Merged Has this structural engineer been debunked? / Astaneh-Asl "melting of girders"

[Oystein]

... The second external total collapse phase taking 6.5 seconds + - ...

Apart from everything else that you got wrong, I think you should realize at this time that no one ever substantiated these "6.5 s +/-", that they are WRONG, and a value >8 s and possibly closer to 9 s should be substituted.

 

[LSSBB]

2.50 seconds AT gravitational acceleration.
No Resistant FREE FALL

Please show where this is true on a graph of the acceleration. Be sure to include what the measurement error is.

 

[jaydeehess]

your post 1244 is where you mention "his paper". i did not present any of his "papers" at that point in time.

ok then you are admitting to attempting to deduce Astaneh's conclusions by reading the characterizations and writings of reporters , at that time?
Astaneh himself has now been quoted as rejecting all conspiracy believer's characterizations and contentions wrt to him and his work. This rejection has been unequivicable and yet you continue to attempt to use Astaneh to bolster a contention of thermite induced organized demolitions. In short, the person you are trying to use for this, now, and before you bothered to reference his work, totally rejects any such contention!
Are we now suppose to accept that you are a good reseqrcher who's own characterizatipns we can trust?

 

[jaydeehess]

Please show where this is true on a graph of the acceleration. Be sure to include what the measurement error is.

indeed the graphs that have been produced indicate some periods of greater than freefall accelleration which remo would be hard pressed to fit into any demolition scheme

 

[jaydeehess]

your post 1244 is where you mention "his paper". i did not present any of his "papers" at that point in time.

Your first post in this thread was #909 and my post was 1244 at which time you state I was incorrect to say that you had quoted any of Astaneh's work You had even written to Astaneh then BEFORE you could be bothered to read his paper!

Its utterly amazing then that you would wish to point out my mistake in assuming you had indeed read and quoted his paper after your having already been in this thread rather extensively for over 300 posts.

Amazing but hardly surprising given that yours is a game of semantics above all else. You want Gamalon's exact questioning of Astaneh in order to say 'aha! You did not exactingly and specifically word it this way'

 

[jaydeehess]

These WTC7 fires, on the ONE floor [12]around the ONE column seat [79] - although photographically proven OUT at the time of critical initiation,

Not really since the photos cannot show what was occuring INSIDE the building and at the area where column 79 is

none-the-less magically heated the giant beams above them so hot , they flexed and broke the 3/4" shear studs @22" centers all down their middles instantly

Instantly?, no the studs could break at any time during the fire phase and the beams would have been heated throughout the fire phase and continued to heat as hot gasses continued to flow in the space above the window level and below the concrete ceiling level,

tho simultaneously, the same fires did NOT heat the CONCRETE directly SAT upon them [NCSTAR1-9:352][Did NOT HEAT the CONCRETE in the MODEL]

Not sure why you even mention this as concrete failure was not an initiating cause of collapse

So that these mighty beams moved as did pinocchio Sunder's nose as he delivered his egregious agnotology to science and mediahackery,. in the 'No Mystery' creatioNIST report.

Ridiculous bit of barely legible rhetoric

However, continuing, the girder, thus pushed, crack'd the numerous welded protections at column seat/join built against it happening, to drop, suddenly, onto the concrete floor beneath

prevent what from happening? Being pushed, or falling? Is this supposed to mean that it was impossible?

with SUCH abandon, that the whole 81 vertically columned, 47 storied,steel framed high rise came down in of itself ten seconds later, in two sequences.

Try that again and this time try to make some sense. The sequence of collapse has been shown to have taken a total of a minimum of 16 seconds from column seat failure to completion of global collapse.

The first internal. The second external total collapse phase taking 6.5 seconds + -

Closer to 8-9 seconds for external frame collapse , by which time the internal structure was largely no longer of any consequence.

2.50 seconds AT gravitational acceleration.

At or above gravitational accelleration, as seen in femr2's graphs which indicates beyond reasonable doubt that the accelleration measured has been affected by rotational effects

No Resistant FREE FALL

There's that English thing again

Airborne .

Nope ! Airborne would suggest flying, ie. staying in the air, not falling through it.

english enough for you ?

Not really, its more like frothing at the mouth rhetoric. Even in the parts you seemingly got right.

 

[Senenmut]

ok then you are admitting to attempting to deduce Astaneh's conclusions by reading the characterizations and writings of reporters , at that time?
Astaneh himself has now been quoted as rejecting all conspiracy believer's characterizations and contentions wrt to him and his work. This rejection has been unequivicable and yet you continue to attempt to use Astaneh to bolster a contention of thermite induced organized demolitions. In short, the person you are trying to use for this, now, and before you bothered to reference his work, totally rejects any such contention!
Are we now suppose to accept that you are a good reseqrcher who's own characterizatipns we can trust?

those articles have quotes and they have how much steel "corroded" over a certain time period.

keep on spinning.

 

[jaydeehess]

those articles have quotes and they have how much steel "corroded" over a certain time period.

keep on spinning.

Several of those quotes you used were not of Astaneh, they were the reporters own words. One wonders why, in a discussion about a scientist's conclusions about a subject he wrote a paper on you would choose to quote news articles rather than the paper itself.

However, that is all a moot point given that Astaneh himself is on record as having denounced, in no uncertain terms, any and all contentions regarding his work made by persons like yourself.

Yeah, yeah, one could contend say that he is afraid of repercussions if he came out and said you are correct but that would be 'spinning', wouldn't it.

 

[Justin39640]

those articles have quotes and they have how much steel "corroded" over a certain time period.

keep on spinning.

FYI: Corrosion is different than melting.

 

[jaydeehess]

FYI: Corrosion is different than melting.

Not to mention a few corroded steel beams or flanges is different than a widespread usage of thermite in an organized demolition operation.

 

[tfk]

Wow.

Just …
… wow.

Your profile says you're 58.
I've got you by 2 years.


The engineers that contributed to the NIST report have (SWAG alert) somewhere around 5000 years of engineering experience.
The ones that contributed to the portions that you find so incredulous (below) "only" have about 500 years.
I've got almost 40.

How many years do you have?

These WTC7 fires, on the ONE floor [12] around the ONE column seat [79]

wrong.

- although photographically proven OUT at the time of critical initiation,

wrong.

none-the-less magically heated

wrong.

the giant beams above them so hot , they flexed and broke

wrong.

the 3/4" shear studs @22" centers all down their middles

wrong.

instantly,

wrong.

tho simultaneously, the same fires did NOT heat the CONCRETE directly SAT upon them [NCSTAR1-9:352]

wrong.

There are about 50 figures in the NIST report that show exactly how hot NIST calculated the concrete floors got.

[NIST] Did NOT HEAT the CONCRETE in the MODEL

Yup, you're right.

NIST said that the concrete heated up.
But, when they ran their model that told them that the shear studs snapped, they left the concrete at room temp in the model.

And this was the CORRECT way to do this analysis.

Let's see if you can figure out "why"...

So that these mighty beams moved as did pinocchio Sunder's nose as he delivered his egregious agnotology to science and mediahackery,. in the 'No Mystery' creatioNIST report.

The beams moved (actually "expanded") exactly like 200+ years of engineering knowledge said they would. Which happens to be exactly like what Sunder explained, in terms understandable to anyone with any technical competence.

Please, explain to me what you think that he said that was incorrect...

However, continuing, the girder, thus pushed, crack'd the numerous welded protections

wrong. Sheared small bolts.

at column seat/join built against it happening,

wrong.
Nobody foresaw this happening.
Nobody designed "against it happening."

They do now.

to drop, suddenly, onto the concrete floor beneath with SUCH abandon,

wrong.
"Drop with abandon" is gibberish.

It dropped with sufficient force, impulse, momentum, energy (take your pick) such that the collision with the floor below was the straw that broke the camel's back for 2 - 5 additional floors beneath it. Floors which had long since had the majority of their floor beams fail.

that the whole 81 vertically columned, 47 storied,steel framed high rise came down in of itself ten seconds later,

wrong.

in two sequences. The first internal. The second external

WOW. You got one right

total collapse phase taking 6.5 seconds + - ;

Aaannnnd ... back to "wrong."

2.50 seconds AT gravitational acceleration.

wrong.

No Resistant FREE FALL

wrong.

Airborne .

wrong.

english enough for you ?

Wrong enough for ya?

I can assure you that it's "wrong enough for a truther."

tk

PS. Sheesh, if I'd read a few more posts, I'd have seen that JD did the same thing. Could have gotten back 5 minutes of wasted time.

 

[jaydeehess]

Wow.

Just …
… wow.

Your profile says you're 58.
I've got you by 2 years.

..................snip...............tk

PS. Sheesh, if I'd read a few more posts, I'd have seen that JD did the same thing. Could have gotten back 5 minutes of wasted time.

You have me by three years then.
I see you went more line by line than I did but I think I was a bit more verbose.

I especially like the characterization of an object in free fall as "Airborne". Odd that a person who chooses to use words like "agnotology" can be so very incompetent in grammar.

 

[remo]

Pedantry

It is a matter of degree, Mr.Hess.
'borne' I can take to mean borne IN air, rather than OF it. Either way of little consequence to the new phenomena agnotology at heart of 911 demolitions, allowing an 81 vertically columned 47 storied steel framed high rise to drop suddenly into its own plan area in 6.5 + seconds because of "Normal Office Furnishings Fires" on ONE floor around ONE column seat.
Also, for instance, FREE FALL can be considered to mean 'The Speed of Deceit' in creatioNIST literature.
And the notion of 'The magic BOLT' at center of the Pinocchio Sunder 'walking girder' fairytale, invented by the boffins at cartooNIST computer lab.
Tho why anyone could GAF, is another of the great unknowns surrounding 911 false flag attack.

 

[Oystein]

Let me do the tfk on this - I think it can be done even with 0 years of engineering experience:

It is a matter of degree, Mr.Hess.
'borne' I can take to mean borne IN air, rather than OF it.

Wrong

Either way of little consequence to the new phenomena agnotology at heart of 911 demolitions,

We'll figure out who is the agnotologist here soon. (Hint: I am responding to him right now)

allowing an 81 vertically columned 47 storied steel framed high rise to drop suddenly

Wrong

into its own plan area

Wrong

in 6.5 + seconds

Wrong

because of "Normal Office Furnishings Fires"

Wrong

on ONE floor

Wrong

around ONE column seat.

Wrong

Also, for instance, FREE FALL

There wasn't any.

can be considered to mean 'The Speed of Deceit' in creatioNIST literature.

Yours is impressive

 

[Grizzly Bear]

allowing an 81 vertically columned 47 storied steel framed high rise to drop suddenly into its own plan area in 6.5 + seconds because of "Normal Office Furnishings Fires" on ONE floor around ONE column seat.

One, we already know the columns were "vertically aligned"
Two, the number of columns is about as meaningful as slamming the brakes on a speeding car to avoid a car accident when the car is 3 feet in front you.
Three, free fall/no resistance is factually wrong, even if you think the collapse still happened "too fast"
Four, you're not the first person on this forum to try and make "free fall, vertically aligned columns, and "into it's own plan area" sound scientific or anything engineering.

Before we take any memes inspired by the Kennedy conspiracies, the discussion needs to actually deal with substance not made into a propagandist talking point for the last 11 years. Hate to add to the "pile up" but face it, the towers were not miniature lego constructs, they were life-sized buildings, and the forces exerted on them in a dynamic load are exponentially more severe than what you'll ever get in a toy assembly. Just because a stack of legos might resist something like that scaled down, doesn't mean the same will apply to something thousands of times larger. If you don't grasp that concept, debate's not going to be productive. Criticizing a report when it's clear you don't understand the concepts well isn't very conducive to discussion either

 

[dafydd]

These WTC7 fires, on the ONE floor [12]around the ONE column seat [79] - although photographically proven OUT at the time of critical initiation, none-the-less magically heated the giant beams above them so hot , they flexed and broke the 3/4" shear studs @22" centers all down their middles instantly, tho simultaneously, the same fires did NOT heat the CONCRETE directly SAT upon them [NCSTAR1-9:352][Did NOT HEAT the CONCRETE in the MODEL]

So that these mighty beams moved as did pinocchio Sunder's nose as he delivered his egregious agnotology to science and mediahackery,. in the 'No Mystery' creatioNIST report.

However, continuing, the girder, thus pushed, crack'd the numerous welded protections at column seat/join built against it happening, to drop, suddenly, onto the concrete floor beneath with SUCH abandon, that the whole 81 vertically columned, 47 storied,steel framed high rise came down in of itself ten seconds later, in two sequences. The first internal. The second external total collapse phase taking 6.5 seconds + - ;

2.50 seconds AT gravitational acceleration.
No Resistant FREE FALL

Airborne .

english enough for you ?

Not really.

 

[beachnut]

here comes some knowledge... but it will ...

... drop suddenly into its own plan area in 6.5 + seconds because of "Normal Office Furnishings Fires" on ONE floor around ONE column seat.
...

WTC 7 took over 15 seconds to collapse, the only part you got right was +

I have not seen a building survive a normal office fire that was not fought. Have you? Any examples. I have two examples of buildings that were totaled by fires fought. Do you have any useful knowledge on the subject?

WTC 7 did not fall into it own plan area. You are propagating an idiotic lie made up by nuts in 911 truth. Now you know the rest of the story.

The remo hit and run... backed with 11 years of failure

 

[jaydeehess]

It is a matter of degree, Mr.Hess.
'borne' I can take to mean borne IN air, rather than OF it. Either way of little consequence to the new phenomena agnotology at heart of 911 demolitions, allowing an 81 vertically columned 47 storied steel framed high rise to drop suddenly into its own plan area in 6.5 + seconds because of "Normal Office Furnishings Fires" on ONE floor around ONE column seat.
Also, for instance, FREE FALL can be considered to mean 'The Speed of Deceit' in creatioNIST literature.
And the notion of 'The magic BOLT' at center of the Pinocchio Sunder 'walking girder' fairytale, invented by the boffins at cartooNIST computer lab.
Tho why anyone could GAF, is another of the great unknowns surrounding 911 false flag attack.

What a wonderful load of dogma (others might prefer another description beginning with'dog').

Still see no explanation for your ,imo, inexplicable decison to try to use Astaneh without yet bothering to read his work but to instead use journalistic impressions of him and ignore his stated rejections of any and all CT misrepresentations of him or his work.

 

[JSanderO]

"''What the hell would burn so fiercely for seven hours that the Fire Department would be afraid to fight it?'' said one member of the investigating team.

According to the Port Authority floor plans, 275-gallon diesel tanks sat on the fifth, seventh and eighth floors and were fed through pipes from the larger tanks near ground level. The team member said that while the diesel fuel remains the most likely candidate for feeding the fires, it was still unknown whether there could have been other sources of fuel in the building, kept there by tenants like the Secret Service that have disclosed little of what their spaces contained.

The huge steel transfer trusses ran mostly through the fifth, sixth and seventh floors where the fires burned. The purpose of the trusses, which included zigzagging and horizontal members and were concentrated around the building's core, was to allow 7 World Trade to be built over two Consolidated Edison substations that already existed on that spot when the building went up in the late 1980's. Together the stations held 10 transformers, each about 35 feet high and 40 feet wide.

Using the trusses to avoid having vertical structural columns pierce the transformers, the building was constructed around them like a hen sitting on a giant egg.

''We had to do design tricks to accommodate the existing Con Ed facility,'' said Mr. Cantor, the structural engineer. ''This building had an awful lot of transfers.''

Transfer trusses are a well-tested technique and are used in countless high-rise buildings, as well as in bridges around the world. Engineers say that transfer trusses, for most buildings, present no extraordinary hazard. But if there is an explosion, earthquake or long-burning fire, they can present a problem.

In Oklahoma City, during the 1995 bombing of the Federal Building, a large transfer girder on the building's third floor gave way, helping to precipitate a progressive collapse that later analysis showed was responsible for most of the 168 deaths. After this attack, federal guidelines for buildings that would hold government agencies were changed, recommending that buildings be designed so that single-point failures did not cause a catastrophic collapse.

Videos of the 5:28 p.m. collapse of 7 World Trade lend vivid support to the truss-failure theory. Roughly 30 seconds before the building goes down, a rooftop mechanical room starts to disappear, falling into the building's core. Then a second larger rooftop room sinks. The building then quickly collapses.

Both rooms were above sections of the building held up by the trusses. Other video evidence shows fire concentrated in the floors containing the trusses and the fuel tanks.

Dr. John D. Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice, Exponent Failure Analysis Associates, in Menlo Park, Calif., reviewed videos of the collapse, discussed it with other engineers and came to a similar conclusion; the fuel, the trusses and the fire brought 7 World Trade down. ''The pieces have come together,'' he said. ''Without the fuel, I think the building would have done fine.''"

 

[DGM]

"''What the hell would burn so fiercely for seven hours that the Fire Department would be afraid to fight it?'' said one member of the investigating team.

Actually it was the building falling on their heads they were worried about.

Can't sell a belief if you said that, huh?

Have you ever heard the expression "jump the shark"? You pole vaulted over the whole bay.