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Pro-Intelligent Design Op-Ed in NY Times

Elektrix

Critical Thinker
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
295
Nothing new here.

"Things are complicated. Therefore they must have been designed."

He assumes that complexity has to be the result of intelligence but doesn't offer any evidence. Just tries to poke holes in evolution.
 
Ipecac said:
Nothing new here.

"Things are complicated. Therefore they must have been designed."

He assumes that complexity has to be the result of intelligence but doesn't offer any evidence. Just tries to poke holes in evolution.

Yeah. Just curious if anyone has any more specific refutations of the specific things in this editorial. A creationist friend of mine sent this to me and I am sure he's going to want to debate it.

-Elektrix
 
The next claim in the argument for design is that we have no good explanation for the foundation of life that doesn't involve intelligence.

The fourth claim in the design argument is also controversial: in the absence of any convincing non-design explanation, we are justified in thinking that real intelligent design was involved in life.

They both sound like "I don't believe you, so you're wrong."
 
Yaotl said:
They both sound like "I don't believe you, so you're wrong."

Are there any other logical fallacies at play here? I'm not sure, but it sounds like sort of an argument from ignorance (or maybe the inverse of that..... arguing that because we don't know how something could have happened without a designer, it must have happened with a designer). I can't put my finger on it, but it seems like there is some aspect of arguing that the design must be true because there is no other logical explanation for how such complex things came to be.

-Elektrix
 
Elektrix said:
Yeah. Just curious if anyone has any more specific refutations of the specific things in this editorial. A creationist friend of mine sent this to me and I am sure he's going to want to debate it.

Just that I noticed quickly:

Behe's claim that ID is not a religiously-based idea is a flat-out lie; see the infamous "Wedge document" (published by the Discovery institute, where he is a senior fellow) for refutation. (Sample quote: "Discovery Institute's Center... wants to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.")

His four linked claims are simply gibberish.

First : "we can often recognize the effects of design in nature. For example, unintelligent physical forces like plate tectonics and erosion seem quite sufficient to account for the origin of the Rocky Mountains. Yet they are not enough to explain Mount Rushmore." Unfortunately, we can also often mis-recognize the effects of nature as design (and vice versa); see New Hampshire's Old Man of the Mountan for a rebuttal on one side, and the various Leakey artefacts for another.

Second: "the physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology." This is simply wrong, and quoting 18th century clergymen doesn't make them so. Since we can't reliably recognize "design" when we see it, this entire point is little more than a restatement of the first fallacy.

Third: "we have no good explanation for the foundation of life that doesn't involve intelligence." This is wrong at two levels. First, we have several good explanations, but none that have been overwhelmingly proven to the satisfaction of the majority of scientists, which is why albiogenesis is still an active research area. Second, albiogenesis is not evolution; evolution (which in its core claims is simply "descent with modification, driven partially by natural selection") only deals with changes to life once it has begun. So he's erected a straw man and then misrepresented what we do know about the straw man.

Fourth, "in the absence of any convincing non-design explanation, we are justified in thinking that real intelligent design was involved in life." This is simply an argument from ignorance. I could identically say "in the absence of any convincing non-fairy explanation, we are justifying in thinking that fairies were involved in life."

Misrepresentation of current scientific beliefs and argument from ignorance. Classic ID.
 
I think there is an element here of people who know they were told so often in science class that left to themselves things will always tend to become more disorganised (and indeed in day to day experience we observe that this is the case), when suddenly they're told to believe that the most extremely ordered structures we know about came about by chance, there's a "huh?" factor.

Maybe to ancient Babylonians were on to something after all....

Rolfe.
 
For my mind he's totally shot himself in the foot by admitting that evolution can and has occurred. If you admit that, then you must concede that it could have occured all the way from protobacteria, and then there's little room for ID. All that's left for the designer is abiogenesis, and almost all of your ID arguments are rendered useless, because protobacteria are, by definition, not very complex.
 
Elektrix said:
Are there any other logical fallacies at play here? I'm not sure, but it sounds like sort of an argument from ignorance

I call it "argument from personal incredulity", but I don't know if it has a better name...

Basically, "I can't believe/understand this, so it must be wrong."
 
The first claim is uncontroversial: we can often recognize the effects of design in nature. For example, unintelligent physical forces like plate tectonics and erosion seem quite sufficient to account for the origin of the Rocky Mountains. Yet they are not enough to explain Mount Rushmore.

Of course, we know who is responsible for Mount Rushmore, but even someone who had never heard of the monument could recognize it as designed. Which leads to the second claim of the intelligent design argument: the physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology. This is uncontroversial, too.
What a curious use of the word "uncontroversial," and what a deliberate abuse of the word "design." If one uses the word "design" merely to imply an "arrangement," something that could come into being without intelligence, then the first two claims might be "uncontroversial." We can see and recognize that things are arranged in nature. Snowflakes and crystals are clearly symmetrically arranged, planets tend to be smooth and spherical (and their ring systems display obvious patterns), some volcanoes produce symmetrical cones, and wind can blow sand into pleasant wave-shaped patterns. These are hardly haphazard or confused structures.

But if one uses the word "design" to mean "a planned scheme," then the first two claims are far from "uncontroversial."

A typical dictionary or thesaurus lists both meanings for "design": an arrangement or pattern without the connotation of a designer, and a planned scheme or composition deliberately created by a designer. People can agree with Behe using the former definition, but Behe doesn't explain that he is really using the latter.
The next claim in the argument for design is that we have no good explanation for the foundation of life that doesn't involve intelligence. Here is where thoughtful people part company. Darwinists assert that their theory can explain the appearance of design in life as the result of random mutation and natural selection acting over immense stretches of time. Some scientists, however, think the Darwinists' confidence is unjustified. They note that although natural selection can explain some aspects of biology, there are no research studies indicating that Darwinian processes can make molecular machines of the complexity we find in the cell.
This is disingenuousness, pure and simple. Eugenie Scott spoke about this at length at TAM2. Behe wrongly and dishonestly equates evolution with Darwinism. The fact that scientists disagree with Darwin does not, by itself, mean that they endorse Behe's thesis. The business about "no research studies" is either wrong, or my university Biology professor was lying to me.
The fourth claim in the design argument is also controversial: in the absence of any convincing non-design explanation, we are justified in thinking that real intelligent design was involved in life. To evaluate this claim, it's important to keep in mind that it is the profound appearance of design in life that everyone is laboring to explain, not the appearance of natural selection or the appearance of self-organization.

The strong appearance of design allows a disarmingly simple argument: if it looks, walks and quacks like a duck, then, absent compelling evidence to the contrary, we have warrant to conclude it's a duck. Design should not be overlooked simply because it's so obvious.
The illogic of this "simple argument" is stunning. First, it assumes what it is trying to prove, saying that we should take for granted that there has been intelligent design, unless there is "convincing" or "compelling" evidence to the contrary. Second, it is fundamentally unscientific. It assumes that we should throw up our hands and conclude that there is no natural explanation, rather than learn whether such an explanation may exist. In other words, it is a waste of time to try to find any "convincing" or "compelling" evidence. Third, it sets up a false dichotomy, namely, that if Darwin was wrong in any respect, then intelligent design must be right. Fourth, the whole argument is based upon ignorance. Intelligent design is not based upon affirmative evidence of design or the existence of any designer, but upon a lack of evidence that there was no intelligent design. When someone argues that he is right because of the lack of evidence supporting his position, it is a pretty safe bet that he is dead wrong.

Behe says that intelligent design is a "rival theory" to "Darwinism" (which he dishonestly suggests is the same as evolution). What nonsense. Intelligent design is not a "theory" in the same sense as evolution. Intelligent design is not subject to test, and makes no predictions. (Based upon principles of evolution, scientists--including Darwin himself--have made predictions and have subjected the principles to test.) Moreover, the "rivalry" is only in the religious and political arenas not in the scientific arena. In science, the "rivalry" is non-existent. Peer reviewed scientific journals do not recognize any such rivalry, and the vast majority of practicing scientists do not recognize any such rivalry.
 
As others on this board have pointed out in great biological detail, calling such a Designer "intelligent" is rather absurd. If the human body was the best that He could do, then He is rather amateurish.
 
Ladewig said:
As others on this board have pointed out in great biological detail, calling such a Designer "intelligent" is rather absurd. If the human body was the best that He could do, then He is rather amateurish.

Indeed, the appendix alone would seem to argue for either a very bad designer or the rediculousness of intelligent design...
 
As of this writing, the Times has not published any letters to the editor pertaining to Behe's column. There is a letter printed today in response to the stories and columns discussing reluctance by some teachers to discuss evolution. The author, a former psychology professor, argues that the effects could spread to other fields of science. He adds:
But an even worse casualty would be the conceptual understanding of the scientific method, a procedure whose goal is to completely explain all of a discipline's phenomena. Creationism requires a creator and intelligent design requires an intelligent designer, both of whom intervene at any time to make an otherwise complete explanation moot.
For those who wish to do so, there may be an opportunity to write a brief letter to the Times taking some pokes at Behe's arguments. List your credentials if you have them (the Times gives weight to credentials). I doubt my own credentials are sufficiently noteworthy.

My post above is way too big to be the basis for a letter to the editor. You might use an idea or two, or try a different approach. For example, you might ridicule Behe's notion that design is "obvious." That same argument was used to "prove" (for example) that the Earth is flat and that the Sun orbits the Earth.
 
My questions for ID proponents would be:

Without quoting from the Bible (since Behe says " the theory of intelligent design is not a religiously based idea"):
1. What does the present design tell you about the designer?
2. Point to some other examples of this designer's work.
3. What processes did the designer employ in the creation of his designs?
4. Did the designer simply set things in motion and adandon (or step back to observe) the design, or is the designer actively continuing to design? What evidence supports your answer over the other possibility.
5. Where is the designer now?
6. Is the proposed designer natural or supernatural?
 
Everyone should write...just keep in mind that unless you are a major, known scientist (like Dawins) ..the Times is unlikely to publish anything longer than 150 words (and even that's a stretch). Pick one hole and call the bluff...don't try a sweeping rebuttal that answers everyting...they won't even look at it...
 

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