Proof of Life After Death!!

[Garrette]

Quite frankly, Garrette, I couldn't possibly care less if you don't believe I really did read both sides of the debate. I also really couldn't possibly care less that you have repeatedly called me purposely dishonest.
And I'll pass on that game.

Okay. So you still won't actually discuss anything at all, and the totality of your evidence boils down to I can't be fooled.

And, no, I am not exaggerating in this post. I mean it exactly as stated, and frankly, I'm right, regardless if I am saying it in an unfriendly fashion.

 

[Robin1]

And you'd be incorrect. I have personally heard Randi say when asked about psychic/paranormal phenomenon that he hasn't met everyone in the world so he can't say for certain, but the so far, no soap.

The quote is from one of the myriad YouTube Randi videos; you'll have to trust me.

Yet, when Randi was confronted with trying to figure out how JE knew what he knew (the very impressive hit) at the event Remie went to...his open-minded, fair conclusion came down to....I don't know how JE did it exactly but it MUST be some type of hot reading. I would think if Randi were truly not 100% certain about all psychics and mediums being fakes that a fair conclusion should have been...I believe JE used a hot reading here somehow, someway, but since I can't for the life of me show the mechanism of the hot reading, I therefore cannot say I am certain based on this case that JE did not connect with the dead. Randi could have just as well said JE is not real cause it MUST have been a lucky one in a million guess. Same difference. That's what happens when you go in 100% certain of the conclusion before you've even heard the story. And THAT is a huge disservice to all who then incorrectly think the same way. You're doing it wrong. You're doing it like Randi.

 

[Garrette]

Yet, when Randi was confronted with trying to figure out how JE knew what he knew (the very impressive hit) at the event Remie went to...his open-minded, fair conclusion came down to....I don't know how JE did it exactly but it MUST be some type of hot reading. I would think if Randi were truly not 100% certain about all psychics and mediums being fakes that a fair conclusion should have been...I believe JE used a hot reading here somehow, someway, but since I can't for the life of me show the mechanism of the hot reading, I therefore cannot say I am certain based on this case that JE did not connect with the dead. Randi could have just as well said JE is not real cause it MUST have been a lucky one in a million guess. Same difference. That's what happens when you go in 100% certain of the conclusion before you've even heard the story. And THAT is a huge disservice to all who then think the same way. You're doing it wrong. You're doing it like Randi.

No. As has been pointed out, the "certainty" that bothers you so much is provisional and not really 100%. Changing that provisional certainty requires more than an uncontrolled observation. If Randi had been attempting to speak in a precise, scientific manner, I wager it would be something like this:

The two possible mundane explanations I can think of for this impressive hit are (1) Hot Reading, but in a manner I cannot discern, and (2) coincidence, but since I have no way of actually calculating the odds of not only this hit but all the guesses he has made which impact on the overall odds, I cannot say how likely this is or isn't. That leaves the non-mundane explanation comprising many previously non-demonstrated components, each of which must be true for this explanation to hold (a) Consciousness survives bodily death, (b) That consciousness retains the desire to communicate with those whose bodies still survive, (c) That consciousness possesses the ability to communicate with those whose bodies still survive, (d) John Edward possesses the ability to receive that communication, (e) The times when John Edward was caught blatantly cheating are not indicative of cheating in this instance, (f) This incident, alone among all incidents in which I cannot discern a mundane explanation (e.g., The Berglas Effect) requires a paranormal explanation.

Therefore, I retain my provisional conclusion of the non-existence of the paranormal but simultaneously concede that this particular instance is worth further investigation. Such investigation requires John Edward to submit to controlled testing, which Schwartz's experiments most certainly were not.

You are damning skeptics for using short hand verbiage when they are in short hand situations.

 

[ExMinister]

Yet, when Randi was confronted with trying to figure out how JE knew what he knew (the very impressive hit) at the event Remie went to...his open-minded, fair conclusion came down to....I don't know how JE did it exactly but it MUST be some type of hot reading. I would think if Randi were truly not 100% certain about all psychics and mediums being fakes that a fair conclusion should have been...I believe JE used a hot reading here somehow, someway, but since I can't for the life of me show the mechanism of the hot reading, I therefore cannot say I am certain based on this case that JE did not connect with the dead. Randi could have just as well said JE is not real cause it MUST have been a lucky one in a million guess. Same difference. That's what happens when you go in 100% certain of the conclusion before you've even heard the story. And THAT is a huge disservice to all who then incorrectly think the same way. You're doing it wrong. You're doing it like Randi.

Likely this would not be a case of "I can't for the life of me figure out how he did it." More likely it would be a case of, "There are all sorts of possibilities that come to mind but since I wasn't there, it is even harder to narrow them down with any real degree of certainty after the fact, especially considering he may have just gotten lucky, so I don't know."

Speaking of luck, it is not a cop out to talk about it in this context. Because it isn't one in a million. What WOULD probably be enlightening would be to interview everyone who received a reading from JE at the event Remie attended and calculate how much of what he said overall that night could be considered a hit. Statistically well within the range of chance would be my guess.

ETA: Why would that be my guess, BTW? Because when they are tested in proper controlled settings, they always fall well within the range of chance. Why would this particular event be any different?

 

[Resume]

Yet, when Randi was confronted with trying to figure out how JE knew what he knew (the very impressive hit) at the event Remie went to...his open-minded, fair conclusion came down to....I don't know how JE did it exactly but it MUST be some type of hot reading.

Could you please provide the proper quote and attribution for the highlighted?

Thanks.

 

[Robin1]

Likely this would not be a case of "I can't for the life of me figure out how he did it." More likely it would be a case of, "There are all sorts of possibilities that come to mind but since I wasn't there, it is even harder to narrow them down with any real degree of certainty after the fact, especially considering he may have just gotten lucky, so I don't know."

Speaking of luck, it is not a cop out to talk about it in this context. Because it isn't one in a million. What WOULD probably be enlightening would be to interview everyone who received a reading from JE at the event Remie attended and calculate how much of what he said overall that night could be considered a hit. Statistically well within the range of chance would be my guess.

ETA: Why would that be my guess, BTW? Because when they are tested in proper controlled settings, they always fall well within the range of chance. Why would this particular event be any different?

I'll roll with Randi saying there were many possibilities but I'll also bet a million dollars that JE connecting with the dead, wasn't one of them. I do think one of Randi's possibilities solves my mystery though: It was my husband! In the bedroom! With his cellphone!
Here's how it must have gone down....my husband went to the bedroom to put on his slippers. He saw me getting ready for the JE event. He had an inspiration...he got JE's phone number, called him, told him I would be going to the event and he wanted JE to impress me. Soooooo, my husband tells JE that I just bought a new refrigerator! My hubby then texted JE my picture so he could recognize me and ask me specifically if I just bought a new refrigerator. Hmmmmmm, now how can I explain how JE knew about my brother's Valerie Harper connection? I've got it!! It was my Mom! In the kitchen! With the telephone! She overheard my bro in the kitchen talking to his friend about getting tix to Valerie Harper's show. And , coincidentally of course, my Mom decided to call JE too!! But wait, my Mom doesn't know how to text pictures. So, she must have given JE a physical description of my brother so he would know who to ask specifically if he had a Valerie Harper connection. She probably also told JE that my bro would be with his sister who has an oversized head...a dead giveaway!
Wow, how could I have missed all that ??!!

 

[Garrette]

I'll roll with Randi saying there were many possibilities but I'll also bet a million dollars that JE connecting with the dead, wasn't one of them. I do think one of Randi's possibilities solves my mystery though: It was my husband! In the bedroom! With his cellphone!
Here's how it must have gone down....my husband went to the bedroom to put on his slippers. He saw me getting ready for the JE event. He had an inspiration...he got JE's phone number, called him, told him I would be going to the event and he wanted JE to impress me. Soooooo, my husband tells JE that I just bought a new refrigerator! My hubby then texted JE my picture so he could recognize me and ask me specifically if I just bought a new refrigerator. Hmmmmmm, now how can I explain how JE knew about my brother's Valerie Harper connection? I've got it!! It was my Mom! In the kitchen! With the telephone! She overheard my bro in the kitchen talking to his friend about getting tix to Valerie Harper's show. And , coincidentally of course, my Mom decided to call JE too!! But wait, my Mom doesn't know how to text pictures. So, she must have given JE a physical description of my brother so he would know who to ask specifically if he had a Valerie Harper connection. She probably also told JE that my bro would be with his sister who has an oversized head!
Wow, how could I have missed all that ??!!

Easily, since you are a priori certain it did not happen.

You are complaining that Randi and the rest of us dismiss the possibility of after-death-communication (though we have explained how you misunderstand this), yet you dismiss your own admittedly tongue-in-cheek explanation that does not require a paranormal explanation.

Which of us is dismissing the more plausible explanation?

Us: We dismiss a paranormal explanation that has never been demonstrated under controlled conditions

You: You dismiss a mundane explanation of family members pulling a trick on you although such things happen all the time

You are not only inconsistent in your own descriptions and not only falsely presenting the skeptical case; you are also demonstrating the flaw in your own thinking but not allowing yourself to see it.

 

[ExMinister]

I'll roll with Randi saying there were many possibilities but I'll also bet a million dollars that JE connecting with the dead, wasn't one of them. I do think one of Randi's possibilities solves my mystery though: It was my husband! In the bedroom! With his cellphone!
Here's how it must have gone down....my husband went to the bedroom to put on his slippers. He saw me getting ready for the JE event. He had an inspiration...he got JE's phone number, called him, told him I would be going to the event and he wanted JE to impress me. Soooooo, my husband tells JE that I just bought a new refrigerator! My hubby then texted JE my picture so he could recognize me and ask me specifically if I just bought a new refrigerator. Hmmmmmm, now how can I explain how JE knew about my brother's Valerie Harper connection? I've got it!! It was my Mom! In the kitchen! With the telephone! She overheard my bro in the kitchen talking to his friend about getting tix to Valerie Harper's show. And , coincidentally of course, my Mom decided to call JE too!! But wait, my Mom doesn't know how to text pictures. So, she must have given JE a physical description of my brother so he would know who to ask specifically if he had a Valerie Harper connection. She probably also told JE that my bro would be with his sister who has an oversized head...a dead giveaway!
Wow, how could I have missed all that ??!!

Or maybe he just got lucky.

Anyway, it really would be interesting to have been able to interview everyone else JE read for at either of these two events to see how many hits he really got. If they can't perform better than chance in controlled studies, why should anyone think they can perform better than chance at one of these shows?

 

[Robin1]

Could you please provide the proper quote and attribution for the highlighted?

Thanks.

It was not intended to represent a direct quote from Randi. It was me simply paraphrasing what Remie had said with regard to what Randi concluded... with an added pinch of humor. To drive home the point. Which is the key.

 

[Resume]

It was not intended to represent a direct quote from Randi. It was me simply paraphrasing what Remie had said... with an added pinch of humor. To drive home the point. Which is the key.

The point I take from your post then is that you're willing to dismiss a natural explanation and replace it with an completely unevidenced assertion.

Check.

And I completely understand your frustration at a group of folks who won't accept your pet fringe belief at face value. The only advice I can give is to have less fringy beliefs.

 

[Stray Cat]

I'll roll with Randi saying there were many possibilities but I'll also bet a million dollars that JE connecting with the dead, wasn't one of them.

Why would it be?
Out of the many possibilities, if you were going to include "connecting with the dead" you'd also have to include "unicorns told him", "He wore an elf cloak of invisibility and walked round the room listening to people's conversations", "he has a time machine" and any other silly and unproven notion.

What gives the one you believe in any more credence than any of the others?

 

[Robin1]

Is it me, or hasn't it been an awfully long time since anyone asked Mike a question?

 

[dafydd]

It was not intended to represent a direct quote from Randi. It was me simply paraphrasing what Remie had said... with an added pinch of humor. To drive home the point. Which is the key.

Could you please point out where the humour was?

 

[dafydd]

Is it just me, or hasn't it been an awfully long time since anyone asked Mike a question?

Waste of time.

 

[Robin1]

Could you please point out where the humour was?

I would, but Resume told me if a joke bombs, I should not draw any more attention to it.

 

[Garrette]

I would, but Resume told me if a joke bombs, I should not draw any more attention to it.

Yeah, but he was pulling your leg.

 

[Garrette]

The point I take from your post then is that you're willing to dismiss a natural explanation and replace it with an completely unevidenced assertion.

Check.

--snip--

As has been said, but if she holds true to form she will not discuss it.

 

[Garrette]

It was not intended to represent a direct quote from Randi. It was me simply paraphrasing what Remie had said with regard to what Randi concluded...

That's how I read it except that the paraphrase was intentionally slanted to not really represent the gist. My point in later posts being that even if you paraphrased correctly, you were still interpreting incorrectly.

with an added pinch of humor. To drive home the point. Which is the key.

Nah. You are confusing the quoted post with your more recent post about how your husband and mom called JE to fool you and your brother.

 

[Resume]

Is it me, or hasn't it been an awfully long time since anyone asked Mike a question?

There's a reason for that.

 

[poblob14]

Speaking of cell phones . . .

I tend to misplace my cell phone a lot, because . . . well, I'm like that; I'm usually doing two things at once, and thinking of four more, and I put the phone down, and ten minutes later I need it and it's gone.

So most of the time, when I find it, I remember what I was doing and why I put it there. But let's say there's one time when I don't. I don't remember going to that place, or even into that room. I can't explain, let's say, how it got there.

Should I give equal weight to these two possibilities?

1) I left it there while doing other things, and forgot about it.
2) Robin used telekinesis and moved it, because she's messing with JREF members.

Of course not; every other time, there's been a normal, logical, reasonable explanation, and there has been no other credible evidence of Robin's using TK.

Same thing with Edward cheating; he's done it every other time, so why should we allow any chance that this time, this one time, is the time he's not?