Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[phonebook]

You can be certain, it's confirmed.

Not just in his walk-through comments saying she did either. Another witness account.

Well, considering he didn't actually specify that the bandages were applied by his wife in the walk-through video, I'll remain skeptical. This other witness account I'm not familiar with though.

Are you worried I won't thank you again for you taking the time to look it up? I remember you being upset previously because I was in the middle of working on a long post/reply and hadn't had the chance to see that you had even offered the information I had requested, much less had the chance to say thanks.

 

[Rare Truth]

You didn't address my question. Would it not be suspicious if the PA sent him home with no bandages, but his wife put bandages on before he met with police several hours later?

I doubt the PA used butterfly/knuckle bandages. That would be silly.

Best we can assume is the PA either just lifted the Shellie-applied bandages and placed them back on, or she took them off and Shel reapplied new ones after the PA visit.

Has to be either/or.

 

[12AX7]

One thing you should know about me, pb. When I say something is confirmed, it is.

My history and cred of making accurate, factual statements is for regular readers to asses, but a matter of personal pride is that when people read a factual statement from me, they can take it to the bank. Wish it could be point of pride for others as well, alas...

You'll learn. I'll also provide the link when I'm good and ready.

You can be certain, it's confirmed.

Not just in his walk-through comments saying she did either. Another witness account.

Quoted for truth.

If Rare Truth says it's raining, I grab an umbrella. And we live in different parts of the country.

 

[Rare Truth]

Well, considering he didn't actually specify that the bandages were applied by his wife in the walk-through video, I'll remain skeptical. This other witness account I'm not familiar with though.

Are you worried I won't thank you again for you taking the time to look it up? I remember you being upset previously because I was in the middle of working on a long post/reply and hadn't had the chance to see that you had even offered the information I had requested, much less had the chance to say thanks.

Well, you skipped my posts where I offered the information, then went onto reply to my later posts after that, which directly addressed it, and that first one even had a graphic

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9096156&postcount=6958

so I don't know how you could have missed it

so unless you were scrolling too fast, or simply didn't want to acknowledge it is something only you know.

It did bug me you ignored that information, yes.

Especially after asking so many times for it from others...and after I graciously took the time to produce it in visual form.

Like I said, things like that usually don't bother me, and I'm happy to provide helpful information -- but I think it's an attitude thing that comes across that I pick up loud and clear.

 

[Rare Truth]

Quoted for truth.

If Rare Truth says it's raining, I grab an umbrella. And we live in different parts of the country.

*smiles*

Thank you.

For you, here is the further evidence Shellie applied the bandages the next day.
It's from the former deputy that came with Shellie that night to the police station, Mr. Osterman.

Page 78 of this long-ass discovery dump: http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

 

[Dan O.]

This was discussed earlier; he didn't say that.

You're probably right.

Hey, I just discovered that Audacity has label tracks. I don't have to manually annotate the charts in another program. I can also export the labels as a text file. Here's a sample of what I have so far:

Times appear to be the start and end as decimal seconds since the beginning of the recording.

126.873369	127.128287	*
127.154658	127.254282	***
127.383206	127.459389	he's
127.556082	127.854952	Running
128.257841	128.555247	he's runn-
128.584548	128.622639	in
128.660730	128.720797	which
128.753028	128.962531	way
129.000622	129.103175	is he
129.114896	129.264331	runn-
129.277516	129.356629	in?
130.292796	130.615108	ahh
131.368143	132.020091	down towards the
132.187107	132.711595	the ahh
132.987024	133.549604	other entrance
133.615531	134.189831	to the neighborhood
134.041861	134.043326	door closing
134.435959	135.695902	O-K, which en-trance is that
135.726669	136.557352	that he's heading towards
137.267902	138.278786	the back entrance
138.650909	138.819390	(----)
138.924874	139.008382	(king)
139.301392	139.420061	(inhail)
139.477546	139.586313	(??)
139.620713	139.894400	(punk)
139.901988	140.359313	[wind]
140.882273	141.176643	[wind]
141.619574	141.743375	(**)
141.799750	141.886433	(*)
141.905691	141.977220	(**)
142.060071	142.094753	(k)
142.140761	142.289400	(oo)
142.298601	142.341070	(n)
142.358057	142.456442	(s)
142.549454	142.871335	[wind]
142.871335	143.836408	are you following him?
143.881721	144.195675	[noise]
144.949813	145.208744	ya
145.299370	146.642577	O-k, we don't need you to do that
146.726730	147.542364	[echo?]
147.700959	148.108776	O-K
148.231769	148.866151	[wind+noise]
149.102426	153.653146	[wind+noise]
153.672565	155.012536	Alright sir, what is your name?
156.320139	156.485208	George
157.692476	158.103529	he ran
160.055225	161.184813	alright George, what's your last name
162.029577	162.350005	[clacks]
162.612173	163.223898	Zimmerman
164.198128	165.764663	And George, what's the phone number you are calling from?
165.081731	165.486312	(inaudible)
165.923259	166.590007	[tap-tap-tap]
166.835992	167.505977	4-0-7
168.467260	169.470619	4-3-5
170.383352	171.555017	2-4-0-0
172.137613	172.260605	(click)
172.681369	175.471355	alright George, we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
176.452058	176.766012	yea
177.235325	178.374624	alright, where are you going to meet'm with them at
179.753243	180.167533	um
180.503298	180.931127	if they
181.310216	182.753463	come in through the a
182.964670	183.048611	[tap]
183.165045	183.430408	gate
183.471024	183.814912	[tap-tap]
184.483734	186.663497	tell them to go straight past the club house
187.622051	188.437092	[tap-tap-tap-tap]
188.307119	189.016557	and ahh
190.717043	192.141335	sss-straight past the clubhouse
192.406697	193.227154	and make a left
194.109891	196.165095	and then they go past the mail box es
196.931397	198.252793	they'll see my truck
198.455877	200.597731	O-K, wha, what address are you parked in front of?
198.819509	198.894595	(the)
199.123670	199.270024	(keys)
199.341292	199.607274	(are on my)
199.786716	199.941978	(truck)
201.646044	201.882755	[noise]
201.987111	202.712516	ummm
202.851234	203.561367	I don't know
203.650452	205.592501	it's a cut through so I don't know the adress
206.177916	207.516733	O-K, do you live in the area?
208.427944	209.766762	Yea, yea, I (???)
208.990451	210.543072	Well, what's what's your appartment number?
211.566275	213.615226	It's a home, it's 1-9-5-0
215.010040	217.038628	Oh crap, I don't want to give that out loud
217.275340	218.306178	I don't know where this kid is
218.639610	221.416511	O-K, do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
222.594976	223.348379	Yea, that's fine

 

[phonebook]

For you, here is the further evidence Shellie applied the bandages the next day.
It's from the former deputy that came with Shellie that night to the police station, Mr. Osterman.


[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/z-osterman_zpsfa2a0aec.jpg[/qimg]

Page 78 of this long-ass discovery dump: http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

First of all, thank you

I got into a debate previously in this thread with johnny karate, and he educated me on the fact that the bandages seen on the back of GZ's head, in the walk-through video, were in fact NOT butterfly bandages, but knuckle bandages; he drove that point home to me pretty hard. On a technical level, he's correct, but when precise technicalities aren't necessary (such as Osterman rehashing what he had witnessed), I don't think it's a huge misstatement to use the two terms interchangeably.

Anyway, I believe it's possible, and maybe even likely, that the "knuckle" bandages seen on the back of GZ's head (in the walk-through video) were the same "butterfly" bandages applied by his wife that Osterman refers to. That said, I don't feel it rules out that the doctor may have removed the "butterfly" bandages that Shelly had first placed (the doctor had to remove, at least partially, the old bandages to examine the wounds, after all) and put fresh ones on herself.

 

[Rare Truth]

It was also in that discovery dump Osterman confirmed Z was an abused child.

If I recall (have not confirmed yet) Witness 9 statements (W9 is the one Z allegedly sexually molested for 10 years.) said something to that affect as well. Have to look that up.

But here, it shows a pretty damaged childhood for GZ, according to his best bud, anyway:

Robert Zimmerman's tweets do corroborate W9 statements about the family being racist. Not saying GZ is a racist, but his brother sure is. W9 states Z's mom said she was a racist, "loud and proud."

That's why those tweets matter, if W9 is called to testify.

 

[sgtbaker]

As far as I know that TPM link isn't edited, but the part I linked to shows a 3 second differential between the point where he notices the victim running and the point where I hear the chime of the door opening. In your version, you can hear this at 2:10, as you said. My point was that someone about said it was 7 seconds and that's not accurate. I hear it as 3 seconds from the time he first notices it to the time he's got the door open and is exiting his truck. Remember, we don't even know if he was still driving the truck at this point(still moving). I think it's likely he was (unless you believe the whole circling his truck nonsense) because the NEN seems to start in one place but ends up elsewhere, but either way, it took him just 3 seconds from the time he noticed Trayvon running to the time he was chasing him. And that could include stopping the car, but it does include finding and grabbing the flashlight.

I may have misread that 7 second claim but I thought it was seven seconds between when Zimmerman said TM was running and him shutting the door, which according to the audio, is actually seven seconds. ""**** he's running," is at 2:07 and the car door shuts at 2:14.

To me, this is clear that he wasn't getting out to look for an address but was reacting to the "suspect" running. I don't see how anyone could read that any other way.

In one of the interviews, he says, "I was following him but I stopped..."
I believe it was in the walkthrough that he claimed the dispatcher asked him to keep an eye on him, follow him, or see which way he is running. I don't remember the exact words. The dispatcher made no such request of him but he did ask which way he is running. It is not unreasonable for GZ to not remember the exact wording but recall there being a question as to where TM was heading, the question that motivated him to get out of the car. Now when I combine that with "I was following him but I stopped..." This is me speculating but it makes sense to me, piecing together what he is saying; his motivation for getting out of the car was to follow TM. The dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that." He continues walking towards RVC possibly with the intent to meet the officer on RVC at a definitive address and point the way to the back entrance, the direction he thought Trayvon ran. I have no idea what motivated him to come back toward Twin Trees; we don't hear that playing out because the call ended. I do believe that his reporting of what he sees, his reactions, and conversation are natural and unscripted.
ETA: reporting is in reference to the NEN call.

As for your question, yes, I could be wrong about when he picked up the flashlight. But in this case, that can go either way, right? We can't hear everything that happened and if we don't hear something it could mean it didn't happen but it could also be due to noise gates on cell phones. We can only speculate but it seems most likely to me that he wasn't carrying it while he was driving and grabbed it on his way out of the truck.

I think we can all agree that he took his neighborhood watch thing rather seriously. It would not be all that surprising to hear that he kept his flashlight handy and accessible. I am not arguing that such is the case, I am saying that we simply don't know where his flashlight was. The phone picked up the clicks of the door being opened, rather clearly, I would think the glove box being opened would be picked up as easily.

 

[Unabogie]

I may have misread that 7 second claim but I thought it was seven seconds between when Zimmerman said TM was running and him shutting the door, which according to the audio, is actually seven seconds. ""**** he's running," is at 2:07 and the car door shuts at 2:14.

I was talking about how fast he sees Trayvon running and then decides to follow. I mark that at 3 seconds.

In one of the interviews, he says, "I was following him but I stopped..."
I believe it was in the walkthrough that he claimed the dispatcher asked him to keep an eye on him, follow him, or see which way he is running. I don't remember the exact words. The dispatcher made no such request of him but he did ask which way he is running. It is not unreasonable for GZ to not remember the exact wording but recall there being a question as to where TM was heading, the question that motivated him to get out of the car. Now when I combine that with "I was following him but I stopped..." This is me speculating but it makes sense to me, piecing together what he is saying; his motivation for getting out of the car was to follow TM. The dispatcher says, "We don't need you to do that." He continues walking towards RVC possibly with the intent to meet the officer on RVC at a definitive address and point the way to the back entrance, the direction he thought Trayvon ran. I have no idea what motivated him to come back toward Twin Trees; we don't hear that playing out because the call ended. I do believe that his reporting of what he sees, his reactions, and conversation are natural and unscripted.

Actually, he originally was asked if he would meet the police by the mailboxes, a location that the both the dispatcher and George had agreed on. This is not near the rear exit and would never have taken George near the opposite side street. He even told them to meet him by his truck, something that would be impossible with an address on RVC. But to me, the most damning part of that exchange is that after he agrees to meet at the mailboxes, he changes his mind. He says "actually..." and as we all know, when you say "actually..." it means, hang on, change of plans. He then tells the dispatcher to just call him and he'll give them an as yet unknown location. This wasn't necessary since they all knew where the mailboxes where. This is clearly George deciding to continue the chase.

I think we can all agree that he took his neighborhood watch thing rather seriously. It would not be all that surprising to hear that he kept his flashlight handy and accessible. I am not arguing that such is the case, I am saying that we simply don't know where his flashlight was. The phone picked up the clicks of the door being opened, rather clearly, I would think the glove box being opened would be picked up as easily.

Maybe.

 

[Rare Truth]

First of all, thank you

I got into a debate previously in this thread with johnny karate, and he educated me on the fact that the bandages seen on the back of GZ's head, in the walk-through video, were in fact NOT butterfly bandages, but knuckle bandages; he drove that point home to me pretty hard. On a technical level, he's correct, but when precise technicalities aren't necessary (such as Osterman rehashing what he had witnessed), I don't think it's a huge misstatement to use the two terms interchangeably.

Anyway, I believe it's possible, and maybe even likely, that the "knuckle" bandages seen on the back of GZ's head (in the walk-through video) were the same "butterfly" bandages applied by his wife that Osterman refers to. That said, I don't feel it rules out that the doctor may have removed the "butterfly" bandages that Shelly had first placed (the doctor had to remove, at least partially, the old bandages to examine the wounds, after all) and put fresh ones on herself.

You're welcome.

I can pretty much guarantee you the PA did not apply knuckle/"butterfly" bandages to his head. I know personally a number of medical professionals that laughed when they saw those silly knuckle bandages, and a number of med. professionals here on the web who weighed in as well. We had a few in this thread (triforcharity) and Skeptic Ginger who details her professional background here, a post made exactly a year ago today:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8154821&postcount=3551

Those are not doctor applied bandages. They are Shellie-applied. I'd bet a sig line for a month on it.

He was done at the docs in the afternoon, then not long after went on the walk-through reenactment. My guess is the PA either lifted it and replaced it, or took it off altogether, then SZ put new ones on.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It was also in that discovery dump Osterman confirmed Z was an abused child.

If I recall (have not confirmed yet) Witness 9 statements (W9 is the one Z allegedly sexually molested for 10 years.) said something to that affect as well. Have to look that up.

But here, it shows a pretty damaged childhood for GZ, according to his best bud, anyway:

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/z-osterman2_zps22232c4a.jpg[/qimg]

Robert Zimmerman's tweets do corroborate W9 statements about the family being racist. Not saying GZ is a racist, but his brother sure is. W9 states Z's mom said she was a racist, "loud and proud."

That's why those tweets matter, if W9 is called to testify.

I didn't realize witness 9 had any information on the shooting. Is she on the primary witness list ?

 

[phonebook]

He then tells the dispatcher to just call him and he'll give them an as yet unknown location. This wasn't necessary since they all knew where the mailboxes where.

To keep things honest... he asks the dispatcher if the responding police officer can call him upon arrival, and GZ will let them know where he is, and the dispatcher says "OK. Yeah, that's no problem".

This is clearly George deciding to continue the chase.

Yeah... the "chase" which had ended some ~90 seconds previous. Why couldn't it be that GZ hadn't yet decided if RVC or his truck were better locations for the officer to respond to?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

One thing you should know about me, pb. When I say something is confirmed, it is.

My history and cred of making accurate, factual statements is for regular readers to asses, but a matter of personal pride is that when people read a factual statement from me, they can take it to the bank. Wish it could be point of pride for others as well, alas...

You'll learn. I'll also provide the link when I'm good and ready.

You can be certain, it's confirmed.

Not just in his walk-through comments saying she did either. Another witness account.

Still waiting on this one....

Unaboogs: I'm on the other computer now.

Here's the link to 116 jail house calls: http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Mo...sed/-/1637132/15562482/-/rcswq6z/-/index.html

Can't tell you yet which ones Taaffe is discussed, but it'll be posted at some point. Bank on it.

 

[Rare Truth]

I didn't realize witness 9 had any information on the shooting. Is she on the primary witness list ?

Character witness, but you knew that.

And I said if she is called. That door gets opened, yewbeetcha butt she'll be called.

 

[sgtbaker]

I was talking about how fast he sees Trayvon running and then decides to follow. I mark that at 3 seconds.

I don't dispute you but you were referring to another poster, who I thought meant 7 seconds from the time he saw TM running until the time he was out of the car. That's all.

Actually, he originally was asked if he would meet the police by the mailboxes, a location that the both the dispatcher and George had agreed on. This is not near the rear exit and would never have taken George near the opposite side street. He even told them to meet him by his truck, something that would be impossible with an address on RVC. But to me, the most damning part of that exchange is that after he agrees to meet at the mailboxes, he changes his mind. He says "actually..." and as we all know, when you say "actually..." it means, hang on, change of plans. He then tells the dispatcher to just call him and he'll give them an as yet unknown location. This wasn't necessary since they all knew where the mailboxes where. This is clearly George deciding to continue the chase.

Do you think it is possible that his change of plans "clearly" shows GZ decided to follow TM, instead, is because you are already sure he followed him? We don't really know why he changed his mind because we don't have mind reading skills.

Maybe

Fair enough!

 

[12AX7]

I think we can all agree that he took his neighborhood watch thing rather seriously. It would not be all that surprising to hear that he kept his flashlight handy and accessible. I am not arguing that such is the case, I am saying that we simply don't know where his flashlight was. The phone picked up the clicks of the door being opened, rather clearly, I would think the glove box being opened would be picked up as easily.

CCW'ers love them some flashlights.

 

[Rare Truth]

Still waiting on this one....

What are you waiting for?

Frank Taaffe *was* the subject of some of the conversations. Fact.

You might also recall it was around that time the thread was put on moderated status, and it was not long after I lost interest in posting. I grow weary waiting days in between conversational snips. Course by omitting that part, you lead people to the wrong conclusion, which was your goal, it would appear/

To the point, yes I was right. Taaffe was the subject of some of the calls, so I was right again and you were wrong.

Again.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I understand that that photo causes you some discomfort; it's OK. The sooner you realize why (because it shows that George does not look like he suffered an attack like he describes), you'll begin to understand why your position looks ridiculous to others.

I've already told you it doesn't cause me any discomfort, so at this point, you have simply resorted to lying to try to prove a point.

I can't answer why someone thought something. Are you asking why the EMTs suggested a hospital trip? Probably for liability reasons. My elderly mother has interacted with EMTs several times; she's always advised to go to the hospital. The real question is why didn't George go? I mean, he was near beat-to-death. Again, you and other George supporters have to square this part of the story up; do whatever you can to make it fit his "fear for his life" story. So savage a beating he didn't even get a Band-Aid on the small cuts on his head? No ice pack? No ED visit? No black eyes? Swelling gone down just hours later? Bottom line: George didn't suffer a beating that warranted the use of deadly force to stop. I think a jury will see this as well.

I hilited the strawmen for you. Only you are making those claims.

You believe the EMTs thought GZ needed to go to the hospital for liability reasons, then chose not to take him. That doesn't make sense.What makes sense is they thought he should go to the hospital due to his injuries.

I don't know how you missed the medical report discussing the black eyes, but to deny he had black eyes is just dishonest at this point.

I don't think the word "marginally" here helps George at all. Obviously you feel differently.

You keep saying his injuries are not consistent with his story. You neglected to address the fact that an experienced homicide detective who actually spoke with GZ corroborated that his injuries are in fact consistent with his story, however marginally.

Why not? Can you honestly say that the pic I posted looks like George was hit "25-30" times?

I can't honestly say GZ claimed he was hit 25-30 times. Can you ? Cite ?

Can you honestly say those two small cuts (that didn't require stitches or even an ice pack or Band-Aid) look like "slamming" of his head into concrete? Can you honestly say his face looks like someone who was attacked violently enough to kill the attacker? Honestly?

Yes.

And Trayvon had no right to defent himself, right?

From what ? Please provide evidence TM had to defend himself from anything or anyone.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What are you waiting for?

Frank Taaffe *was* the subject of some of the conversations. Fact.

This:

Can't tell you yet which ones Taaffe is discussed, but it'll be posted at some point. Bank on it.