Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[lionking]

Post 9091, as referenced from Reuters:

. "The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch"

Explain and substantiate as false.

This was dealt with about 200 pages ago. GZ was not a member of a body recognised by the Neighborhood Watch parent body. He was a volunteer wannabe cop who failed to follow simple NW protocols.

NW Captain? Crap.

 

[Dancing David]

Reasonable, reason-able, a person who is able to reason and therefore not overwhelmed by fear or panic. It is the situation that must be considered and not the state of mind of the person.

Sigh, that is not the way it is sued in the law. It is a 'reasonable person', nor a 'person who is in full possession of all their reason unswayed by emotions and situational stress'.

The term 'reasonable person' is in reference to people who are the opposite: crazy people in florid psychosis, anxious people who are always obsessed and anxious, intoxicated people and people with diminished intellectual capacity.

That point being that a paranoid person who shoots the mail man because they are perceived to be a robot planting mind control devices is not having a 'reasonable fear of loss of life or serious physical injury'.

The questions again as stated before NOT if the person is in a state of panic, but would a reasonable person have panic.

Didn't I say that before?

 

[Dancing David]

But there are provisions for not putting someone who quite clearly acted in self-defense through the financially crippling and extremely traumatic process of a trial when the evidence is deemed clear that it was self-defense by the police.

Unless you think every battered spouse should automatically face a murder trial no matter how convincing the evidence of long-standing abuse is, or every person who shot someone who broke into their house... even if that person was wielding a weapon themselves, etc?

Another good place to determine the merit of this case might have been the grand jury. Or Norm Wolfinger's office.

The fact that the police will largely be called as witnesses for the defense in this case, and that a prosecutor had to be brought in from another county to charge Zimmerman should tell you a LOT about what's going on here and how legitimate it is or is not.

Sigh, how many false dichotomies can you draw in single post.

GZ has had the full benefit of the procedures of law and it would be silly to say otherwise, at any point a higher justice can intervene if they feel that the system was abused. And I am positive that O'Mara would be doing so by appealing to higher justice.

Do you not think that would happen? If GZ's legal rights were trammeled, do you think O'Mara would just stand by and not ask for an immediate injunction or stay?

 

[Dancing David]

I'll raise that Wow to OMG, how do these people get jobs as police officers in the first place.

They are human and subject to all the failings of humans. Tough work too. Sometimes people loose it over time.

 

[This is The End]

He didn't use the word "circling" within the call itself, but he describes TM coming toward his car, looking at him, checking him out, and motioning with his waistband. I believe this is when the circling takes place.

he describes TM coming toward his car

Does Dan's post not show that Z moved Z's truck into M's likely future path??

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9132313#post9132313

If you move your car to where someone is walking then, yes, they will be "coming towards your car".

looking at him

Again, if you move your car to where someone is walking then, yes, they will be "looking at you".

and motioning with his waistband

You mean using his hands free phone device and touching his phone in his waistband, I'm sure.

I believe this is when the circling takes place.

Well that's odd.

 

[Dancing David]

Yes, i think the conclusion from the Sanford PD's initial investigation, that there wasn't enough evidence to charge GZ with a crime, was the appropriate one.

well again if there was not a following of procedure and precedence don't you think that O'Mara would ask for a stay or injunction. What that will be grounds for an appeal has happened that is outside the lines of the law.

Be specific as to what O'Mara is ignoring as grounds for dismissal, a stay or an injunction.

Are the investigating officers the only ones that make these choices?

 

[This is The End]

If they did not, it's entirely on the head of the prosecutor to face an angry "justice for Trayvon" mob who was about to burn down the city.

No justice for trayvon because you won't prosecute. Can you imagine?

Another post that speaks volumes.

 

[This is The End]

The arm in that .gif is never straight enough to account for the lack of angle in the bullet path. The bullet traveled from front to back with no angle at all. Not possible in a prone position.

What is also missing in that gif is M going for the gun.

Remember, the last yell for "help" is within 1 second of the gun shot. Not just within 1 second of Z getting the gun, or M going for the gun. All 3 things would take a bit longer.

 

[remirol]

Btw, I have an open question to anyone who believes George Zimmerman is guilty of murder 2. I'd really appreciate as many of you who fall in that category as possible answering this. Because I'm honestly not sure I understand...

I have not decided whether I think Murder 2 is appropriate yet. I can safely conclude that George is clearly to blame for everything that occurred that night, and the HOA's insurance company obviously agrees with me. But whether the evidence supports Murder 2, manslaughter, or nothing at all is still up in the air IMO.

Can you explain to me what it is you think happened after George got out of his truck, up to the point the gun goes off, and why it is murder?

My speculations are irrelevant to what actually occurred that night; "why it's murder" is addressed above.

ETA: Manslaughter statute re-reproduced here for reference (source):

[SIZE=-1]782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(2) A person who causes the death of any elderly person or disabled adult by culpable negligence [snipped, irre[SIZE=-1]levant to this][/SIZE]
(3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(2)(b) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) A person who causes the death, through culpable negligence, of an officer as defined in s. 943.10(14), a firefighter as defined in s. 112.191, an emergency medical technician as defined in s. 401.23, or a paramedic as defined in s. 401.23, [snipped[SIZE=-1], [/SIZE]irrelevant to[SIZE=-1] this[/SIZE]][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]
[SIZE=-1]It won't be dif[SIZE=-1]ficult to prove that George was culpably negligent[SIZE=-1] in this case[SIZE=-1] due to his action[SIZE=-1]s in [SIZE=-1]continuing and escalating the [SIZE=-1]incident; [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]again, the HOA[SIZE=-1]'s insurance company se[SIZE=-1]ttling is sufficient indicator of [SIZE=-1]which way _that_ [SIZE=-1]will [/SIZE]go at trial[SIZE=-1].[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]T[/SIZE]here are explicit exceptions for "lawful justification" and "excusable homicide"[SIZE=-1]:[/SIZE]

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]782.02 Justifiable use of deadly force.—The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]782.03 Excusable homicide.—Homicide is excusable when committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent, or by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, without any dangerous weapon being used and not done in a cruel or unusual manner.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]782.02 has the potential to apply here; 782.03 does not[SIZE=-1], as [SIZE=-1]George was not exercising usual ordinary caution, and a [SIZE=-1]dangerous [/SIZE]weapon was indeed being used.

[SIZE=-1]I will not [SIZE=-1]quote all of 776 here because it's a[SIZE=-1]n enormous pile of text, but the short version is that 776.0[SIZE=-1]13.([SIZE=-1]3) is t[SIZE=-1]he relevant [SIZE=-1]snippet:

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]776.013.(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]Tra[SIZE=-1]yvon [SIZE=-1]b[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]eing 17 means that George would be up for the [SIZE=-1]f[/SIZE]elony 1 version of this[/SIZE] per section 3. So it seems that George's entire case [SIZE=-1]WRT this [SIZE=-1]charge would [/SIZE]hin[SIZE=-1]ge on his ability to [SIZE=-1]demonstrate that Trayvon attacked George and was at[SIZE=-1]temptin[SIZE=-1]g to commit a felony on [SIZE=-1]George's [/SIZE]person[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE],[SIZE=-1] or was somehow about to cause George's death or "great bodily harm".[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Intriguingly, [SIZE=-1]n[/SIZE]either George nor the HOA's insurance company [SIZE=-1]attempted [/SIZE]to invok[SIZE=-1]e 776.032[SIZE=-1], which directly references 776.013 and state[SIZE=-1]s:

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer,...[SIZE=-1] [snipped] [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]
[SIZE=-1]Instead, the HOA settled. I think there is a very strong possibility that George can be convicted for Felony 1 manslaughter[/SIZE], based on what I know right now; however, again, it's such a time-consuming pain to [SIZE=-1]sort everything out from the penis-waving in this thread that I'm not inclined to [SIZE=-1]tak[SIZE=-1]e a [/SIZE]definite[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]position just yet.
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[Amazer]

Great post.

ETA: This is the same reason any chance of a successful run at an immunity hearing is essentially nil in this trial as well.

I'm shocked that you have soo little confidence in your justice system. You really believe that a sitting judge will disregard the law in such a blatant manner?

 

[Rare Truth]

Does Dan's post not show that Z moved Z's truck into M's likely future path??

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9132313#post9132313

If you move your car to where someone is walking then, yes, they will be "coming towards your car".



Again, if you move your car to where someone is walking then, yes, they will be "looking at you".



You mean using his hands free phone device and touching his phone in his waistband, I'm sure.



Well that's odd.

I think it's in the playback with the 311 call with CS & DS that it ties it down to show the circling just could not have happened.

Not physically in footsteps or in time. Nor does Z mention any "circling" when confronted with the second by second run down of that call. Not one mention.

DS: Can you pause that for a minute? Okay, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, but it seems so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you, can you still see him, and you said, you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said, well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
GZ: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
DS: Okay, but he’s walking up to your car now, right?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: On the tape, right. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.
DS: You’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: Okay. [continues playing call] Pause it right there. Okay, where’s, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: Okay. [continues playing call] Has he moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
DS: On Retreat View Circle.
GZ: Yes, ma’am. I don’t remember even saying he had a button on his shirt.
DS: Okay. [continues playing call]
CS: Something’s wrong with him. What’s that statement supposed to mean?
GZ: I don’t know.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call]
DS: Okay, where are you at now? Are you still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I don’t remember.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call] That statement. These ***holes…what’s behind that?
GZ: People that victimize the neighborhood.
DS: Didn’t you just tell us in there that a week earlier they made an arrest?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: They don’t always get away.
GZ: No.
CS: Good point. [continues playing call] What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
GZ: No, that’s, I was parked where I could see him now.
CS: So you’re…
DS: Okay, so you’re definitely not in front of the clubhouse any more, at this point?
GZ: No.
CS: So you’re ahead of him?
GZ: No, I was behind him.
CS: Okay, so you walked to your car, then walked along this path and you were behind him?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: Okay.
GZ: When I was at the clubhouse he walked…
CS: Are you driving slowly or something?
GZ: No, I pulled over and stopped before I called.
CS: Okay. Okay. [continues playing call=" he ran "] Okay. Full sprint, full-on flight…jogging, trotting…describe the run.
GZ: I don’t remember. I just, cause I was on the phone. Happened so quickly.
CS: Well, ah, I understand that, George, but I guess that it’s um…if it was a bicycle theft I could say okay, but it’s kinda important. I mean, was he running as to evade you, get away from you, ah, maybe got tired of getting wet in the rain. What kinda run was it? I mean, it sounds like he’s running as to get away from you.
GZ: I don’t know why he was running.
CS: But what kinda run was it? Can’t say?
GZ: I don’t know.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call] Okay, is that you getting out of the car?
GZ: Yes.
CS: Okay.
DS: So as soon as he runs, you’re getting out of the car to follow him.
GZ: When he says which way are you running, I turned off the ignition.
DS: I don’t know. [continues playing call]
CS: At that point you’re out of the car?
GZ: I think so.
CS: Okay, so you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: Okay. That’s not fear. You know what I mean?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing, or I’m gonna have. I mean, I don’t have any problems at all, it’s just that… it’s gonna be a problem [continues playing call]

LINK

 

[Dan O.]

You mean using his hands free phone device and touching his phone in his waistband, I'm sure.

That reminds me, the phone records and DeeDee's statement show that Trayvon's connection dropped about this time, just before Trayvon started running.

 

[Cylinder]

That reminds me, the phone records and DeeDee's statement show that Trayvon's connection dropped about this time, just before Trayvon started running.

If that's true, then someone has a huge problem - since she narrates details that happened later.

 

[Amazer]

Convenient? For who? Are you prepared to give GZ the benefit of the doubt for anything? I'd say it's awfully inconvenient, considering anything that comes out of GZ's mouth, unless it serves to bolster a narrative that paints him as guilty of anything/everything he's been accused of or charged with, is immediately dismissed as "a lie" with minimal (if any) contemplation.

Convenient for George... yet another issue where it's (seemingly) impossible to get independent verification of what he claims. So yes, very convenient.

Although I have feeling that GZ's phone records might reveal if and how many times and how long GZ was trying to reach the NEN number.

 

[Rare Truth]

...

As for rude well ....

You know, a lot of us have been here for a looooong time on this, over a year now, with some pretty intense run through of the details and the evidence. Many of us have been through the same details you mention literally hundreds of times.

It's a little insulting to respond to people who have been so long on a topic as if they don't know the evidence and details.

You no doubt have been on other forums discussing this, but JREF is different and the mods keep a close check on civility and tit for tat bickering. TWICE this thread had to go on moderated status, and I'll tell you that really kills a thread.

None of us want that to happen again, so I'd like to ask you politely to tone it down. There is full-bore, head-on tone and attitude that is coming off, and perhaps welcomed at the other sites you visit --

Not here. And there is a pretty intelligent and logical group of folks here (and I say this of both sides of the dialogue) and is, imo, one of the best in offering excellent analysis while maintaining high standards of debate civility.

Please work to help us keep it that way.

 

[Rare Truth]

Originally Posted by batvette Trayvon Martin had been either a running back or an end on his football team, judging by the number on his jersey. In an inner city school the competition for a slot on a football team is intense. He would have been in the top couple of percentile in speed among his peers.

This is an area you might yourself like to review the actual details.

NO, he was not on the high school football team.

Trayvon played for the Optimist Club at 14. Not High school .

So people know who the Optimists are:

Welcome to Optimist International

Optimist Mission: By providing hope and positive vision, Optimists bring out the best in kids.

Optimist International is an association of more than 2,900 Optimist Clubs around the world dedicated to "Bringing Out the Best in Kids." Adult volunteers join Optimist Clubs to conduct positive service projects in their communities aimed at providing a helping hand to youth. With their upbeat attitude, Optimist Club members help empower young people to be the best that they can be.

​

It's a volunteer/charity organizational.

And he stopped playing at 14, but did help his dad, who was a coach there for some seven years.

He and his father, a truck driver, were active in the Miramar Optimist Club, an organization that runs sports and academic programs for young people. Tracy Martin, the teen's father, coached his son's football team.
The boy was a swift athlete, according to a friend, and played a range of positions up to about age 14.

After he stopped playing, he remained active in the organization, volunteering six days a week from June through November of last year to help run the team's concession stand.

Martin cooked hamburgers, hot dogs and chicken wings alongside his father at the stand. He loved talking to the kids, asking them what position they played and whether they were good, Horton recalled.

He would call the mothers 'Ma'am,' and if they had a stroller or an item they needed help with, Martin stepped in. 'Everyone out there loved him,' Horton said.
LINK
​

This, from the club itself, details Tracy's involvement in the volunteer club:

Trayvon Martin is our son. We saw and will always see him as such. He was a pleasant young man that we will always hold in the highest regard. In my eight years at Miramar Optimist, not once did I see him looking displeased or angry in any capacity. The kid addressed all adults as maam or sir.

When his optimist [youth football] days were done, he came back as a volunteer and was still a regular at Forzano Park. Last year, he helped his dad to manage the concession stands for our home games. Trayvon was there every Saturday (8 am to around 9 pm) from July to November. He never complained.

He was passionate about family and friends.

His father Tracy Martin is a fixture at Miramar. He and Jerome Horton, who is also a park administrator share a bond unlike any other.

Tracy was a coach at Miramar Optimist for about seven years. He and Jerome even won a Super Bowl together as 80-pound coaches six years ago. All other coaches, parents, kids hold him in the highest regard. As a dad and coach myself, I've always admired how he interacted with his son. He was a disciplinarian, but very flexible with how he handled our youth.
​

http://www.footballhotbed.com/conte...tin-One-on-One-with-Miramar-Optimist-Director​

 

[johnny karate]

Trials are supposed to be scheduled on sufficient evidence for a conviction. Apparently only a "special" prosecutor was able to view the evidence and conclude that was the case. Apparently enough for a 2nd degree murder charge no less.

Don't be silly. Do you think there is a trial scheduled because they really will get a conviction? Apparently you haven't heard, people get acquitted all the time.

It's pretty obvious to me why they went ahead with charges. If they did not, it's entirely on the head of the prosecutor to face an angry "justice for Trayvon" mob who was about to burn down the city.

No justice for trayvon because you won't prosecute. Can you imagine?

Have a trial and lose, the mob gets deflected by time, and can vent on 12 jurors. A judge. A prosecuting attorney. Police. The media.

I cannot imagine that prosecutor even considering letting the buck stop on her desk.

The Sanford PD made the right call. The mob drove everything after that and subverted the law. By mob pressure alone the officials kept it going, passing the buck to each other.

Great post.

ETA: This is the same reason any chance of a successful run at an immunity hearing is essentially nil in this trial as well.

Agreed.

When people act like it's a "conspiracy" I think that's giving it too much credit. I think it's a series of cowardly buck-passings and justifying to yourself "well the jury will let him off anyway..." etc...

Exactly. It's a mistake to assume District Attorneys/Prosecutors are anything but politicians or are in the making to be. And their marching orders are handed to them by politicians. Truth or justice or even pursuing charges only if they believe they will win, are far outside of their true intentions.
I think their biggest fear at the time was escalation of public unrest to the point of rioting in Miami like we saw in Los Angeles. (though I hear Miami is better prepared, or cannot isolate it away from affluent neighborhoods so would act more effectively. They circled south central and let it burn)
No doubt they'd rather crucify Zimmerman than have to deal with that. In the end they probably won't even do that, they know by the time the legal system does its thing and Zimmerman walks, the anger will have subsided.
Zimmerman will still need plastic surgery, a new identity or move to Fiji.

The conspiracy theorists are planting their flags in this thread with some hilariously ignorant assertions about how our criminal justice system works.

My recommendation to the more reasonable-minded of Zimmerman's defenders is to start distancing yourself from this tripe now.

Because eventually, the well will become so poisoned it will not be possible to argue in Zimmerman's favor without looking like a loon.

 

[johnny karate]

I can concede that it was a poor choice of words. It wasn't, however, intended to be disparaging, but a contrast in the context which I was discussing, which is who uses the word "homie", as Unabogie apparently expected me to know all about how it wasn't in vogue.

I doubled down because I'm irritated with the not-so thinly veiled name calling.

I accept your acknowledgment, and retract any accusations or implications of racism.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The arm in that .gif is never straight enough to account for the lack of angle in the bullet path. The bullet traveled from front to back with no angle at all. Not possible in a prone position.

So you believe GZ shot TM while standing up ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I accept your acknowledgment, and retract any accusations or implications of racism.

Thanks.