Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[phonebook]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.​

Proof that TM was "attacked" ?

 

[phonebook]

Either way, I don't deny the fight might have moved. It's seems the more plausible scenario.

But again, this is not a narrative that helps Zimmerman. He claims to have been down on his back and rendered helpless as soon as the fight started.

Well maybe GZ doesn't remember everything that happened in exquisite detail immediately after having his nose broken, and being knocked to the ground. Maybe that should be perfectly understandable. I guess we fault him for trying to explain what happened as best as he can remember?

 

[Unabogie]

Except for the time TM returned to circle GZ's car, "now he's coming towards me", "he's coming to check me out" (which I realize many people dismiss as having happened).

Because that description happened far too quickly after the call started. It's physically impossible for George to have spotted him "by the clubhouse" coming from Taffe's house, where he claimed to have been parked, and then have Trayvon move all the way to behind the row houses, double back, circle his car, then run back, at which point George says "****, he's running".

It could not have happened. He made it up.

 

[Unabogie]

Well maybe GZ doesn't remember everything that happened in exquisite detail immediately after having his nose broken, and being knocked to the ground. Maybe that should be perfectly understandable. I guess we fault him for trying to explain what happened as best as he can remember?

So we're back to him being knocked to the ground immediately, after a single punch, and never getting back up? Or are we going to seamlessly switch to them moving on their feet the 50 feet to where the flashlight and cell phone were dropped? Or can we hold both ideas in our minds simultaneously?

 

[Mister Earl]

Hrm. The more this is discussed, the more interesting it gets. Probably why I still lurk after 206 pages.

 

[Mister Earl]

Except for the time TM returned to circle GZ's car, "now he's coming towards me", "he's coming to check me out" (which I realize many people dismiss as having happened).

Do we have any evidence this happened, other than Zimmerman's claim? It seems awfully inconsistent with Martin's actions, given he apparently had the priority of getting away from Zimmerman.

 

[phonebook]

So we're back to him being knocked to the ground immediately, after a single punch, and never getting back up? Or are we going to seamlessly switch to them moving on their feet the 50 feet to where the flashlight and cell phone were dropped? Or can we hold both ideas in our minds simultaneously?

I think it was probably a bit of a combination of the two. The best eyewitness of what happened in those moments had just been punched very hard in the face, the blow which likely broke his nose, which probably upset his equilibrium, and his awareness of where he was, and because of those factors, and the fact that he was likely in a heavily panicked state at that moment, probably isn't too reliable as far as giving the exact details of how those initial moments played out.

 

[Unabogie]

I think it was probably a bit of a combination of the two. The best eyewitness of what happened in those moments had just been punched very hard in the face, the blow which likely broke his nose, which probably upset his equilibrium, and his awareness of where he was, and because of those factors, and the fact that he was likely in a heavily panicked state at that moment, probably isn't too reliable as far as giving the exact details of how those initial moments played out.

And yet he was very consistent with the story he told, all the way up until he went back to the scene of the crime and told a different story. So his clear, consistent details that he was very sure about, up to and including B-movie dialogue, were all the result of the single blow to the nose that happened 50 feet from where the evidence ended up, and he couldn't remember any of that? Even though after the murder, he walked away from the body towards the tree where his keys were found, and still couldn't understand how far he'd moved, and yet still told police it was one punch, down to the ground, never to get up?

But we'll have to remember this very forgiving attitude towards shock, memory, and basic human frailty when the subject of the victim's parents comes up again.

 

[Rare Truth]

The best eyewitness of what happened in those moments had just been punched very hard in the face
...
probably isn't too reliable as far as giving the exact details of how those initial moments played out.

Glad you admitted Zimmerman isn't reliable.

He's also the most likely to manipulate the story to proclaim his innocence.

Seeing he was suspected of murder and all...

 

[phonebook]

Do we have any evidence this happened, other than Zimmerman's claim? It seems awfully inconsistent with Martin's actions, given he apparently had the priority of getting away from Zimmerman.

From the moment GZ spotted TM, and presumably when TM noticed GZ was watching him, TM headed in a direction that was consistent with him heading back to Brandy's house (which is where TM was staying). That doesn't necessarily show TM was trying to "get away" from GZ, it just shows that GZ was following TM as TM made his way back home, which TM's family, and Dee Dee has said was TM's destination.

As far as evidence... we have the NEN call. From 0:57 to around 1:40 of the NEN call, I believe GZ is describing TM coming back to circle his car. Listen to it yourself and see if what GZ is saying seems consistent with someone approaching his vehicle and circling it. By "circling", I'm not taking it to mean like some wild west scene where Indians circle a broken-down wagon, but more of just like a semi-circle, I guess you could. He approaches the vehicle from the front, on one side, goes around the back, then makes a boomerang motion of sorts, and returns in the direction he initially approached from, on the opposite side of the vehicle.

Also, I believe I may hear TM actually speaking to GZ around 1:29 of that portion. It sounds to me like you hear a third voice (not GZ's and not the dispatcher's) in the background, and it's right when GZ says TM was approaching him, so I think it's likely it was TM.

Download this copy of the NEN (non-emergency number) call to listen to what I'm referring to.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/videos/ZIMMERMAN-911-0316.wav

 

[phonebook]

Glad you admitted Zimmerman isn't reliable.

He's also the most likely to manipulate the story to proclaim his innocence.

Seeing he was suspected of murder and all...

If GZ is telling the truth about that punch, and where it occurred, it makes sense that he would have been rattled in that moment, his bearings shot, and wouldn't have clarity of what went on at that point, or for a time after it.

Do you think it would be unusual for a person that takes a hard punch to the face, a blow that breaks that person's nose, and knocks them to the ground, to temporarily lose track of their surroundings and what was going on? Especially if this person is already in a state of fear (supposedly about to call 9-1-1), and would understandably be put into a state of full-blown panic after such a blow?

ETA: And yes, I do feel GZ's recollection of what happened after that point would be compromised (unreliable), especially in regards to fine details.

 

[12AX7]

If GZ is telling the truth about that punch, and where it occurred, it makes sense that he would have been rattled in that moment, his bearings shot, and wouldn't have clarity of what went on at that point, or for a time after it.

Ah. OK.

Do you think it would be unusual for a person that takes a hard punch to the face, a blow that breaks that person's nose, and knocks them to the ground, to temporarily lose track of their surroundings and what was going on? Especially if this person is already in a state of fear (supposedly about to call 9-1-1), and would understandably be put into a state of full-blown panic after such a blow?

Poor George. Confused, scared and in a state of panic. And he shot an unarmed teenager in that state.

ETA: And yes, I do feel GZ's recollection of what happened after that point would be compromised (unreliable), especially in regards to fine details.

Good. See below:

Glad you admitted Zimmerman isn't reliable.

He's also the most likely to manipulate the story to proclaim his innocence.

Seeing he was suspected of murder and all...

 

[phonebook]

Ah. OK.

Poor George. Confused, scared and in a state of panic. And he shot an unarmed teenager in that state.

Good. See below:

Well sure... if GZ wasn't in a panicked state, and was calm, and relaxed, it'd be kinda hard to argue that it was him screaming, or that he fired his weapon in fear for his life, right?

So, do you agree that GZ's recollection, of what happened after him getting punched, not explaining the distances covered isn't necessarily a sign of him being deceitful? It actually makes sense that he wouldn't remember those details, correct?

 

[johnny karate]

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/msyZIEy.png[/qimg]

So now it's eighty feet from the T where TM's body was found? Maybe you're going to argue: "I didn't say that's where TM's body was, did I? I said that's where Zimmerman ended up."

No, that was a place on your map that I marked meant to be commensurate with the location Zimmerman ended up, not an exact measurement of where Zimmerman ended up.

The point is he's behind the row of houses away from any way to find a street sign or address, and heading in the direction he saw Martin running.

Do you believe GZ when he says TM "ran"/fled, south/right, down the T, at approximately the time GZ got out of his vehicle? That was ~2 minutes before the NEN call concluded. GZ states he got to the T around the time he says "He ran", which is 90 seconds before the call ended, and also 90 seconds before the confrontation could have began. Do you believe GZ had already started heading south down the T before the call concluded? How far could GZ have made it south down the T in those 90 seconds? Could he have made it ~50 feet (the number you use) from the T to where you apparently believe the bulk (if not all) of the physical portion of the altercation took place? Where was TM at that time? Did GZ go south down the T without a working flashlight (was very dark in that area), while on the NEN call and pass a hiding TM? Did GZ just not happen to shine his flashlight where TM was hiding? Did GZ not go south down the T until he got off the phone with dispatch? What gave him the courage to do so then? Was it so dispatch wouldn't know what he was doing?

I can't answer any of those questions.

What I can tell you is that Zimmerman ended up in a location other than where he claimed, and in one that didn't allow him to be doing the things he claimed he was doing,

I have to assume that the prosecution is going to have to present some sort of detailed play-by-play of GZ's actions, factoring in the events on the NEN call, to explain what happened in those ~2 1/2 minutes from the time the call concluded, til the time the first 911 call came in.

I disagree.

I think the prosecution will just have to show how the evidence doesn't match up with Zimmerman's claims.

I have no doubt that GZ didn't end up south of the T in an attempt to find a street sign, or a house address. I also don't believe GZ went south down the T on his own volition, unless that was in a panicked attempt to evade TM.

Zimmerman never claimed to have made a panicked attempt to evade Martin.

Sorry, but you can't just manufacture details that don't exist in the body of evidence in order to fit your predetermined conclusion.

If what GZ says is true, that TM punched him in the face, hard enough to break his nose, and hard enough to cause him to lose his balance, I would expect him to have his spatial awareness compromised, and I don't think it's unreasonable for him to have a compromised memory of what happened in the events immediately following that, especially considering the panicked state GZ was likely in at that point.

You're just making things up again.

Zimmerman asserted more than once he was punched and went down with Martin on top of him.

Even if you allow for his later embellishments, it still doesn't explain how a man backing up to the west was attacked from the south and ended up farther south from where he was attacked.

Your only hope is to do what you did above: Make up a scenario out of whole cloth in which Martin is chasing Zimmerman around, which Zimmerman does not claim happened.

The witnesses that L8Elvis mentioned hearing the argument/scuffle originate at the T, and the fact that GZ's illuminated flashlight/keys were found at the T are evidence, beyond GZ's words, that that's where things originated.

TheL8Elvis has so far been unable to provide quotes for the claims of those witnesses.

Perhaps you would like to take up the challenge?

What GZ describes after that, and what the screams indicate, is a truly chaotic situation, one of panic, fear, and desperation, and the fact that things seem a little different than what we might expect is par for the course in such a situation.

What Zimmerman describes is being immobilized and helplessly pinned under Martin from the start of the altercation.

What the evidence indicates is that the fight either moved or did not begin where he claimed. Either way, he's got a problem aligning his story with reality.

 

[johnny karate]

Well maybe GZ doesn't remember everything that happened in exquisite detail immediately after having his nose broken, and being knocked to the ground. Maybe that should be perfectly understandable. I guess we fault him for trying to explain what happened as best as he can remember?

No, we fault him for shooting and killing someone until he is able to adequately justify his actions.

And that you created a straw man out of the bar being set did not go unnoticed. No one is expecting Zimmerman to recall the incident in "exquisite detail".

What is being expected is that his story remain consistent and in accordance with the evidence.

Because if you don't think this whole trial is going to hinge on that, you're fooling yourself.

And has been point out numerous times, if it was really just as simple as Zimmerman recounting his unimpeachable version of events, this whole thing would be over in one short afternoon during an immunity hearing.

But it's not. And Zimmerman's lawyers look to be doing everything they can to avoid having their client tell his story.

 

[mgidm86]

Punch someone for looking at you funny (even if they reach into their pocket) or following you gets you charged with assault most anywhere.

Ok


Right... and if the highlighted was AND instead of OR? Would that change things a little bit?

I'd have to say no. If someone is following you AND looking at you funny, you will be charged with assault if you punch them. Was that a serious question?

 

[johnny karate]

I think it was probably a bit of a combination of the two.

How can it be a combination of Zimmerman being rendered immoblized and helpless on is back and the fight moving across a space of up to 50 feet?

 

[johnny karate]

I'd have to say no. If someone is following you AND looking at you funny, you will be charged with assault if you punch them. Was that a serious question?

Either way, it's still a straw man.

Zimmerman's actions and the context of the incident were not limited to Zimmerman simply looking at Martin funny and following him.

 

[phonebook]

What the evidence indicates is that the fight either moved or did not begin where he claimed. Either way, he's got a problem aligning his story with reality.

And I'm saying that that makes perfect sense considering the situation he claims he was in.

This explains it to some extent:

 

[Dan O.]

Well sure... if GZ wasn't in a panicked state, and was calm, and relaxed, it'd be kinda hard to argue that it was him screaming, or that he fired his weapon in fear for his life, right?

Do you think it is just an oversight that the law talks about the standard of a reasonable person where they intended to say a confused scared and panicked person?