Political correctness.

[banquetbear]

But you didn't ask for citation, you said "BS". Those are two completely separate things. They are not at all the same. They are chalk and cheese. They have nothing to do with each other.

...well duh. I haven't communicated with smartcooky in this thread! You aren't quick on the uptake are you?

smartcooky made several claims. joesixpack challenged those claims: he didn't think they passed the "sniff" test. And by now if you've been paying attention you should be aware that they don't. But no matter.

"Hey smartcooky, got any cites for your claims?"

There you go! Asked. Happy now?

Post #120 doesn't say that I took smartcooky at face value. Guess again.

Post 120 says exactly what I said it does: it shows where you hang your hat. I'm not a trained monkey: if you choose not to answer my direct questions why should I answer yours? We know exactly what you think even if you want to keep up this "no-claimer" act.

Why are you arguing with me? In the time it takes you to type a reply to me you could have verified smartcooky's claims. I've provided you with evidence that refutes his claims. joesixpack has stated he did research into smartcooky's claims before he called them BS. Yet you keep on arguing: as if you want to win a semantic point. Get over it already. Over the course of our exchange I believe that sufficent evidence has been supplied that refutes smartcooky's position.

Yet you keep trying to prove me wrong. Its almost as if you are taking his position at face value! There is no evidence to support smartcooky's assertions. If you didn't know that before I entered the thread you should surely know that and concede that now.

You keep trying to deflect things away from what you said in post 120: where you selectively quoted joesixpack to make it look like his arguement was different to what he actually said. You should address that.

 

[psionl0]

Post 120 says exactly what I said it does: it shows where you hang your hat. I'm not a trained monkey: if you choose not to answer my direct questions why should I answer yours? We know exactly what you think even if you want to keep up this "no-claimer" act.

I suppose that if you delete the words in post 120 and substitute a completely different set of words then you would be correct.

In spite of your belief that you/joesixpack have proved or don't have to prove (I can't tell which anymore) that smartcooky is posting BS, this is nothing but a "he said/she said" merry-go-round so I am calling BS on the three of you - without evidence.

 

[banquetbear]

I suppose that if you delete the words in post 120 and substitute a completely different set of words then you would be correct.

In spite of your belief that you/joesixpack have proved or don't have to prove (I can't tell which anymore) that smartcooky is posting BS, this is nothing but a "he said/she said" merry-go-round so I am calling BS on the three of you - without evidence.

...thats nice. Completely wrong: but nice. I've shown the course syllabus for the Bachelor of Nursing: I've shown you college sports sporting results and there is no direct evidence at all for the Manager story. How can smartcooky's claim that scores for state run schools aren't recorded hold true when I present the scorecards for hundreds of school sports events in Auckland? The answer is it can't: and your decision to reject that evidence reveals that you are more concerned at winning a debate on the internet than being able to say "hey, maybe I got this thing wrong."

 

[smartcooky]

I remember it caused a bit of a stir when NZ Police were told to refer to them as "Clients".

I remember that. It was in the late 1990's, at about the same time as the brouhaha erupted over a burglar getting an Accident Compensation payout because he injured himself breaking into a house.

 

[smartcooky]

.How can smartcooky's claim that scores for state run schools aren't recorded hold true when I present the scorecards for hundreds of school sports events in Auckland? The answer is it can't:

It can, and not just in State run schools, and not just in New Zealand either...

http://www.stmichaelsnetballclub.asn.au/
"[FONT=&quot]Motion moved at the BHSNA AGM, held Saturday 10th Novemebr 2012.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“That the score sheet for the 7 years and 8 years only have the names and positions played recorded on them” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore, beginning this year no scores will be kept for those age groups.....
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The club fully supports this motion and will endeavour this year to be more proactive in making sure parents, players, coaches and spectators of not only the modified grades but all grades be well versed in the codes of conduct by distributing information regarding codes of conducts within the first few weeks of competition."[/FONT]

http://www.central.school.nz/school/events/central-school-football
"Immediately before the 2009 season, CFF advised Taranaki clubs that they were doing away with the football format for juniors and transitioning to "Small Sided Games" (SSG), being 4 or 5 players per side, with no goalkeepers, with no need for proper field markings or goals (flags or cones would be used instead). No scores were to be taken, and therefore no 'grading' of teams by ability occurred."


http://www.freeradical.co.nz/content/pishow/pi000512.php
"In a different field, star athlete John Walker was quoted recently as blaming the New Zealand education system for the lack of success by athletes over the past decade. "A lot of sports are losing out because schools tell kids it's all right to lose. They are trying to be Politically Correct by telling kids that it's not cool to win & everyone is a winner." Now we hear of a Netball New Zealand programme for 8-10-year-olds, "Future Ferns," which involves playing games where no scores are kept, so that what would otherwise have been the losing team doesn't have its feelings hurt"

http://sports.fendalton.school.nz/?p=1574
"Grades: School Years 0 – 2 social only so no scores will be recorded!"

http://www.critic.co.nz/news/article/1539/freshers-run-about-in-meaningless-bid-for-physical
First-years (especially Arana kids) were gutted to find out that no scores were kept from this year’s event and no overall winner was crowned. A Unipol spokesperson claimed that “it’s just a social thing”, but Arana RA “Big Boy” added the caveat that “we all know who won”.

There are hundreds of references just like this, I just can't be arsed spending hours posting them all. No doubt some will dismiss these as being not valid, or whatever, I don't really care. I know what I know and I know what I believe

Perhaps not all State schools don't keep scores, but a LOT of them don't. And when a former Olympic Gold Medal winning athlete, who deals with school kids in sport all the time, says that schools are teaching kids that winning is not cool, I regard that as a reliable source, and I tend to stand up and take notice!

 

[banquetbear]

It can, and not just in State run schools, and not just in New Zealand either...

http://www.stmichaelsnetballclub.asn.au/
"[FONT=&quot]Motion moved at the BHSNA AGM, held Saturday 10th Novemebr 2012.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“That the score sheet for the 7 years and 8 years only have the names and positions played recorded on them” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore, beginning this year no scores will be kept for those age groups.....
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The club fully supports this motion and will endeavour this year to be more proactive in making sure parents, players, coaches and spectators of not only the modified grades but all grades be well versed in the codes of conduct by distributing information regarding codes of conducts within the first few weeks of competition."[/FONT]

http://www.central.school.nz/school/events/central-school-football
"Immediately before the 2009 season, CFF advised Taranaki clubs that they were doing away with the football format for juniors and transitioning to "Small Sided Games" (SSG), being 4 or 5 players per side, with no goalkeepers, with no need for proper field markings or goals (flags or cones would be used instead). No scores were to be taken, and therefore no 'grading' of teams by ability occurred."


http://www.freeradical.co.nz/content/pishow/pi000512.php
"In a different field, star athlete John Walker was quoted recently as blaming the New Zealand education system for the lack of success by athletes over the past decade. "A lot of sports are losing out because schools tell kids it's all right to lose. They are trying to be Politically Correct by telling kids that it's not cool to win & everyone is a winner." Now we hear of a Netball New Zealand programme for 8-10-year-olds, "Future Ferns," which involves playing games where no scores are kept, so that what would otherwise have been the losing team doesn't have its feelings hurt"

http://sports.fendalton.school.nz/?p=1574
"Grades: School Years 0 – 2 social only so no scores will be recorded!"

http://www.critic.co.nz/news/article/1539/freshers-run-about-in-meaningless-bid-for-physical
First-years (especially Arana kids) were gutted to find out that no scores were kept from this year’s event and no overall winner was crowned. A Unipol spokesperson claimed that “it’s just a social thing”, but Arana RA “Big Boy” added the caveat that “we all know who won”.

There are hundreds of references just like this, I just can't be arsed spending hours posting them all. No doubt some will dismiss these as being not valid, or whatever, I don't really care. I know what I know and I know what I believe

Perhaps not all State schools don't keep scores, but a LOT of them don't. And when a former Olympic Gold Medal winning athlete, who deals with school kids in sport all the time, says that schools are teaching kids that winning is not cool, I regard that as a reliable source, and I tend to stand up and take notice!

...concession accepted. Your claim is unproven.

The CFF is not the State School system and it sure looks like the schools aren't happy. From your article the State Schools decided to join a rebel league instead. What was the outcome of this smartcooky? The memo was written three years ago. Whats the update?

John Walker talks about the Future Ferns: exactly what does a NZ Netball initiative have to do with State Schools? Here are the games played by the Future Ferns:

http://www.mynetball.co.nz/flipbook/files/assets/downloads/publication.pdf

Bouncing a ball off a wall: skipping and passing a ball between the legs. What a great team sport! I wonder how you score that?

You then cite a University Fun day. What the article probably neglected to mention was they were probably chugging beers in the middle of each event. On the same website is an article titled: "Test Match Induces Persistent Vegetative State in Spectators." What relevance that has to State Schools I have no idea, and I bet you don't have an idea either.

So that leaves you with the Fendalton Open Air School. The school that former New Zealand cricketer and arguably the world's greatest all-rounder Richard Hadlee used to attend. Whatever they do at that school, they must be doing something right. So you managed to find one sport at one school where the scores aren't kept. Can I remind you of your claim?

"Children at state-run schools are not allowed to excel, especially in sports. Excellence is frowned upon, so there are no winners or losers and the scores are not kept, lest it should dent the egos of the less successful children, and their parents."

Your assertion is not supported. Are you going to continually keep googling: hoping in vain you will find some links to back up your claim? Well you won't be able to because I've already provided evidence that children at state-run schools are allowed to excel, especially in sports, excellence isn't frowned on, there are winners and loosers and scores are kept. You might be able to find a few statistical outliers to that proposition but you can't prove your case. You don't even read your cites.

 

[smartcooky]

...concession accepted. Your claim is unproven.

The CFF is not the State School system

So, you want to argue about the argument about the argument? (the repeat was intentional)

Did you actually read my last post?

"not just in State run schools, and not just in New Zealand either..."

"Perhaps not all State schools don't keep scores, but a LOT of them don't."

That is a partial retraction and the rules of the game are that, if I make a retraction, I no longer have to prove the claim I originally made, because I am no longer claiming it!

All I now have to prove, is the remaining claim after the retraction.

That schools and other organisations in NZ and overseas (not necessarily all of them) do in fact have a Politically Correct policy of not scoring sports.

And since I posted links to schools and other organisations showing that it is in fact the case, that claim is proven. Q.E.D.

Personally, I would rather get into the actual substance of the debate, but what I am finding with this forum is that I don't enjoy posting in some parts of it, because debates get side tracked and bogged down by posters who want to nitpick over every piffling insignificant detail such as the precise interpretations of what others post.

What I find incredible in this thread is that I see people who consider themselves "Critical thinkers" actually supporting Political Correctness, and that they actually seem to believe its a good thing. I consider the term Politically Correct Critical Thinker to be an oxymoron, and cannot understand how anyone with an ounce of commonsense would support it.

If that makes me a dinosaur, then so be it. To paraphrase Cullen Hightower, those who agree with me may not always be right, I nonetheless admire their astuteness.

 

[joesixpack]

What I find incredible in this thread is that I see people who consider themselves "Critical thinkers" actually supporting Political Correctness, and that they actually seem to believe its a good thing. I consider the term Politically Correct Critical Thinker to be an oxymoron, and cannot understand how anyone with an ounce of commonsense would support it.

What I find incredible is the "moral panic" aspect of the arguments against the bugbear of "Political Correctness". So far most of the "examples" of political correctness run amok have been gross exaggerations, outliers, or outright fiction.

I have also noticed that the loudest complaints against political correctness often come from those who seem to feel that they've a right to be insufferably rude and/or abusive.

 

[banquetbear]

So, you want to argue about the argument about the argument? (the repeat was intentional)

Did you actually read my last post?

"not just in State run schools, and not just in New Zealand either..."

"Perhaps not all State schools don't keep scores, but a LOT of them don't."

That is a partial retraction and the rules of the game are that, if I make a retraction, I no longer have to prove the claim I originally made, because I am no longer claiming it!

...oh come on: give me a break. Your citations were in response to this:

"How can smartcooky's claim that scores for state run schools aren't recorded hold true when I present the scorecards for hundreds of school sports events in Auckland? The answer is it can't:"

Why did you quote that and provide citations to that quote if you weren't responding to what I wrote?

All I now have to prove, is the remaining claim after the retraction.

So you need to prove this, correct?

"Children at state-run schools are not allowed to excel, especially in sports. Excellence is frowned upon, so there are no winners or losers"

That schools and other organisations in NZ and overseas (not necessarily all of them) do in fact have a Politically Correct policy of not scoring sports.

Nonsense. Finding a single school that didn't record the scores (for some undetermined reason: quite possibly not "political correctness) for a single tournament and a sports body who made a decision that didn't have the support of the public do not prove your point that "Children at state-run schools are not allowed to excel, especially in sports. Excellence is frowned upon, so there are no winners or losers" Two examples is an outlier, not the rule.

And since I posted links to schools and other organisations showing that it is in fact the case, that claim is proven. Q.E.D.

Maybe in "La La Land." But not in the real world.

Personally, I would rather get into the actual substance of the debate, but what I am finding with this forum is that I don't enjoy posting in some parts of it, because debates get side tracked and bogged down by posters who want to nitpick over every piffling insignificant detail such as the precise interpretations of what others post.

...nitpicking? You told flat out untruths. If you don't enjoy posting in parts of this message board its because you make big loud assertions that simply aren't true. You've gone from ""Children at state-run schools are not allowed to excel, especially in sports. Excellence is frowned upon, so there are no winners or losers and the scores are not kept, lest it should dent the egos of the less successful children, and their parents." to ""Perhaps not all State schools don't keep scores, but a LOT of them don't" and in support of that you've provided evidence of a single state school, in a single sport in a single tournament not keeping score, then you declared victory. I mean lets be honest here: are you being serious?

What I find incredible in this thread is that I see people who consider themselves "Critical thinkers" actually supporting Political Correctness, and that they actually seem to believe its a good thing. I consider the term Politically Correct Critical Thinker to be an oxymoron, and cannot understand how anyone with an ounce of commonsense would support it.

Rant Rant Rant. Nothing of substance here: just a not-to-subtle attempt to put a label on those who disagree with you. Debate is hard when you have to deal in the facts, isn't it?

If that makes me a dinosaur, then so be it. To paraphrase Cullen Hightower, those who agree with me may not always be right, I nonetheless admire their astuteness.

Yeah: cry me a river.

 

[joesixpack]

Why don't you provide the post numbers where I said that I am taking any of smartcooky's claims at face value.

Or perhaps the fact that you assiduously avoid challenging the claims.

AFAIK both claim and counter-claim lack evidence.

But you only feel the need to call out one of us for criticism..

You expect everybody to believe he is talking BS simply because you say so.

No, I expect people to believe him when he produces some reasonable evidence. You expect us to take the claims at face value.

 

[psionl0]

If you hadn't included the words, "I call BS ..." we would have nothing to discuss.

Instead, you just had to go that extra step then dig your heels in when called out on it.

 

[uke2se]

If you hadn't included the words, "I call BS ..." we would have nothing to discuss.

Instead, you just had to go that extra step then dig your heels in when called out on it.

Jesus Christ, just drop it, will ya?

 

[angrysoba]

I think when it comes to political correctness there is a fundamental problem of not being able to distinguish the baby from the bathwater.

For example, there are many words that are not used very much on daytime TV in England because to do so would be a bit upsetting for some people.

"Black dyke!" would upset some people.
"Stupid Wog!" would upset others.
"White trash!" would upset still more people.

However, some people get upset when only some of these things get taken off the air and the other things to stay there. I mean, isn't it amazing that Gollywogs have taken over and made everyone else submit to their tyrannical rule!?!?!?

 

[kerikiwi]

And when a former Olympic Gold Medal winning athlete, who deals with school kids in sport all the time, says that schools are teaching kids that winning is not cool, I regard that as a reliable source, and I tend to stand up and take notice!

How do we get from teaching kids that it is okay to lose, to teaching kids that winning is 'not coo'l? Accepting that it is okay to lose does not mean winning is not cool.
Who is this former Olympic Gold Medal winning athlete and why is his/her interpretation better than someone else's?
If I found another former Olympic Gold Medal winning athlete who said that schools are not teaching kids that winning is not cool would you stand up and take notice?

 

[smartcooky]

Who is this former Olympic Gold Medal winning athlete and why is his/her interpretation better than someone else's?

Sir John Walker

http://www.magazinestoday.co.nz/Features/Interviews/John+Walker.html

His "Find your Field of Dreams" project ought to be a blueprint for all schools throughout New Zealand. Sadly, that is not the case.

If I found another former Olympic Gold Medal winning athlete who said that schools are not teaching kids that winning is not cool would you stand up and take notice?

Good luck with that.

If you found one that was even close to the standing of this man, I would be prepared to listen to what he has to say.


"A kid in sport stays out of court" is the motto of our local "SportTasman" organisation.

When I see the increase in youth offending and drunkenness, and the decline in the importance of real sports in schools in New Zealand brought about by the Politically Correct philosophy of participation being more important that competition, I connect the dots. Others may not, and that is, sadly IMO, their right.

 

[uke2se]

Sir John Walker

http://www.magazinestoday.co.nz/Features/Interviews/John+Walker.html

His "Find your Field of Dreams" project ought to be a blueprint for all schools throughout New Zealand. Sadly, that is not the case.

Reading that article, I must say that he has a nice resume, but I disagree with him vehemently in how he characterizes sport in schools, and his views on how it should be played. A psychologist, the man is not.

It also has nothing to do with political correctness.

We don't have PE in schools to breed a new generation of Olympic gold medalists. We have it to keep kids active, give them some exercise and to build their confidence. You can't single out individual kids as winners and losers in that context. Yes, two kids facing each other over a table-tennis table is going to result in one winner and one loser, but you can't simply praise the winner. You need to encourage both kids equally.

This is pretty basic stuff really. I can't understand why Mr Walker doesn't understand that. Or maybe he does and Smartcooky simply didn't link to a source showing such understanding.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Cite please. I have never heard of it before. And it went on for several years?

I seriously doubt I am going to be able to locate links to something pretty minor that occured nearly twenty years ago. It was however discussed a number of times between then NewsTalk ZB Host Chris Carter (who died suddenly in 2010) and the spokesperson for the NZ Police Association, Greg O'Conner. I'm not sure how long it lasted, I doubt it was years since the Police weren't overly thrilled with the idea.

 

[smartcooky]

We don't have PE in schools to breed a new generation of Olympic gold medalists. We have it to keep kids active, give them some exercise and to build their confidence.

And if they aren't interested because there is no competition, no pay-off at the end, no feel-good, then what?

When I see local schools that, in my time both as a student and as a teacher, used to be able to field three Rugby XVs (I played for the Third XV as a 13 year old and progresses to play First XV as a sixth former), three Cricket XIs, four Soccer XIs, and a whole load of Track & Field athletes, and now they can only field one (and in cricket, they even struggle to do that) then I know there is something wrong systemically.

I think Sir John Walker is exactly right about how sport is run in schools. I have seen some of this first hand...

► an eight year old boy who threw his hands in the air in celebration when he won a sprint race on Wednesday afternoon sports, only to be told off by a teacher for being inconsiderate towards the kids who didn't win;

► standing down the rugby team's best player to "give another boy a turn" (that player's father eventually pulled him from our school team end he ended up playing for a club junior grade team instead);

► a kid who "fist pumped" when he scored a winning point playing tennis (imitating Rafa?) gets a telling off for being arrogant.

In all these cases, the teachers are being killjoys, and are, whether they understand it or not, discouraging excellence, and encouraging the idea that you must keep your head down and and not be overtly proud of your achievements. Its Political Correctness and Tall Poppy Syndrome of the worst kind.

 

[kerikiwi]

I have seen some of this first hand...

► an eight year old boy who threw his hands in the air in celebration when he won a sprint race on Wednesday afternoon sports, only to be told off by a teacher for being inconsiderate towards the kids who didn't win;

► standing down the rugby team's best player to "give another boy a turn" (that player's father eventually pulled him from our school team end he ended up playing for a club junior grade team instead);

► a kid who "fist pumped" when he scored a winning point playing tennis (imitating Rafa?) gets a telling off for being arrogant.

In all these cases, the teachers are being killjoys, and are, whether they understand it or not, discouraging excellence, and encouraging the idea that you must keep your head down and and not be overtly proud of your achievements. Its Political Correctness and Tall Poppy Syndrome of the worst kind.

I have seen at first hand many examples which are the anithesis of yours.
In all my examples the teachers were being joymakers, encouraging excellence, encouraging success, discouraging putting down others, encouraging being proud of achievements and not denigrating others.
Tall Poppy syndrome is a load of tosh.

 

[smartcooky]

I have seen at first hand many examples which are the anithesis of yours.
In all my examples the teachers were being joymakers, encouraging excellence, encouraging success, discouraging putting down others, encouraging being proud of achievements and not denigrating others.
Tall Poppy syndrome is a load of tosh.

How wonderful for you!

I'm sure there are many examples of teachers being joy makers etc, etc.

I would in fact hope that ALL teachers were like that, but the sad fact of life is that they are not. There are many examples of the sorts of things I posted happening, and THEY SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING AT ALL!

Can we agree on that at least, that they should NOT be happening at all!!