Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[AlBell]

phonebook, are you telling me that you think there is no evidence or discrepancies in this case, and that it should have been thrown out immediately?

I think there is enough evidence to support a wrongful death civil suit, but doubt that beyond-a-reasonable-doubt will be achieved on a murder charge.

Without the threat of riots no charges would likely have been filed.

 

[Unabogie]

That's only the most logical conclusion because it fits your narrative. It also puts me in a weird situation because any alternative to your only logical conclusion is automatically deemed "anything to defend Zimmerman" when I simply don't see that as the only possible way things happened and ended up the way they did.

Go for it. Tell me your alternate theory of when the flashlight and cell phone were dropped, and how they ended up 8 feet south of the body. Explain how it matches the known evidence and what Witness 8 said.

 

[Rare Truth]

I think George isn't very bright, even before the added stress of having just shot someone (look at George's past adventures and his "CJ degree" for further evidence of his intelligence). And, I feel this goes directly to his decision-making abilities, particularly in a shooting.





And I agree with everything you just wrote.

And I would believe this in George's case if Georges stories all were similar (even similar inconsistencies). See, George's inconsistencies all seem to change according to the question and who's asking it. To me, they seem way too self-serving.

Didn't George tell the co-worker the next morning when he went into work that he had been mugged?

 

[sgtbaker]

I am not trrying to speak for Unabogie, but it's logical because it fits the known facts. I'd love to hear other ideas, but they must for the facts. Otherwise you have a narrative like Dan wrote:

The only thing I could offer is another narrative, none of which would prove anything. The flashlight, for example, could have gone down as soon has GZ was hit and then kicked about in the subsequent shuffle. The phone could have fallen out of TM's pocket at a later period. In the walk through, GZ describes TM as approaching him from a diagonal and coming to stop directly in front of him, with GZ facing Retreat View Circle and his back to Twin Trees Lane, on the Twin Trees side of the sidewalk T. He makes no mention of what type of punch TM throws; whether it was a jab, a hook, an uppercut, or a right cross. If it was a hook, for example, it would be logical for GZ to stumble/fall to his right, which would bring him further south of the T than it would if TM hit him with an uppercut or a jab. Does that make any sense of what I am trying to say? There is simply not just one way this fight could have gone down.

 

[AlBell]

...

And you don't think that TM's color had anything to do with the charges being suppressed?

I think his color is the only reason charges were filed. If not found guilty the riots will be even worse, but at least deferred.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's not unsubstantiated, and it's certainly more reasoned than the insane conspiracy theory that Benjamin Crump and ABC news are conspiring to present a changeling as a material witness.

That's true, but not saying very much.

There's ample evidence that George was carrying that flashlight, since he said he was. There's ample evidence that Trayvon was carrying that phone, since he was on the phone up until George caught up with him again.

Except when we saw TM last, his phone was in the pocket and he was on hands free. Why would he now be carrying his phone in the rain when he has a hands free headset ?

That they appear 8 feet from the body, to the SOUTH of the body, is fact. What I've presented is the most logical explanation for how those items ended up there. Please explain how they ended up there, 50 feet from the T,and make sure you don't use any speculation.

Should be entertaining. Remember, SMILE as you spin. The judges notice that for style points.

Because they came out of their pockets as they were wrestling around right by where the fight ended. That's not logical ?

 

[Rare Truth]

The only thing I could offer is another narrative, none of which would prove anything. The flashlight, for example, could have gone down as soon has GZ was hit and then kicked about in the subsequent shuffle. ...

Ah, the magic following flashlight. Kicked alongside two bodies for 45 feet.

That's a good 'un.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm not the one repeating the claim lie that they were all young black males.

Neither am I.

That doesn't address the point though - if you have evidence to the contrary, why don't you present it and quit playing coy ?

 

[Rare Truth]

Well, here's some good news for the parents:

Trayvon Martin's parents settle wrongful death claim

Updated: 37 minutes ago SANFORD - Trayvon Martin's parents have settled a wrongful death claim for an amount believed to be more than $1 million against the homeowners association of the Sanford subdivision where their teenage son was killed.



http://www.orlandosentinel.com/

 

[johnny karate]

Without the threat of riots no charges would likely have been filed.

I think his color is the only reason charges were filed. If not found guilty the riots will be even worse, but at least deferred.

No, charges were filed because there is ample evidence to warrant charges being filed.

Charges filed purely for political reasons would have been dismissed by now for lack of evidence.

That's how it works in our legal system.

 

[Rare Truth]

Oh, and look at this:

there is a pending civil case listing Chief Lee/SPD as the Defendants

http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CivilDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=2012CA001276
http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CivilDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=2012CA001276

Plaintiffs:

FULTON SYBRINA
M T
MARTIN TRACY

Defendants:
LEE BILL CHIEF OF POLICE SANFORD POLICE DEPT
SANFORD POLICE DEPT BILL LEE CHIEF OF POLICE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

06/05/2012 ADRE JUDGE REASSIGNMENT PER ADMINISTRATIVE ORDER 12-16-S

03/20/2012 NOCH NOTICE OF CANCELLATION OF HEARING 03/19/12 AT 9:00 AM

03/19/2012 NOCH NOTICE OF CANCELLATION OF HEARING 3/19/12 @ 9AM (COPY)

03/19/2012 M MOTION FOR AN EXPEDITED HEARING/BY PLTFS

03/16/2012 NHCY NOTICE OF EXPEDITED HEARING ON 3/19/12 @ 10AM

03/12/2012 NCI NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIAL INFO WITHIN COURT FILING

03/09/2012 SUMI SUMMONS ISSUED BILL LEE CHIEF OF POLICE SANFORD POLICE DEPT OC/ATTY

03/09/2012 CCST CIVIL COVER SHEET

03/09/2012 CMPL COMPLAINT FILED

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No, charges were filed because there is ample evidence to warrant charges being filed.

Chris Serino disagrees:

On March 13, 2012, Chris Serino sent a capias request to the state's attorney recommending charges of negligent manslaughter against Zimmerman, though Serino maintains he did not believe they had the evidence to support those charges and that manslaughter was only included in the capias in order for the prosecutor's office to continue with their own investigation.[139][140][141][142


Serino also told the FBI that he had felt pressure from three officers within the department to charge Zimmerman although he "did not believe he had enough evidence at the time to file charges", and accused one of these officers of being friendly with Martin's father. He also expressed concern to the FBI about possible leaks of evidence to the media from within the department.[155]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

Charges filed purely for political reasons would have been dismissed by now for lack of evidence.

That's how it works in our legal system.

Maybe that's more like how it should work.

 

[Unabogie]

The only thing I could offer is another narrative, none of which would prove anything. The flashlight, for example, could have gone down as soon has GZ was hit and then kicked about in the subsequent shuffle. The phone could have fallen out of TM's pocket at a later period. In the walk through, GZ describes TM as approaching him from a diagonal and coming to stop directly in front of him, with GZ facing Retreat View Circle and his back to Twin Trees Lane, on the Twin Trees side of the sidewalk T. He makes no mention of what type of punch TM throws; whether it was a jab, a hook, an uppercut, or a right cross. If it was a hook, for example, it would be logical for GZ to stumble/fall to his right, which would bring him further south of the T than it would if TM hit him with an uppercut or a jab. Does that make any sense of what I am trying to say? There is simply not just one way this fight could have gone down.

But it can't have been a right hook. Again, we have evidence. George claims that he was hit once in the nose, breaking it, knocking him down IMMEDIATELY. But we also know the cut was on the right side of his face, meaning the blow came from his left, meaning that it would knock him NORTH.

He was facing south when he was approached, remember?

And that doesn't explain how the flashlight is kicked 50 feet from there. That's not possible. I doubt you could THROW the thing that far if you tried.

 

[sgtbaker]

Go for it. Tell me your alternate theory of when the flashlight and cell phone were dropped, and how they ended up 8 feet south of the body. Explain how it matches the known evidence and what Witness 8 said.

That's the thing, I don't think it has to fit witness 8's narrative because long before all this suspicion was cast on her, I had doubts about her. I do believe she was on the phone but I don't trust the way she came into this case and I certainly don't trust Crumps method of deposing her. I am actually surprised that for all need for consistency and honesty and once a person doesn't clear that bar, 100% nothing they say after that is worth hearing, until it's someone that supports your position.

 

[sgtbaker]

Ah, the magic following flashlight. Kicked alongside two bodies for 45 feet.

That's a good 'un.

Is there a response in there or just sarcasm and a wink?

 

[Unabogie]

That's the thing, I don't think it has to fit witness 8's narrative because long before all this suspicion was cast on her, I had doubts about her. I do believe she was on the phone but I don't trust the way she came into this case and I certainly don't trust Crumps method of deposing her. I am actually surprised that for all need for consistency and honesty and once a person doesn't clear that bar, 100% nothing they say after that is worth hearing, until it's someone that supports your position.

Actually you're confusing me with someone else. I've said here that she has issues if she lied about things that cast her credibility in doubt. But we know that this matches the evidence. She said they argued, then heard the sounds of a scuffle, then the phone cut off.

Just magically, there is the phone and the flashlight, 50 feet from the T. Again, we don't need her to tell us what that means, it's self evident. I'm still waiting for you to explain how the flashlight found its way right by the cell phone, SOUTH of the body in a way that matches the other evidence.

 

[sgtbaker]

But it can't have been a right hook. Again, we have evidence. George claims that he was hit once in the nose, breaking it, knocking him down IMMEDIATELY. But we also know the cut was on the right side of his face, meaning the blow came from his left, meaning that it would knock him NORTH.

He was facing south when he was approached, remember?

And that doesn't explain how the flashlight is kicked 50 feet from there. That's not possible. I doubt you could THROW the thing that far if you tried.

First, in my years of fight training, I have never heard that a hook can't break a nose. There is no guarantee that the cut actually came from the hit and not the other physical aspects of GZ's claim. Again, you are narrowing the only possible story down to what fits your narrative.

 

[sgtbaker]

Actually you're confusing me with someone else. I've said here that she has issues if she lied about things that cast her credibility in doubt. But we know that this matches the evidence. She said they argued, then heard the sounds of a scuffle, then the phone cut off.

Just magically, there is the phone and the flashlight, 50 feet from the T. Again, we don't need her to tell us what that means, it's self evident. I'm still waiting for you to explain how the flashlight found its way right by the cell phone, SOUTH of the body in a way that matches the other evidence.

You haven't given me a chance to answer. I did give alternative explanations and you addressed them. I admit, I am a girl and I throw like a girl but I think you are exaggerating what 50 feet actually is. Fifty feet is a toss. In Jr high school, I was the worst on the team in throwing the shot put and it was 19 yards which is roughly 57 feet.

 

[johnny karate]

Chris Serino disagrees

The investigation did not end with Serino's findings.

Maybe that's more like how it should work.

No, that's how it does work.

If the evidence against Zimmerman is lacking to the point that he should not have been charged, a motion of dismissal would have been filed and granted a long time ago.

It wasn't.

O'Mara also passed up on another opportunity to make this all go way in the cancelled immunity hearing. Should have been a cakewalk since there isn't even enough evidence to justify Zimmerman's arrest.

So apparently, O'Mara wants to go through with a lengthy, expensive, and pointless trial and leave his client's fate in the hands of potentially biased jurors instead of availing himself of the legal procedures in place for the express purpose of dealing with wrongful and unwarranted prosecution...

... for some unknown reason.

 

[Unabogie]

You haven't given me a chance to answer. I did give alternative explanations and you addressed them. I admit, I am a girl and I throw like a girl but I think you are exaggerating what 50 feet actually is. Fifty feet is a toss. In Jr high school, I was the worst on the team in throwing the shot put and it was 19 yards which is roughly 57 feet.

So where in George's story did someone throw the flashlight like a shot put? Go back to the walk through and ask yourself, when he's describing the stumble walk, where the flashlight went that was in his hands, per his own story?

He says he had it in his hands while walking back to his truck. When did he drop it?