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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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It is exactly the same as blaming a rape victim. You are trying to place some onus on GZ for the conduct of Trayvon. GZ was keeping an eye on his community, had a right to be where he was, and was under no responsibility to run home, return to his car, or any other such nonsense. No one had the right, not even an unarmed child, to assault GZ.

See we can both frame it that way, and someone might say it was 50/50 but for the fact that the scenario where GZ was attacked is based on something. GZ says it happened, and his wounds, the screams, Witnesses 11 and 6 etc at least tend to support his version.

Whereas what you want to believe? That GZ caught and confronted TM? It's based on nothing in the evidence. Just emotion and assumption.

Sure - you can spin it in circles all you want - but that won't change the facts and evidence such as they are. Trayvon was unarmed and was walking. Zimmerman was armed and felt empowered to stalk Trayvon for being unarmed and walking. A confrontation resulted that would not have resulted if Zimmerman had picked up the phone and delegated his concerns to trained law enforcement officers who understand the practical application of probable cause and the absolute right of free citizens to resist interrogative efforts by officers.

A civilian or a cop can approach anyone ask them questions. But only a cop understands that he is not, without probable cause, entitled to cooperation. That is what the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled. A cop can ask anyone anything. But one does not have to respond unless one is detained by the officer, and the officer can only detain you with probable cause. An ignorant, self-aggrandized neighborhood watch volunteer carrying a deadly weapon may or may not understand their lack of standing in attempting the approach. And that lack of understanding is what led to escalation, violence and tragedy.

It's really that simple. A person is justified in committing a battery when necessary to defend against another’s imminent use of unlawful force. Pitts v. State, 989 So. 2d 27, 30 (Fla. 2d DCA 2008). Here, if the prosecution has no evidence to dispute that Trayvon threw the first blow, they can certainly establish that Trayvon's actions of punching Zimmerman and wrestling him to the ground were justified and did not constitute a forcible felony or unlawful force. Zimmerman will be convicted of Murder 2, no doubt about it.
 
A confrontation resulted that would not have resulted if Zimmerman had picked up the phone and delegated his concerns to trained law enforcement officers

That's precisely what Zimmerman did. He called law enforcement and was awaiting their arrival. His choice to wait outside his vehicle for the responding officer to call him was entirely legal and entirely moral. Attempting to position himself in such a way as to be able to maintain, or reacquire a visual on Trayvon's position wasn't illegal either. Remember that at one point, Zimmerman expresses impatience with the dispatcher of wanting an officer faster. He wanted the police to handle this. He wanted them to be there, as fast as possible.

An ignorant, self-aggrandized neighborhood watch volunteer carrying a deadly weapon may or may not understand their lack of standing in attempting the approach. And that lack of understanding is what led to escalation, violence and tragedy.

Evidence George attempted to interrogate Trayvon? Evidence George caught up to Trayvon? Evidence George approached Trayvon? Evidence that George's actions or words are what led to "escalation, violence, and tragedy" ? Other than the fact that getting out of his car did make him a more vulnerable and tempting target...

Again, you may not think much of what George Zimmerman claims, but at least in choosing to (largely) accept his version of events, what I think happened is therefore based on something. What is this version you're peddling based on? Just simply what you'd prefer to envision happened because it would paint Trayvon in a better light?
 
DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR SANCTIONS AGAINST STATE ATTORNEY'S OFFICE FOR DISCOVERY VIOLATIONS

This motion concerns the state's failure to disclose W8's perjured testimony as it came to their attention as required by Brady.

Witness 8' s deposition was taken on March 13, 2013. During that deposition, Witness 8 testified under oath that she had advised Mr. de la Rionda in the above referenced August interview that she was an adult, and had not, in fact, gone to the hospital; that she had lied about going to the hospital when she advised Mr. Crump of that statement, and that she had also lied to Mr. de la Rionda when she told him in the April2, 2012 sworn interview that she had gone to the hospital. The reason Witness 8 gave for lying to Mr. Crump was that Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, was present during the interview. Similarly, Witness 8 stated that she told Mr. de la Rionda the same lie because during Mr. de la Rionda's sworn interview of Witness 8, for unknown reasons, Ms. Sybrina Fulton was sitting next to her, and Witness 8 similarly felt the need to deceive as to the reason for not going to the wake or funeral.

That defense counsel made initial inquiry in this regard by email to the State, attached hereto as Exhibit "E", requesting information regarding those hospital records in orderto save time and resources. No response was forthcoming.

After receiving no response to the request in the email, defense counsel followed up with a letter, attached hereto as Exhibit "F", requesting that information again. Similarly, no response was forthcoming.

In addition, undersigned counsel avers that several conversations occurred between undersigned counsel and Mr. de la Rionda or Mr. Guy on behalf of the State Attorney's
Office, where the issue of hospital records documenting Witness 8 's hospitalization were discussed and requested. No response was forthcoming.

Since these letters and conversations proved to be of no avail, on or about February 21, 2013 undersigned counsel filed a motion for issuance of a Subpoena Duces Tecum to Witness 8 to accomplish receipt of these medical records. To the motion, no response was forthcoming.

This is significant because Mr. de la Rionda knew this information well before even the first email referenced above as Exhibit "E" was sent, and before the second correspondence listed above as Exhibit "F", yet continually failed to inform undersigned counsel. It was in that context that the State failed to inform undersigned counsel of this significant and exculpatory information until such time as the evening before the Subpoena Duces Tecum motion was to be heard by this Court.

It was not until approximately 7:00p.m. on March 4th, the evening before the hearing that the undersigned counsel was contacted by Mr. Guy who advised that, in fact,
Witness 8 was not truthful about her hospital stay, and had lied to Mr. Crump and Sybrina Fulton. It is also now known that Witness 8lied to Mr. de la Rionda during his April2, 201 interview of her, which, for unknown reasons, occurred under the unique circumstances of being conducted in the presence of other state witnesses such as Sybrina Fulton. Based upon this evidence, it is apparent that the State Attorney's Office was fully aware that Witness 8 lied about the relevant and significant parts of her testimony, and the State knew this no later than August 2, 2012.4 In addition, the decision to conduct the interview in the living room of Ms. Fulton's home, and to allow any other state witness, particularly the decedent's mother, to be sitting next to the witness during the interview, when Mr. De la Rionda had to know the potential influence that could occur, places the legitimacy and veracity of the entire statement at issue.
 
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That's precisely what Zimmerman did. He called law enforcement and was awaiting their arrival. His choice to wait outside his vehicle for the responding officer to call him was entirely legal and entirely moral.
There's a difference between "waiting outside the vehicle" and "continuing the chase".

Attempting to position himself in such a way as to be able to maintain, or reacquire a visual on Trayvon's position wasn't illegal either.
No, but it was unnecessary, and his persuit resulted in the death of someone doing nothing illegal either. Right/Wrong doesn't map perfectly to Legal/Illegal.

Remember that at one point, Zimmerman expresses impatience with the dispatcher of wanting an officer faster.
Tough cookies for him. Irrelevant.

He wanted the police to handle this. He wanted them to be there, as fast as possible.
My opinion, here, but I don't think he ever intended the police to be the ones doing the catching. He wanted them to act as his backup. Zimmerman's actions make me think this, given that once he lost contact he went out to reinitiate it. The kid was on foot, the cops had a description, and a direction of travel was known. He more than likely would not have gotten away. Even if he did... so what? The problem, per Zimmerman, was there was a "suspicious" kid in his area. The kid was leaving his area. Problem would've been self-solving. But that wasn't good enough for him.

Evidence George attempted to interrogate Trayvon? Evidence George caught up to Trayvon? Evidence George approached Trayvon? Evidence that George's actions or words are what led to "escalation, violence, and tragedy" ? Other than the fact that getting out of his car did make him a more vulnerable and tempting target...
Evidence Zimmerman was ever a target to begin with? Evidence Trayvon was laying some diabolical zimmerman-trap and not just walking through the area?

And evidence that "George's actions or words are what led to the 'escalation, violence, and tradgedy'?" Hello! Reality check, here. He got out of his car and went after him. He wasn't looking for an address. He wasn't looking to set up a lawn chair and get a tan. He wasn't stretching his legs. He took the one action that gave him the best odds of finding Trayvon.

Again, you may not think much of what George Zimmerman claims, but at least in choosing to (largely) accept his version of events, what I think happened is therefore based on something.
Sure. I'm pretty sure his version of events is largely to cover his own arse.

What is this version you're peddling based on? Just simply what you'd prefer to envision happened because it would paint Trayvon in a better light?
What did Trayvon do that put him in any bad light? He was walking through an area, same right you or I have. Everything past that is largely heresay and speculation. We have minor wounds on zimmerman, but only zimmerman's word on it that Trayvon initiated it. Even if Trayvon DID initiate it, there was no call to that level of escalation of force. The chain of ifs and maybes required to make zimmerman even slightly plausibly innocent in all of this is borderline absurd.

Sorry, chief, but this still looks like murder to me.
 
Sure - you can spin it in circles all you want - but that won't change the facts and evidence such as they are. Trayvon was unarmed and was walking. Zimmerman was armed and felt empowered to stalk Trayvon for being unarmed and walking. A confrontation resulted that would not have resulted if Zimmerman had picked up the phone and delegated his concerns to trained law enforcement officers who understand the practical application of probable cause and the absolute right of free citizens to resist interrogative efforts by officers.

A civilian or a cop can approach anyone ask them questions. But only a cop understands that he is not, without probable cause, entitled to cooperation. That is what the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled. A cop can ask anyone anything. But one does not have to respond unless one is detained by the officer, and the officer can only detain you with probable cause. An ignorant, self-aggrandized neighborhood watch volunteer carrying a deadly weapon may or may not understand their lack of standing in attempting the approach. And that lack of understanding is what led to escalation, violence and tragedy.

It's really that simple. A person is justified in committing a battery when necessary to defend against another’s imminent use of unlawful force. Pitts v. State, 989 So. 2d 27, 30 (Fla. 2d DCA 2008). Here, if the prosecution has no evidence to dispute that Trayvon threw the first blow, they can certainly establish that Trayvon's actions of punching Zimmerman and wrestling him to the ground were justified and did not constitute a forcible felony or unlawful force. Zimmerman will be convicted of Murder 2, no doubt about it.


Another great post, thanks.

There's a difference between "waiting outside the vehicle" and "continuing the chase".


No, but it was unnecessary, and his persuit resulted in the death of someone doing nothing illegal either. Right/Wrong doesn't map perfectly to Legal/Illegal.


Tough cookies for him. Irrelevant.


My opinion, here, but I don't think he ever intended the police to be the ones doing the catching. He wanted them to act as his backup. Zimmerman's actions make me think this, given that once he lost contact he went out to reinitiate it. The kid was on foot, the cops had a description, and a direction of travel was known. He more than likely would not have gotten away. Even if he did... so what? The problem, per Zimmerman, was there was a "suspicious" kid in his area. The kid was leaving his area. Problem would've been self-solving. But that wasn't good enough for him.


Evidence Zimmerman was ever a target to begin with? Evidence Trayvon was laying some diabolical zimmerman-trap and not just walking through the area?

And evidence that "George's actions or words are what led to the 'escalation, violence, and tradgedy'?" Hello! Reality check, here. He got out of his car and went after him. He wasn't looking for an address. He wasn't looking to set up a lawn chair and get a tan. He wasn't stretching his legs. He took the one action that gave him the best odds of finding Trayvon.


Sure. I'm pretty sure his version of events is largely to cover his own arse.


What did Trayvon do that put him in any bad light? He was walking through an area, same right you or I have. Everything past that is largely heresay and speculation. We have minor wounds on zimmerman, but only zimmerman's word on it that Trayvon initiated it. Even if Trayvon DID initiate it, there was no call to that level of escalation of force. The chain of ifs and maybes required to make zimmerman even slightly plausibly innocent in all of this is borderline absurd.

Sorry, chief, but this still looks like murder to me.


This. ^^^^
 
So that's it? They waited all this time to get Witness 8 under oath and all they got was the hospital issue? Which isn't even material to the case?

Wow, I thought DeeDee was the prosecution's worst nightmare?

I guess she did pretty good.
 
So that's it? They waited all this time to get Witness 8 under oath and all they got was the hospital issue? Which isn't even material to the case?

Wow, I thought DeeDee was the prosecution's worst nightmare?

I guess she did pretty good.

You should take a step back and read what you are writing.

Anything GZ does is a lie, a huge deal. He is "flouting" justice.
But when the state prosecutors office is clearly covering up lies and breaking the rules it's *shrug*, no big deal.

Even if you think GZ is guilty, you should be offended and upset at what the state did. And I'm not sure why you think this is "all" they have. You didn't even know they had this until they told you.
 
So that's it? They waited all this time to get Witness 8 under oath and all they got was the hospital issue? Which isn't even material to the case?

Wow, I thought DeeDee was the prosecution's worst nightmare?

I guess she did pretty good.

What? The issue is with the state's handling of exculpatory evidence. This has nothing to do with the content of her testimony and how it impacts the immediate case. That's a seperate issue. "All they got" is the state failing to disclose perjured testimony that it was unquestionably aware of and had already provided to Zimmerman.

I mean, in a critical thinking forum...
 
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You should take a step back and read what you are writing.

Anything GZ does is a lie, a huge deal. He is "flouting" justice.
But when the state prosecutors office is clearly covering up lies and breaking the rules it's *shrug*, no big deal.

Even if you think GZ is guilty, you should be offended and upset at what the state did. And I'm not sure why you think this is "all" they have. You didn't even know they had this until they told you.

Ha, I should be offended? I am not willing to take the defense's word about how things played out, considering their history of trying the case in the press. But at the end of the day, this isn't even a material issue. It's just a general "she lied here, so she's lying everywhere". And that's a standard you CLEARLY reject when it comes to George. If they want to hang George's next 25 years on whether or not DeeDee lied about why she didn't want to go to the funeral, then best of luck to them, and make sure you order that orange jump suit in "Xtra Large".

Regarding what they have, they deposed her and got what they got, and yet they are filing a motion to re-litigate, yet again, the issue of Mr. Crump, who isn't even a party to this case. You'd think if they'd discovered anything more damning that the state had withheld, or if the witness was found to be a fraud, they'd be moving to have the court step in.

But nope, it's back to the same old stuff.

Speaking of offensive, what did you think of Robert Zimmerman donning his white sheet last night?
 
Had to run out for an appointment - so let me pick up where we left off.

So you really have no response to this - you can't reconcile how your argument that GZ was on his back when the shot was fired and how that does not coincide with the angle of the shot. Don't feel bad, neither does the defense team.

If you provide evidence other then your opinion on what is possible and not possible, I'll consider it. IOW, when you say
CherokeeNative said:
forensic evidence will establish ... Forensic experts will prove
That is not an argument. It is an assertion with no evidence.

Yes, there is clear evidence of stalking. Stalking is defined as a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose. "Course of conduct" means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Stalking occurs when an individual engages in a course of conduct that's designed to cause a substantial amount of emotional distress in another. Although typically misdemeanors, stalking charges can quickly become serious felonies when the repeated conduct/harassment is accompanied by a threat of harm that places the victim in fear of death or bodily injury.

If GZ was stalking, why didn't they charge him with it ?
Why don't you link to the proper florida statute regarding stalking ?
I see nothing other than your opinion that GZ was "stalking" TM. Not evidence.

It is exactly the same as blaming a rape victim. You are trying to place some onus on Trayvon for the conduct of GZ. Trayvon was minding his own business, had a right to be where he was, and was under no responsibility to run home, call police, or any other such nonsence. No one had the right, not even a police officer to question Trayvon.

What a marvelous set of straw men you destroyed. I especially like the part about how even the police can't question TM.

Here is what I said:
thel8elvis said:
It's absolutely not the same tactic as blaming a rape victim. You claimed TM was a littel scared child trying with all his might to get away. In that case, he should have called the cops, had witness 8 call the cops, and run the hell home or to a well lit area instead of loitering in the dog walk.

You made an appeal to emotion about what a scared little child TM was. His actions do not bear out your assertion he was scared.

Some people can put their fingers in their ears and sing, "lalalalala" all day long but that will not change the facts and evidence lean towards an affirmative finding that GZ was the one who was using the authoritive voice and was the aggressor in this case.

Because ... you say so ? What are these facts and evidence. ? I saw nothing but a bare assertion.


George appointed himself as the Captain of the Norwest Neighborhood Watch Program and attended an orientation meeting and took extraordinary measures to go from home to home handing out business cards and asking neighbors to report "suspicious activities" to him and LE. According to neighbors within the community, George would regularly "patrol" the neighborhood while walking his dog, or by vehicle with its headlights turned off. Some neighbors purposely changed their regular outside activities simply to avoid George's patrols. George was unhindered in his confrontations with those he believed did not belong within the community.

George also had a history of interjecting himself into situations where he believed a crime had been committed. At one time, he chased down an individual who George believe had stolen an item. On another occasion, George chased down another vehicle because the driver had spit on his car.

I'm not sure why you wasted your time writing these anecdotes. What legal relevance does it have to do with GZ right self-defense ? None as far as I can see.

In addition, we have the testimony of DeeDee who substantiates that Trayvon was aware that a "creepy man" in a vehicle was following him. The NEN call proves that when Trayvon tried to get away from George by running down between the townhomes at the "T," George jumped out of his truck, exclaiming the excited utterance, "Oh ****, he's running" and wind noise and background noises give the distinct impression that George is running after Trayvon. At some point, George states, "these ********, they always get away" and "*********** punks." GZ admits to the NEN Dispatch that he is following Trayvon.

Although Zimmerman claims that he had withdrawn from searching for Trayvon, we can only assume that Trayvon had no way of knowing that. There is also evidence to support that this is not truthful - DeeDee mentions that Trayvon stated that Zimmerman was now following him again and that he said he could see him approaching.

Oh yes, the ever truthful witness 8. :rolleyes:

It is not a far off stretch that a reasonably minded jury will surmize that it was GZ who was using the authoritive voice and acting as the aggressor.

All that above was supposed to prove GZ was using an authoritative voice ? None of what you listed above is evidence that GZ used an "authoritative voice" or was the aggressor.

Yeah, I have an argument. An extraordinary, untrained civilian — someone who fancies themselves to have legal authority that they do not in fact have,

Evidence required.

someone armed with a concealed firearm,

Legally.

someone that values real estate more than life

Evidence required.

— seems to believe he can proceed to escalate that moment until violence ensues, at which point, being the only one carrying a concealed and deadly weapon, he can take a human life that should never have been at risk in the first place.

That was an argument ? It seems like a series of statements on your opinion of GZ, with little basis in fact.

Regardless of who threw the first punch,

Why regardless ? Who do you think threw the first punch, and why ?

Zimmerman provoked the confrontation by, while armed with a gun, recklessly hunting down an innocent teen who was a guest in the neighborhood.

There is no evidence GZ provoked the confrontation, or hunted anyone down.

Zimmerman could have easily avoided any confrontation with Trayvon. Zimmerman himself admits that the kid ran away from him when he first saw Zimmerman, trying to escape. Zimmerman did not have to go for a kill shot.

What do they teach in CCW classes about shooting ?

If TM wanted to escape, he would have been home, not loitering by the dog walk.

Most importantly, if Zimmerman had not pursued Trayvon, and if Zimmerman had not brought a gun, thereby inserting the possibility of deadly force into the equation where previously there had been none, then Trayvon would be alive today, regardless of who shoved who first:
“A defendant may, as a reasonable man, have believed that he was in danger of losing his life, or of incurring great bodily harm, and yet the killing may not, under some circumstances, be justifiable or excusable.  One instance is where he has brought about the necessity without being reasonably free from fault.  Again, the circumstances of a case may at least make it a question for the jury whether a killing was not in pursuance of a previously formed design to kill, instead of having been the result of a mere purpose of self-defense, although at the time of the altercation the first overt act may have come from the person slain.”  Ballard v. State, 31 Fla. 266, 12 So. 865.
O'Mara has indicated that Zimmerman's attempts at raising himself while pinned under Trayvon constitutes his attempt to "retreat" but because of Trayvon's formidable size, he was unable to retreat. But this does not explain why Zimmerman did not announce to Trayvon that he had the gun and intended to shoot. Law enforcement is trained to announce that they intend to shoot before doing so. If Zimmerman had the time to move and position his hand so as to be sure and not shoot it, he had the same time to speak his intentions to Trayvon.

Again, I see this pattern of a definite lack of facts in the paragraph above.
GZ had not duty to announce anything to GZ.

Bottom line - Zimmerman was no cop. He had no probable cause. And worse, he had no training to understand the tenuous legality of his perceived authority. Meanwhile, Trayvon did nothing to require his cooperation or detention. So a confrontation began and an argument ensued. Zimmerman stood his ground against an unarmed man that he unilaterally approached and challenged. Trayvon is dead. Zimmerman is utterly unjustified, regardless of whether Trayvon was agitated enough by having his civil rights violated to have engaged in common assault or mutual combat. Trayvon was unarmed. Zimmerman had the gun.

I hilited the part you made up. I like you you also hedge "whether Trayvon was agitated enough by having his civil rights violated to have engaged in common assault". If you have evidence GZ violated TMs civil right, please let the FBI know. They weren't able to find any.

The arguments for equivalency between Zimmerman and Trayvon because Trayvonn may have been moved to common, non-lethal assault during the confrontation, or even less, to become involved in some mutual non-lethal combat, are subject to my full disregard and contempt. There is dishonesty in that false equivalency that goes to the heart of what went wrong and took a life in Florida.

All you need do is read the Florida statutes and you can see that GZ was not acting lawfully that night. Again, you can stick your fingers in your ears, but those of us who have the ability to read and comprehend understand exactly why O'Mara waived his client's right t o an immunity hearing prior to trial.

*golf clap*
That was nicely written, but again, sadly, devoid of anything more than your opinion.
 
Ha, I should be offended? I am not willing to take the defense's word about how things played out, considering their history of trying the case in the press.

So, when filing court motions, you think MOM is lying ? I don't know how else to understand the hilited. You appear to be disputing the facts they have laid out.

But at the end of the day, this isn't even a material issue.It's just a general "she lied here, so she's lying everywhere".

You keep saying that. But we've seen the outcome of your legal acumen before. Did you consider that maybe you're wrong, and it is material ? Do you know how MOM is planning to run his defense ? Can you say for sure her testimony about that night isn't material ?

And it's clearly a case of the state knowing she lied, but failing to inform the defense as is their duty under brady.

And that's a standard you CLEARLY reject when it comes to George. If they want to hang George's next 25 years on whether or not DeeDee lied about why she didn't want to go to the funeral, then best of luck to them, and make sure you order that orange jump suit in "Xtra Large".

Regarding what they have, they deposed her and got what they got, and yet they are filing a motion to re-litigate, yet again, the issue of Mr. Crump, who isn't even a party to this case.

If I point out where Judge Nelson herself said that Crump must be considered as co-counel for prosecution for purposes of deposition, does that make him party to the case ?

You'd think if they'd discovered anything more damning that the state had withheld, or if the witness was found to be a fraud, they'd be moving to have the court step in.

And do you have evidence they didn't or they won't be doing that shortly ?

But nope, it's back to the same old stuff.

Speaking of offensive, what did you think of Robert Zimmerman donning his white sheet last night?

I think it's irrelevant. Do you think it's relevant ?
 
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I wonder if Ms. Fulton's presence was a product of W8's earlier reluctance to give an interveiw to the SAO.
 
So, when filing court motions, you think MOM is lying ? I don't know how else to understand the hilited. You appear to be disputing the facts they have laid out.

You're asking me to accept their word on something. I'm not willing to do that because I think they haven't earned that right. You then turned that around to ask if I was making an affirmative claim that they were lying. That doesn't follow, which I'm sure you know.

So no, I'm not saying they are lying. I'm saying that I need independent verification before I accept it. You, on the other hand, uncritically accept anything George or his minions say as concrete fact. I find this hard to understand.
 
What? The issue is with the state's handling of exculpatory evidence. This has nothing to do with the content of her testimony and how it impacts the immediate case. That's a seperate issue. "All they got" is the state failing to disclose perjured testimony that it was unquestionably aware of and had already provided to Zimmerman.

I mean, in a critical thinking forum...


What was exculpatory?
 
What was exculpatory?

The defense called it exculpatory, therefore it is. How can you be skeptical in a skeptics forum? How can you dispute that once the defense uttered those magic words it was automatically exculpatory? It's like saying Accio Acquittal.

Behold the wonder.
 
I think it's irrelevant. Do you think it's relevant ?

I think it's relevant considering the only thing backing up the assertion that George is not also a racist, especially in light of his mySpace rants against Mexicans and his long, sordid history of calling the police on any black child who crossed his path, was his family assuring us that he wasn't. And that not only is George not a racist, but no one in his family is as well. Frank Taffe told us this before he let out his "plant corn, you get corn" vomit.

After all, would you think differently of the case if you knew that George hated black people? Would you still find his story as plausible, or would you wonder if he was lying since he's harboring a hateful and irrational prejudice against an entire group of people? Well the only assurances we have on that are those from the people who know him. But what if he hung out with nothing but other racists?

Like Frank Taffe? Like his brother?

But let's go back and see from RZJ had to say about George not too long ago?

http://wavenewspapers.com/article_307c894c-067f-11e2-8ba5-0019bb30f31a.html

"I'm trying to re-introduce our family in the right light," he answered. "I think for a long time we didn't have any control of how we were being portrayed as a family and (our) whole family has paid a price for that."
Zimmerman said his brother had been wrongly portrayed in news reports as a racist a vigilante, and that his race was wrongly reported as "white" — not Hispanic.

Well, now they do have control, and yep. They're racists.
 
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You're asking me to accept their word on something.I'm not willing to do that because I think they haven't earned that right.

During that deposition, Witness 8 testified under oath that she had advised Mr. de la Rionda in the above referenced August interview that she was an adult, and had not, in fact, gone to the hospital; that she had lied about going to the hospital when she advised Mr. Crump of that statement, and that she had also lied to Mr. de la Rionda when she told him in the April2, 2012 sworn interview that she had gone to the hospital.

You understand that whether you believe him or not, as an officer of the court, his word will be accepted, as being a member of the bar has already earned him the right to be believed with his peers and the court system.

You're requirement that MOM needs to earn your right to be believed regarding what he files a court document is absurd.

You then turned that around to ask if I was making an affirmative claim that they were lying. That doesn't follow, which I'm sure you know.

No, It doesn't follow. That's why I asked you if you also believed he was lying.

So no, I'm not saying they are lying. I'm saying that I need independent verification before I accept it. You, on the other hand, uncritically accept anything George or his minions say as concrete fact. I find this hard to understand.

Maybe it's because you are mis-understanding it.
 
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