Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

Irrelevant. Don't weasel out of what you just did. You bold faced lied about what someone else said just so you could please yourself shredding a strawman. And you got caught doing it.

And worse yet, you don't even have the grapes to man up to it and apologize.

Tell me, why should I or anyone else even bother debating with you if you're just going to argue what you prefer your opponents are saying, rather than the actual arguments they're using?

Wow, you've been following this thread for at least a few days and you only single out wildcat, what with all the strawmen and other fallacies flying around here ?

 

[KatieG]

https://twitter.com/rzimmermanjr

BOKE [name/brand]‏@artistofideas -50m ago
#RhetoricalExpertComment PROSECUTION's case is MEDIA's (Crump's PR disinformation) SO Corey had to skip grand jury. @SerenaJor @rzimmermanjr

Robert Zimmerman JR‏@rzimmermanjr - 1h ago
KEY: "GZ Got out of his truck in defiance of police orders" = A FABRICATION: Evidence = GZ NEVER told 2 stay in car... Not EVER

He appears genetically unable to keep his mouth shut and his fingers off twitter. He really isn't helping GZ at this point.

 

[Mister Earl]

I don't think he was ever "pursuing"him. I really think think he got out of the car to see which way he went.

After he lost site of him, I really don't know what was going through his head. I think he probably wanted to see if he could see him heading out the back gate, to see if he was leaving the subdivision, so he walked through to RVC to take a look. He waited, didn't see him, and walked back.

I think at that point, TM, who hadn't gone home, confronted him, and then punched him.

I think it would clearly have been been better had GZ stayed in the truck - but I am not focused on moral guilt - I don't see the evidence for legal guilt, FWIW.

Gotcha. Ok. Hrm... I can see your side of the house here. I'll say it's a possibility, but personally I don't think it's likely. And now I understand you're looking at this from a legal standpoint rather than the moral one. I think we're finally on the same page.

 

[Mister Earl]

Wow, you've been following this thread for at least a few days and you only single out wildcat, what with all the strawmen and other fallacies flying around here ?

I just hooked on the most blatant one. Otherwise I'd be at it all day.

 

[Rare Truth]

Nice cherry picking

“What if, in his mind’s eye, which I can’t get into because he has passed, he perceives you as a threat,” Mr. Serino said, drawing no answer from Mr. Zimmerman. “He perceived you as a threat; he has every right to defend himself, especially if you reach into your pocket to grab your cellphone.”

You missed the point of that, which is the set up for a Stand Your Ground defense for Trayvon, that which you stated earlier was irrelevant,..

 

[AlBell]

Even if this turns out to be exactly what happened, do you think that makes it acceptable to shoot him dead? Isn't this a form of entrapment? Keep persuing someone until they confront you about it, get them to hit you, then kill them and claim self defense?

After you try it let us know how it works out for you. Why not just ambush them and flee?

ps. Kewl story, bro.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You missed the point of that, which is the set up for a Stand Your Ground defense for Trayvon, that which you stated earlier was irrelevant,..

And still think it is.

There is no evidence of GZs "imminent use of unlawful force." , except in your imagination.

And as I pointed out earlier, GZ is still entitled to self defense regardless, and the witnesses bear him out.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He appears genetically unable to keep his mouth shut and his fingers off twitter. He really isn't helping GZ at this point.

Really depends on what exactly you mean by helping.

He might be hitting all the right notes with people who donate, for all I know.

Also, there are quite a few old saws to the effect of "All press is good press"

 

[AlBell]

^^^^^^^^^
one line

Yup. I figured saying more of what I think/thought would get at least a yellow card.

I don't know what rationale you use.

 

[AlBell]

I know Martin would be alive.

You at least can be certain GZ wouldn't have killed him that night.

Otherwise, meh.

 

[johnny karate]

I am referring to witness 12 and 13 (flashlight man and his wife) and witness 18. They all claim the confrontation started near the Tee, and then moved southward.

Witness 6 (John) saw the fight move 5-10 feet in the few seconds he watched.

I know you don't like GZs non-explanation of the fight moving, but it is backed up by some witnesses.

You're going to need to provide quotes or at least cites for Witnesses 11, 12, and 18, because I'm not seeing where they made the claims you attribute to them.

However, I think the fight absolutely did move, as in there was a fight in which two people were engaged and on their feet.

The problem this presents for Zimmerman is that he repeatedly asserted he was immediately down on his back with Martin on top of him.

The non-explanation he later offered was in contradiction to those initial assertions.

Furthermore, it makes no sense.

Zimmerman was backing up towards his car - to the west - when he was supposedly approached by Martin from the south. And yet Zimmerman somehow stumbled/ran some 50 feet further south past his alleged assailant.

That anyone buys such a load of crap is mind-boggling.

Sure, but I didn't mention lack of injuries.

You mentioned lack of bodily harm. In light of that, I thought it relevant to mention the injuries, and lack thereof.

You can certainly argue that TM may have felt threatened. I will probably disagree with how threatened I think he felt, based on his actions.

That goes both ways.

You seem to have no problem with Zimmerman moving in and out of a state of fear, but somehow Martin had to be sprinting directly home in a panic or he wasn't afraid at all.

Furthermore, there is no claim regarding Martin's state of fear to rebut. It's all speculation. Perhaps he was just wary or concerned.

Either way, we know he did run away from Zimmerman.

Again, we simply disagree here.
ag·gres·sor
Noun
A person or country that attacks another first.
Synonyms
assailant - attacker - raider - invader - assaulter

Following someone, and subsequently losing sight of them makes it difficult for me to label GZ as the aggressor.

I didn't make the argument that Zimmerman was the aggressor, I made the argument that circumstances cast him in the light of the aggressor.

And a total stranger pursuing someone at night as they flee from him certainly does that.

There is no evidence GZ did anything.

That's ridiculous. Of course there is. Zimmerman sat in his car watching a kid walk home from the store at night, and when that kid was sufficiently creeped out/threatened/bothered he fled the scene. Zimmerman then got out of his car to go after him.

Witness 8, in all her dubiousness, has repeatedly confirmed that TM confronted GZ.

No, she doesn't.

And when did you start believing anything Witness 8 had to say?

There is evidence that supports GZ narrative of getting punched in
the nose.

Other than the fact that he was punched in the nose, no there isn't.

There is no evidence that TM had fear of anything, that GZ ever threatened him, etc. None.

Again, that's nonsense. Even in Zimmerman's sanitized, self-serving version of events, there was plenty about his behavior for Martin to feel reasonably threatened.

It's going to be impossible to demonstrate what exactly TM was defending himself from. I just don't see it.

Well, I can only lead the horse to water...

Maybe. Again, round and round. I think Serino, despite not being a doctor, is in a position as an experienced detective to corroborate that the SPD thought GZ story and injuries were close enough, if only barely. I can't see how that does anything but really hurt the prosecution.

I'll take the opinions of whatever medical professionals the prosecution calls to the stand against the opinion of someone with no medical training any day of the week.

Where is the evidence for other’s imminent use of unlawful force. ?
That's what I don't see. How will the prosecution present evidence that TM felt there was "an imminent use of unlawful force" coming ?

I don't see why they will necessarily have to. The thorough shredding they give to Zimmerman's fanciful tale should probably be enough.

I only brought up in the context of this discussion.

Additionally, even if that justifies TMs use of force - that doesn't lessen GZs allowable use of self defense. If the State proves (somehow) that TM was justified, GZ is still entitled to self defense. And at that point, the evidence supports GZ story. Witness 6, Tracy Martin saying that's not TM screaming, etc.

None of that get's beyond a reasonable doubt of self defense, much less to murder 2 , IMO.

The standard is a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.

If the prosecution is successful in taking Zimmerman's story apart and branding him a self-serving liar, I don't see why a jury would buy it when he claims his fear was reasonable to necessitate deadly force.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Is that really necessary?

Yes, but I trust the point was made by now.

 

[Noztradamus]

Who argued that it was Zimmerman's intent to kill from the start?

Nobody. (At most George was only trying to throw a scare in Martin so he doesn't return to George's nice neighbourhood)

So do explain how Zimmerman caught up to Martin when Martin was running away, had a big head start, and Zimmerman never ran?

"If Martin didn't flee
You must set George free"

 

[Unabogie]

I don't think he was ever "pursuing"him. I really think think he got out of the car to see which way he went.

After he lost site of him, I really don't know what was going through his head. I think he probably wanted to see if he could see him heading out the back gate, to see if he was leaving the subdivision, so he walked through to RVC to take a look. He waited, didn't see him, and walked back.

That's quite an admission there. You believe that George lied to the police about why he got out of the car, and you think that after he said "okay", that he would stop following him, he continued to follow him and went all the way to the next street to see if he could spot him.

And again, when asked about this, he intentionally lied about it. And he never wanted an address.

I agree with you.

 

[johnny karate]

And as I pointed out earlier, GZ is still entitled to self defense regardless, and the witnesses bear him out.

No. No they don't.

If they did, then we'd be having an immunity hearing later next month that would be just a parade of witnesses backing Zimmerman's story, followed by a dismissal of all charges, and the uncorking of champagne back at O'Mara's office.

But since that is not happening, perhaps the witness testimonies aren't quite as demonstrative of Zimmerman's self-defense claim as you seem to think.

 

[Mister Earl]

"If Martin didn't flee
You must set George free"

Too legit
Too legit to acquit

Hehe. Sorry. This thread needed more bobcat.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's quite an admission there. You believe that George lied to the police about why he got out of the car, and you think that after he said "okay", that he would stop following him, he continued to follow him and went all the way to the next street to see if he could spot him.

And again, when asked about this, he intentionally lied about it. And he never wanted an address.

I agree with you.

I don't think he lied to the police. I think looking for a street sign was a convenient excuse to also see where TM went. But I certainly can't prove it. Nor do I find it to be particularly relevant a case of self defense.

Clearly, if he went to RVC - he wasn't following TM - since as far as we know, TM never went to RVC.

 

[Unabogie]

I don't think he lied to the police. I think looking for a street sign was a convenient excuse to also see where TM went. But I certainly can't prove it. Nor do I find it to be particularly relevant a case of self defense.

Clearly, if he went to RVC - he wasn't following TM - since as far as we know, TM never went to RVC.

Really? You think inventing a "convenient excuse" is different from lying? And then you say he wasn't following him because he thought he'd gone one way, went to look for him there, but was wrong about where he was and therefore that's different from "following"?

Sometimes I think you're just doing this for the lulz.

 

[phonebook]

After he lost site of him, I really don't know what was going through his head. I think he probably wanted to see if he could see him heading out the back gate, to see if he was leaving the subdivision, so he walked through to RVC to take a look. He waited, didn't see him, and walked back.

And then you say he wasn't following him because he thought he'd gone one way, went to look for him there, but was wrong about where he was and therefore that's different from "following"?

I'm under the impression this is what TheL8Elvis is assuming. This is what I'm assuming, anyway:

The red line is the path GZ assumes TM is taking towards the back entrance.

The yellow line is GZ's path to RVC.

The blue line represents GZ's line of sight where he'd able to see TM potentially exiting out/near the back entrance.

Once TM goes South, and GZ continues East, he is no longer "following" him (see how their respective paths diverge?). He's merely moving to a different location so the obstacle (the row of houses) is no longer in his way in order to observe the location he wants to see (the back entrance).

ETA: GZ waits there for an undetermined length of time, to see if he can spot this guy, perhaps also waiting for the police officer's call he's supposed to be receiving, then eventually gives up and begins to make his way back to his truck.

 

[Unabogie]

I'm under the impression this is what TheL8Elvis is assuming. This is what I'm assuming, anyway:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/wCCer8Q.jpg[/qimg]

The red line is the path GZ assumes TM is taking towards the back entrance.

The yellow line is GZ's path to RVC.

The blue line represents GZ's line of sight where he'd able to see TM potentially exiting out/near the back entrance.

Once TM goes South, and GZ continues East, he is no longer "following" him (see how their respective paths diverge?). He's merely moving to a different location so the obstacle (the row of houses) is no longer in his way in order to observe the location he wants to see (the back entrance).

ETA: GZ waits there for an undetermined length of time, to see if he can spot this guy, perhaps also waiting for the police officer's call he's supposed to be receiving, then eventually gives up and begins to make his way back to his truck.

Which George denied to the police.