Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Dancing David]

Yes, he did follow Martin. Briefly, and only in the sense that he went in the same direction Martin had gone in order to maintain a visual.

Why is that a reasonable act?

In fact, keeping an eye on them is the whole point.

Then you can find some literature of a watch group to support that assertion, should be quite easy to do.

 

[12AX7]

So then what's your theory for how the wound was able to close on its own?

Magic?

Because we know it wasn't from stitches.

George has some seriously supernatural healing abilities. To sustain such a prolonged, severe beating (in fact, life-threatening) and look so good the next day.

Incredible. And his self-cleaning clothes are cool too!

 

[tsig]

Are you claiming that joining the neighborhood watch removes legal rights you'd have if you hadn't joined?

Or that being part of the NW means you are effectively considered "on watch" 24 hours a day? Even when you're out on a personal errand?

And remember, he followed him while inside the car before he ever did any following on foot... so was that okay?

See I think what the NW guidelines, particularly the ones which George was given, were concerned about was a person trying to directly detain or confront a suspicious person. I don't think they were trying to prevent people from keeping an eye on someone. In fact, keeping an eye on them is the whole point.

Sometimes you have to move to maintain that visual. Sometimes it might be a bad idea to do that, and maybe it was a bad idea when George did it... you could argue that, and you might have a point. Personally, I don't really think it was a bad idea because he thought Trayvon was long gone, and that they wouldn't come into direct contact.

But I could see how you'd think it was reckless of him. Even if I don't agree. I guess the question is, was it reckless enough that he should spend decades in prison because someone attacked him?

So Z was doing his NW watch duties when Martin jumped him out of nowhere punching him, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground, then Martin and Z struggled on the ground sliding fifty feet while Martin was punching, smothering Z and reaching for his gun til finally Z pulled his gun and killed Martin

I left out the part where Martin stumbled 50' after being fatally shot.

 

[johnny karate]

How can this be made any simpler for you?

1.) You accuse Zimmerman of lying because he says the doctor SAID something which wasn't on the written report. When he was asked what the doctor SAID not what she WROTE.

He said something that was contradicted by the medical report.

Regardless of whether you are capable of admitting Zimmerman might have lied, what he said regarding his need of stitches was untruthful. As the medical report clearly indicates.

If it makes you feel better to spin that into some kind of misunderstanding or semantic quibble, you go right ahead.

 

[phonebook]

The only flaws and disingenuousness is the argumentation in which you grasp at any possibility to exonerate Zimmerman, regardless of its veracity or alignment with reality (Zimmerman's wounds required a butterfly bandage applied by his doctor). In short, you seem to make things up as you go.

I never claimed to be an expert at identifying bandages on sight. I also explained that the reasoning behind me using the term "butterfly" bandage was from a comment I pulled directly from GZ's walk through video, apparently by the person operating the camera, or someone just off screen (I even provided a link to show this). Considering GZ had visited his doctor earlier that day, and that doctor would have had to view his bare, unbandaged skin to assess the wounds she notes on the medical report, I made the assumption that the doctor is the one that provided him the bandages seen on his head ~6 hours later.

I argue from the facts.

And the facts in this matter clearly indicate Zimmerman claimed something that the medical report contradicts.

Despite your earlier claim:

The flaw in your logic has been explained to you.

you have yet to address why the below logic is flawed:

"Can we agree that "no sutures needed" is the same as "not needed"? Can we then also agree that the opposite, or contradiction of "not needed" is "needed"? Is "needed" identical to "could use, but would rather not", thereby being the contradiction of "not needed"?"

This is the only time you have quoted the above:

Considering how uncritically you assumed something to be true that just so happened to benefit Zimmerman's narrative (Zimmerman had butterfly bandages applied by a doctor) that proved itself to be completely untrue, I'm not sure there's any kind of agreement we can reach until you've demonstrated yourself to be less biased.

Feel free to show me where you have previously "explained the flaw in my logic"

 

[Skeptic Tank]

So without a gun Z would be dead?

I seriously doubt that.

I think if the gun hadn't been present, the likely outcome would have been police showing up and arresting Trayvon Martin for felony assault. Or maybe neighbors would have finally grown spines and helped.

I think Zimmerman would have been in roughly the same condition he was, maybe slightly worse.

But this kind of misses the point, which is what George perceived as this assault was taking place. Whether it was reasonable to fear for his life or great bodily harm. I think it absolutely was. He didn't have psychic powers, and he'd already given Trayvon an awful lot of time to locate his conscience and sense of mercy. They apparently were nowhere to be found (if George's story is true.)

And this is without even getting into the issue of Trayvon getting ahold of his gun... but I'll refrain from going off on another tangent.

 

[Dancing David]

Are you claiming that joining the neighborhood watch removes legal rights you'd have if you hadn't joined?

Is it reasonable for GZ to have left his car?

 

[johnny karate]

I never claimed to be an expert at identifying bandages on sight.

I'm not an expert at identifying bandages, either. You know how I figured out you were making things up? I googled it. Took about eleven seconds.

But then again, I'm interested in discerning the truth, and not just manufacturing things on the fly to fit my pre-conceived notion of what occurred.

 

[12AX7]

You pro-zee's can argue till you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact Z didn't even need a bandaid, he refused to go to the hospital 3 times that night, and he didn't put even an ice pack on it that night.

But tarry on...

Yup.

They spin it because, like I said earlier, at the end of the day their hero killed an unarmed teen. And they describe poor George as having been beaten so bad that he looks good the next day.

Those are some Olympic Medal-winning cerebral gymnastics.

 

[KatieG]

Still irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

GZ is a short fat man, that's a fact. Actually, he doesn't really have a fat ass, it looks kinda flat.

I'm going to to be honest with you, I have not studied GZs ass. You apparently do have a lot of free time.

And if you want to play the "go back and find old posts to play a game of gotcha", I'll let you know I have all the time in the world to do some searching on your posts so let's not go there, deal?

Knock yourself out. I try to not be too hypocritical. If you find something you think I should be called out on, go for it.

But how about instead, you just abstain from name calling ?

 

[tsig]

I think another informative thought exercise is to consider what the police would have determined if they arrived on scene to find that both George and Trayvon had died. Trayvon from the gunshot, and George from a sudden aneurysm immediately after firing said gunshot (just as an example of how he could've died right at that moment.)

So, cops show up and they find these two people laying on the grass... what would they decide happened based only on what they could glean without benefit of Zimmerman's statements?

Well, they'd see that George had all the injuries, apart from the near-knuckle abrasion on TM and the gunshot of course...

They'd quickly figure out that George was the one who'd called their non emergency number shortly before, and they'd figure out that this must be the guy he described, since he fit the description, clothing, etc.

They'd talk to Witness 6, Witness 11, etc and piece together what happened...

and I think it would be very clear to them that it was a self-defense shooting.

So yea, I think it's helpful to consider angles like this, which eliminate any considerations about George's supposed "lies" and just boil it down purely to the other evidence.

I see you've allowed your imagination full flight and you've flown right out of reality.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

There is no point in continuing to point out GZ didn't know what street he was on...

This issue is past discussion for me. I don't believe GZ didn't know what street he was on. Period. Fini!

Simple answer, I don't know what Tracey Martin was thinking.

What evidence?

Remind why I want to bother to provide evidence ? I was simply pointing out what you had already stated above.

 

[phonebook]

Why is that a reasonable act?


Then you can find some literature of a watch group to support that assertion, should be quite easy to do.

Because the dispatcher said to him "He's running? Which way is he running?"

The "way" he was running was concealed by multiple large obstructions (town homes), and from GZ's vantage point at the time the dispatcher requested that information of him, the answer was not sufficiently attainable.

Based on the fact that GZ had a perfect opportunity to confront TM when TM approached him, or "circled" his car (GZ was in the safety of his vehicle, and had his gun on him), and chose NOT to confront him. Based on the fact that up until the point GZ got out of his vehicle, the the only thing GZ had been doing was following/keeping an eye on TM, answering the dispatcher's questions, and giving a play-by-play to the dispatcher. And based on the dispatcher's request of information from GZ immediately prior to GZ leaving his vehicle, why would anyone conclude that in that instant GZ decided to do anything but continue those observations, continue providing the dispatcher what he apparently was seeking, and continue to attempt to relay what the dispatcher couldn't hear or see?

 

[johnny karate]

And for everyone so incredulous that Martin's parents might not know the exact height and weight of their growing teenage son, I found this kind of amusing:

From Zimmerman's interview with Serino:

Serino: Um, how tall are you, how much do you weigh?

Zimmerman: Ah, 5-8, ah, 194.

From Zimmerman's medical report:

Height: 5' 7.5"
Weight: 204 lbs

 

[tsig]

How can this be made any simpler for you?

1.) You accuse Zimmerman of lying because he says the doctor SAID something which wasn't on the written report. When he was asked what the doctor SAID not what she WROTE.

2.) The thing he claims the doctor said is perfectly in line with what two EMTs said the night before.

Yet you refuse to believe that the doctor may have framed things in the way Zimmerman claims, which is "the wounds could use stitches, but it's not strictly necessary and we can avoid it, which I'd prefer to do... by making sure to not mess with the wounds." (paraphrased)

Have you honestly never had a doctor frame something in that way for you?

What about a mechanic?

"You could use a new filter, but you could get by without it..." etc...

The mechanic might SAY to you as the two of you talk that it's okay to go without it, but the paperwork he gives you might still just show a simple written recommendation of changing out the filter.

Paperwork tends to be a more simplified format, sometimes even employing a sort of shorthand or code language. It's typically written in a way which is not conversational and not how people talk.

This really isn't that hard of a concept to understand. I can only imagine the reason you are struggling to grasp it, or pretending to struggle to grasp it... is that you're desperate to add another "GZ lie" to your list.

Substituting what you think might have been said for the written record is a bit less than skeptical.

 

[12AX7]

I'm going to to be honest with you, I have not studied GZs ass.

But you've studied Travon's dad's inter-personal relationships.

 

[KatieG]

I seriously doubt that.

I think if the gun hadn't been present, the likely outcome would have been police showing up and arresting Trayvon Martin for felony assault. Or maybe neighbors would have finally grown spines and helped.
I think Zimmerman would have been in roughly the same condition he was, maybe slightly worse.

But this kind of misses the point, which is what George perceived as this assault was taking place. Whether it was reasonable to fear for his life or great bodily harm. I think it absolutely was. He didn't have psychic powers, and he'd already given Trayvon an awful lot of time to locate his conscience and sense of mercy. They apparently were nowhere to be found (if George's story is true.)

And this is without even getting into the issue of Trayvon getting ahold of his gun... but I'll refrain from going off on another tangent.

Wait! It's unlikely any of the neighbors would have seen a gun. Why would they need a spine to come and help when they could call 911 and report a fight? Which is exactly what they did!

 

[Mister Earl]

Ten pounds and half an inch isn't much to be off

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Brandie Green is irrelevant in this case. Is there some reason you felt it necessary to take a cheap shot at her? If someone is separated but not divorced, does that make someone they are dating a mistress?

GZ college "graduation" party is also irrelevant. TM bag with jewelry and screwdriver are irrelevant. Lots of things discussed here are irrelevant to the actual case.

Why are you so worried about this irrelevant factoid ?