience and genetics indicate he could have run circles around- or away from- George Zimmerman at any time he chose.

Attack that.

one last thing: here is our little child:

If Zimmerman is about the same size as that 7/11 clerk, which is guessing... hmm...

 

[tsig]

re: this whole "knew everyone in the neighborhood" thing...

I used to have a friend I'd go to movies with fairly regularly, and the number of times he'd run into other people he knew in the theater was outrageous. Happened almost every time we went. He was a very likable, friendly and outgoing guy who made it a point to cultivate as many friendships as possible and be as kind to as many people as he could. So I guess it wasn't surprising.

When I'd recount this to other friends of mine I'd exaggerate it a bit and say things like "we literally never went out to a movie where he didn't run into like 5 people he knew" which wasn't strictly true, sometimes he wouldn't run into anyone, and when he did it probably wasn't really 5 people it was a group out of which he only knew one or two. How many times did it happen when we went out to a movie? I'm not sure, but it felt like a lot.

Is it possible George was using exaggeration to convey the point that he had gone around to new peoples' homes to welcome them to RATL, and was making an effort to know all his neighbors? Is it possible he overestimated what percentage of the neighborhood he had met? Does him doing this mean he's a horrible, horrible liar on everything?

Is it possible that not recognizing Trayvon could still have some significance even if he doesn't actually know everyone there? Is it possible for someone to look out of place or like they're up to no good even if you haven't directly seen them do something illegal? I believe so.

Admitting to lying doesn't help credibility.

 

[johnny karate]

Surely this is why you've directed the argument to now falsely say I said he played on his high school football team, when I really said he was a back or an end on HIS football team, and competition would be strong in an inner city SCHOOL. I may have been wrong by implying it was a school team BUT I did know it had been several years since he played. I knew he didn't play in high school.

He also wasn't from the inner city, so clearly when you made this statement:

Trayvon Martin had been either a running back or an end on his football team, judging by the number on his jersey. In an inner city school the competition for a slot on a football team is intense. He would have been in the top couple of percentile in speed among his peers.

... the bolded potion was just a complete non sequitur that had nothing to do with Martin at all.

Because there is no way you meant to imply that Martin was on his school team and that that school was in the inner city, because those are both patently false claims.

For the record, Martin went to Dr. Michael M. Krop High School notable for its visual and performing arts program, numerous tennis championships, and multiple Silver Knight Award winners.

So yeah... your typical inner city hellhole.

 

[remirol]

Please tell me how you differentiate between a "fight" and a prolonged assault.

Can you please explain to me why this matters again -- and can you make a point of either using correct terms when you do, or otherwise explaining why your speculative, loaded terms are relevant to the fact that George's case for self-defense doesn't pass one of the core criteria, which is (if you forget):

great bodily harm, permanent disability, permanent disfigurement
?

 

[Rare Truth]

It appears we will be privy to the HOA suit soon.

The Clerk has decided to unseal it.

Clerk to unseal settlement with Trayvon Martin's parents

April 8, 2013|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
That secret homeowners association settlement with Trayvon Martin's family may not remain secret much longer.
Seminole County Clerk of Courts Maryanne Morse has written a letter to Trayvon's family attorney, Benjamin Crump, telling him that she doesn't think it meets the standard of a confidential filing, so she intends to make it public in 10 days.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...eorge-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-benjamin-crump

 

[Dancing David]

All those things would be classified great bodily injury. So he did in fact claim he was in fear of great bodily injury.

No They aren't, legally they are not serious physical injury as was discussed by Crimesearch in eh first thread. Please find the Florida statute and case law which supports that a broken nose and lacerations is considered 'serious physical injury' under FL statute and case law.

 

[Cylinder]

Order to Show Cause

ORDERED that Respondent in the above-styled cause shall file with this Court and show cause, on or before twenty days from the date hereof, why the Petition for Writ of Certiorari, filed April 4, 2013, should not be granted. Additionally, it is ORDERED that Petitioner is granted ten days from service of the Response ordered herein to file a Reply thereto.

Courtesy copies were sent to Bondi, Blackwell and O'Mara.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No They aren't, legally they are not serious physical injury as was discussed by Crimesearch in eh first thread. Please find the Florida statute and case law which supports that a broken nose and lacerations is considered 'serious physical injury' under FL statute and case law.

"whaling" on his head with what "felt like bricks", an attempted suffocation, and repeated, forceful slamming of his head against concrete that made his head feel like it would "explode".

The conditions described would appear to meet the criteria of 'serious physical injury'

327.353 Blood test for impairment or intoxication in cases of death or serious bodily injury; right to use reasonable force.—
(b) The term “serious bodily injury” means an injury to any person, including the operator, which consists of a physical condition that creates a substantial risk of death, serious personal disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ.

The gun seals the deal:

And of course, he "felt" like Trayvon had seen his gun through Trayvon's own left leg and through George's hip and reacted to that by reaching for it and exclaiming "you're gonna die tonight ************".

I don't have case examples. Do you have some case examples that would elucidate what specifically you think is required ?

 

[Dan O.]

Statutes > Florida > TITLE XXIV > Chapter 327 VESSEL SAFETY > 327.353 Blood test for impairment or intoxication in cases of death or serious bodily injury; right to use reasonable force.

The law enforcement officer may use reasonable force if necessary to require the person to submit to the administration of the blood test.

 

[Mister Earl]

If Zimmerman is about the same size as that 7/11 clerk, which is guessing... hmm...

Yet that towering behomoth of a child supposedly put the fear of death in Zimmerman, subjected him to a relentless beating... that inflicted such minor wounds that they could be treated just fine with motrin. Or a placebo presented as motrin. Maybe an antiseptic spray to help prevent infection.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes, oops. I realized i was in the entirely wrong section after I re-read my post.
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

 

[Cylinder]

Statutes > Florida > TITLE XXIV > Chapter 327 VESSEL SAFETY > 327.353 Blood test for impairment or intoxication in cases of death or serious bodily injury; right to use reasonable force.

That applies to vessels involved in injury accidents. The police can't just randomly compel medical tests to uncover potential evidence. The first (but by no means final) bar would be an articulated susicion - which was not present in the case of Zimmerman.

 

[Mister Earl]

The conditions described would appear to meet the criteria of 'serious physical injury'

Yet the "conditions described" are not corraborated by Zimmerman's wounds. You seem to have difficulty in dealing with the notion that Zimmerman did not recieve life threatening injuries. Additionally, if Trayvon was in fact beating on Zimmerman the whole time described, that would further reinforce the idea that there was no life theatening battle going on, given it took him that long to inflict those minor wounds.

 

[Mister Earl]

You have a certain expectation of what Zimmerman's wounds should be.

You are not an expert on the subject.

Your speculation will not be a part of his trial.

All that matters is that Zimmerman said he was being beaten and was scared. A witness corroborates this. There is no legal requirement for "X" number of injuries here.

I'm not arguing the legal side of this. I'm arguing the moral and ethical side of it. Zimmerman's wounds show that he was not in a life threatening situation, and therefore had no reason to immediately escalate to lethal force.