Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

GZ did have a flashlight, a working, illuminated one at that, on his way back to his truck. GZ was also on the phone, making noise, with his vehicle headlamps illuminating him from behind for a portion of his West to East path across the top of the T. GZ was also moving, with homes behind him (one of those being W18, who was home/alert at the time) potentially providing, at minimum, a silhouette of his shape and his location, from which TM would have been able to see him.

Are you not capable of seeing how their relative abilities (based on their respective, assumed vantage points) to see each other weren't the same?

He did not have a working, illuminated flashlight, because he said he didn't.

Zimmerman: Where I was at and I was trying to hit my flashlight. I didn’t want to walk back through without light.

So the reason he didn't see the would be murderer is because it was dark and his flashlight didn't work.

Zimmerman: It was dark. I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. As soon as he punched me, I fell backwards, um, into the grass, and then he grabbed, he was whaling on my head, and I st..then I started yelling help.

Nope, nowhere does he shine his working flashlight, according to his story. So you want to have everything both ways.

It was so dark, he was scared to go back.
It was lit by his flashlight, so Trayvon could spot him from 350' away.
It was so dark, he couldn't see his attacker before he hit him.
It was so light, that witnesses could clearly see who was on top.
It was so dark, that everyone else was out with flashlights after the murder.
It was so light, he could tell the victim went for his gun.

Whiplash!!!

 

[phonebook]

Holy ****.

Talk about CTH delusion.

Wow.

What's delusional about it? GZ claims TM circled his car; his comments in the NEN call seem to support this as having happened. You don't apparently hear what could be TM's voice on the NEN call, but others do (including those who appear to be in favor of GZ's guilt), and this "voice" happens right when the words I mentioned were coming out of GZ's mouth. Not only that, but there's a unique sound at 1:26 that could be GZ raising his powered window (which is also something he has mentioned), right as TM was supposedly approaching him. Nothing delusional about it.

 

[Rare Truth]

You don't think that as he struggled to get the large flashlight working, it's likely that it sputtered out some light at least a couple of times? That's my experience with flashlights in that condition, they still flicker somewhat. That might have caught TM's attention.

Wasn't his keychain light ON when it was found? So, TM also could have seen that light once GZ gave up on the larger one, pocketed it, and switched to the keychain one (if that's what happened)



Nothing "CTH" or delusional about it, that's just your cheap tactic to dismiss it without any thought or actually showing why it's implausible. We know Trayvon came close enough to GZ's truck to prompt GZ to roll up the window and sound fearful as he begged for an officer to be there SOONER, how is it delusional to think this may have also put him close enough to the truck to make out the word "officer" etc?

GZ may have even made a point to say those words louder in the hopes it would scare TM off.

"fearful" "begged"

...
So the fearful beggar RUNS after the ******* crazed "suspect" who is up to no good and he perceives as having a weapon (as he 'reached into his waistband) ...

Oh ****, "he ran!"

dun dun dunnn!

 

[Rare Truth]

CS: Okay can I ask, my concern is also this. “Oh, ****, he’s running” and I’m getting out of my car. In an instant [snaps fingers] to make sure I don’t lose sight of this guy. That’s what it sounds like. Are you following him? Cause that’s what it sounds like you’re doing, that’s why he asked you the question. It sounded to the dispatcher likely that you were running, and that’s why he asked you that question. “Are you following him?” And your answer is yes. Okay? But then you get to the other side and you’re concerned…[slapping sounds] about walking past this guy when you’ve already been chasing him, essentially. And he’s telling you to go back to your car and now you wanna pretend…or not pretend, you wanted us to believe that you’re concerned about having a flashlight to move back where you just ran?
CS: You’re looking for him.
DS: You tried to catch up to him, do you see what I’m saying?
GZ: No, I wasn’t. Um…
CS: Okay, it sounds like you’re looking for him.
DS: You brought a flashlight with you.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You wanted to be able to see him.
CS: You wanted to catch him. You wanted to catch the bad guy…
GZ: No…
DS: No, it doesn’t…that’s…[can’t understand]
CS: *********** punk can’t get away. This is outside the interrogation room, okay? And we are in a whole different area right here. Okay, this is, this is where, you know, I mean, this is why I took you out of there, so you could hear this. So I can recall your memory and…let you see, if they say, if you say you walked back to your car, you stood outside your car for a couple minutes, they’re not going to believe anything I’ve got to say.
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: And that’s why I’m saying, is there anything that you need to clarify right now?
GZ: [sigh]

 

[Rare Truth]

GZ did have a flashlight, a working, illuminated one at that, on his way back to his truck.
...

Yowies kapowies. So now GZ has in his hands -- a phone, a tactical flashlight that wouldn't work AND a working keyring flashlight that DID. On.
Altogether!

Gosh, I'm loving this new soup.

 

[Rare Truth]

...

Nope, nowhere does he shine his working flashlight, according to his story. So you want to have everything both ways.

It was so dark, he was scared to go back.
It was lit by his flashlight, so Trayvon could spot him from 350' away.
It was so dark, he couldn't see his attacker before he hit him.
It was so light, that witnesses could clearly see who was on top.
It was so dark, that everyone else was out with flashlights after the murder.
It was so light, he could tell the victim went for his gun.

Whiplash!!!

Again, as watertight as an otter's ass.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Yowies kapowies. So now GZ has in his hands -- a phone, a tactical flashlight that wouldn't work AND a working keyring flashlight that DID. On.
Altogether!

Gosh, I'm loving this new soup.

Are you deliberately going out of your way to not understand completely understandable concepts?

I see this a lot. "Oh how could he be covering GZ's mouth and also slamming his head?" people who, I presume, have functioning brains that, under other circumstances they aren't as emotionally invested in, can fully grasp the idea of different things happening at different times... seem to lose that ability in this case. It's quite odd.

What's hard to envision about this?

*GZ has phone up to his head with one hand, gets out large flashlight, tries to turn it on, it flickers/sputters or doesn't come on at all, he smacks the flashlight against something (dog bag dispenser? his own hand? if it's his hand, easy enough to clamp phone to his head with squeeze of his shoulder as we've all done to free up both hands to work on the flashlight)

*gives up on large flashlight, puts it in pocket, gets out keychain, turns on small keychain light.

 

[phonebook]

Yowies kapowies. So now GZ has in his hands -- a phone, a tactical flashlight that wouldn't work AND a working keyring flashlight that DID. On.
Altogether!

Gosh, I'm loving this new soup.

No, just the keychain/flashlight. The phone was in one of his pockets, as was his non-working flashlight, most likely.

ETA: Perhaps the reason his phone wasn't in the pocket he expected it to be (when TM approached him, and he tried to get his phone out) was because he had put his non-working/tactical flashlight in that pocket, because his phone was against his ear, while talking to the NEN operator (thus making that usually-for-his-phone pocket, free). When the NEN call concluded, he put his phone into another pocket, because the tactical flashlight was in the pocket the phone usually resides in.

 

[Rare Truth]

...

*GZ has phone up to his head with one hand, gets out large flashlight, tries to turn it on, it flickers/sputters or doesn't come on at all, ...

No, just the keychain/flashlight. The phone was in one of his pockets, as was his non-working flashlight, most likely.

lol.

Better get together with your fellow conspirator.

 

[Rare Truth]

ETA: Perhaps the reason his phone wasn't in the pocket he expected it to be (when TM approached him, and he tried to get his phone out) was because he had put his non-working/tactical flashlight in that pocket, because his phone was against his ear, while talking to the NEN operator (thus making that usually-for-his-phone pocket, free). When the NEN call concluded, he put his phone into another pocket, because the tactical flashlight was in the pocket the phone usually resides in.

Holy crap. I'm laughing my ass off. Do you see the pretzels you're making right there?

 

[phonebook]

Holy crap. I'm laughing my ass off. Do you see the pretzels you're making right there?

I'm sorry... I didn't realize it was that complicated of a concept. Perhaps someone else will be willing to word it differently so that you might be able to understand it.

 

[phonebook]

lol.

Better get together with your fellow conspirator.

You realize those two quotes are referencing different moments in time, right?

ETA: I can explain it to you further if you have trouble figuring it out on your own.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

lol.

Better get together with your fellow conspirator.

There's no problem here, we're both attempting to make sense of what happened, neither of us was there.

Did he only get the keychain light out and give up on the large flashlight after he'd already gotten off the phone, or did that happen while he was still on it? Who knows. Could be either/or.

This isn't "conspiratorial" this is all very normal, logical stuff. It's speculation, sure, but it's all based in the evidence and common sense. It's also being presented as speculation.

I see plenty of speculation on the other side about how GZ came into contact with TM, etc...

 

[LashL]

Or could it be symptomatic of the broken nose itself?

Sure, that's possible, insofar as anything is possible, of course.

Although not specific to the nasolabial folds, I have seen "swelling of your nose and surrounding areas" and "bruising around your nose or eyes" listed as symptoms of a broken nose.

Sure, but "swelling of your nose and surrounding areas" and "bruising around your nose or eyes" is not what this particular diagnosis from the medical record says. The reason that I mentioned this particular specific diagnosis as being at least facially supportive of Zimmerman's claim about Martin pressing on his nose and mouth is precisely because (a) the diagnosis is very specific; (b) the diagnosis is not one that is generally associated with the usual or generic "symptoms of a broken nose"; (c) the location of the nasolabial folds; (d) the diagnosis of bilateral bruising and swelling to same indicates injury to both sides of Zimmerman's mouth, which would appear to be at least facially consistent with his claim about Martin's hands pressing over his mouth.

I could be wrong about this, of course, but I just found it interesting because in the many years and thousands of cases in which I've reviewed clinical notes and records of thousands of doctors, I don't think I have ever seen a specific diagnosis of "bilateral bruising and swelling of the nasolabial folds" as "symptomatic of a broken nose". If you have knowledge or evidence to the contrary, I would be pleased to be corrected, of course.

Also, for the record, I haven't followed this case in any detail at all and I do not take a position one way or the other as to the guilt or otherwise of Zimmerman but, as a lawyer, I do take an interest in the way that cases are prosecuted, particularly viz the fairness of the process and the rules of evidence. And I have to say, with respect to the latter, that I listened to the audio of the interview of Witness 8 quite some time back when it was first publicized and I was so embarrassed for Mr. de la Rionda and the way he conducted that interview that I cringed outwardly and cried a little inwardly. More recently, I read his latest motion materials and I fear that his cheese has well and truly slid off his cracker, and that makes me feel very sad for him, indeed.


(ETA: apologies for the delay in responding; it's been crazy busy in real life recently so it took a while to catch up on the rest of the thread since your response to my post.)

 

[KatieG]

Sure, that's possible, insofar as anything is possible, of course.





Sure, but "swelling of your nose and surrounding areas" and "bruising around your nose or eyes" is not what this particular diagnosis from the medical record says. The reason that I mentioned this particular specific diagnosis as being at least facially supportive of Zimmerman's claim about Martin pressing on his nose and mouth is precisely because (a) the diagnosis is very specific; (b) the diagnosis is not one that is generally associated with the usual or generic "symptoms of a broken nose"; (c) the location of the nasolabial folds; (d) the diagnosis of bilateral bruising and swelling to same indicates injury to both sides of Zimmerman's mouth, which would appear to be at least facially consistent with his claim about Martin's hands pressing over his mouth.

I could be wrong about this, of course, but I just found it interesting because in the many years and thousands of cases in which I've reviewed clinical notes and records of thousands of doctors, I don't think I have ever seen a specific diagnosis of "bilateral bruising and swelling of the nasolabial folds" as "symptomatic of a broken nose". If you have knowledge or evidence to the contrary, I would be pleased to be corrected, of course.

Also, for the record, I haven't followed this case in any detail at all and I do not take a position one way or the other as to the guilt or otherwise of Zimmerman but, as a lawyer, I do take an interest in the way that cases are prosecuted, particularly viz the fairness of the process and the rules of evidence. And I have to say, with respect to the latter, that I listened to the audio of the interview of Witness 8 quite some time back when it was first publicized and I was so embarrassed for Mr. de la Rionda and the way he conducted that interview that I cringed outwardly and cried a little inwardly. More recently, I read his latest motion materials and I fear that his cheese has well and truly slid off his cracker, and that makes me feel very sad for him, indeed.


(ETA: apologies for the delay in responding; it's been crazy busy in real life recently so it took a while to catch up on the rest of the thread since your response to my post.)

I don't think lawyers on either side are making a good showing for the themselves.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

George's headlights were on for at most, 15 seconds, as per the manual in his car. And remember, he wasn't running, and was only looking for an address. He wasn't even fast walking.

We covered this, and 15 seconds is not correct.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Do they have to give a reason? Or can they just say no, it may be that is done in camera.

I never know where you have left off reading ...

Anyway - I think unabogie pointed out the most likely answer - no address for videographer, so BDLR said no. I didn't see any rules that allow either side to arbitrarily just say no.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

A person backing up to the west is facing east.

A person facing east who falls to the north or south is by definition not falling backwards.

And if the take one step backwards and 3 steps to the left or right ?

If he was facing east and fell backward and landed in the grass, clearly in addition to going backward, he went left or right.

Unless you ignore witness statements, the confrontation started at the Tee and moved southward. And according to both GZ and witness 8, TM initiated the confrontation.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The trial has yet to occur.

No kidding ? You think that illegal charges of doxing somehow fall under GZ murder trial ?

Didn't think you'd be able to man up to the challenge.

Sigline for a month. I'm willing to bet my predictions hold up. You are not.

What readers need to know.

Live with it.

"What readers need to know" they already do.

That is that you are more interested in **** waving than having a discussion and providing evidence for your outlandish claims.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Holy ****.

Talk about CTH delusion.

Wow.

The wackiness just grows and grows here.

With respect to Joplin, skepticism is just another word for nothing left to lose.

...I guess.

Yowies kapowies. So now GZ has in his hands -- a phone, a tactical flashlight that wouldn't work AND a working keyring flashlight that DID. On.
Altogether!

Gosh, I'm loving this new soup.

I'm sorry, in all those awesome responses I missed your explanation of why an illuminated keychain flashlight would be found 6 feet away from the TEE ?