Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[kbonn]

LOL, yeah, a noob who signed on October 4th on a site started in August a little over a month earlier. So I had a good laugh when setar said "you're new here."

This thread really is a prime example of the kind of madness that prevails at A+. Now that Chris has humbly apologized and bowed out they will be charitable towards him and focus their venom on mood2 if she doesn't follow his lead and stfu. I really hope qwint or Apos will try and defend ceepolk and setar's arguments itt. C'mon guys! Lets be havin ya!

Qwint already has, "It's emotional!"

 

[Joe Random]

To me one of the saddest parts about the direction the SJWs are going with their cries of '<x> is SEXIST!!' is that it dilutes actual cases of for-real reinforcement of sexist stereotypes. For example, the first tablet For Wimminz :

http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-livi...a-woman-to-use--and-it-s-pink--184014098.html

Not only is it pink, the marketing VP has this to add :

“The tablet comes preloaded with applications so you can just turn it on and log in to cooking recipes or yoga,” Eurostar's Associate Vice President for Marketing, Mani Nair, told The Media Line. “It makes a perfect gadget for a woman who might find difficulties in terms of downloading these applications and it is a quick reference.”

Of course the fact that it was developed by "Middle East-based Eurostar Group" probably has a wee something to do with that, but still.

I'd be far more concerned with examples like 'The First Tablet So Easy Even You Can Use It Little Missy' than, say, injudicious use of pronouns, or the rampant phalocentrism in modern soda bottle designs (and no, I wouldn't be surprised if there actually is an essay on that last one somewhere out there).

 

[Axiom_Blade]

That definition (Racism = Prejudice + Power) comes out of Critical Race Theory, which has pretty much taken over large swaths of sociology and ethnic relations studies.

Yeah, I've never seen a dictionary with that definition in it. (I don't have a social justice dictionary, though.)

Racism is:

1. (Sociology) the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
2. (Sociology) abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

There's also another definition, which is "Discrimination or prejudice based on race."...but nothing in there about power.

This has always been a head-scratcher to me, how otherwise intelligent people could think that redefining "racism" as "prejudice + power" was somehow legit. Is it okay to just go around making up new meanings for words now?

"Hey! You stole that from me!"
"Naw, man, that's not possible."
"Why is that?"
"According to the definition, the word 'steal' can only be used with people who are not Axiom_Blade."

 

[Senor_Pointy]

Yeah, I've never seen a dictionary with that definition in it. (I don't have a social justice dictionary, though.)

Stop right there! You don't get to push your privileged "dictionary definitions" that white male patriarchs wrote on us!

Instead we use one written and popularized by a privileged white woman.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Hmmmm... would it make any difference if I did this (on reflection):

I think the commercialisation issue is a different one from the racism issue.

I mean, the man behind what's considered to be the first rock and roll record, Ike Turner's "Rocket 88", Sam Phillips was white. When he started recording rock and roll he said that if he could find a white guy who could sing that type of music and move the way the black guys he was recording could, then he'd make a fortune. A few years later, he was recording Elvis and did, indeed, make a fortune.

But, again, he genuinely loved the music. He wasn't black, but he grew up picking cotton in fields alongside predominantly black workers and from this he developed a deep love of the singing. From there he, like Elvis, became active on the black club scene.

Sure, he said that he would require a white singer in order to make a fortune from rock and roll, but is that racism, or is it a simple acknowledgement of the racism of the times? Is two white guys who love rock and roll, and have been part of the black music scene since they were children, making rock and roll records them perverting black music, or just making music that they love?

As far as commercialism goes, I can't see how that's a race issue at all. Had it been the case that black people playing white music would have made lots of money, you can bet your farm that that's what the record labels would have been churning out.

The only issues of race I see in this whole thing, are the racist attitudes of the time, which existed perfectly well without the music industry. In fact, as I said earlier, I think that the acknowledgement and appreciation of black music can only have helped to reduce racism. Not a great deal, and certainly not quickly, but as a small part of the process. Once something becomes normal and everyday, the less "other" it becomes.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't think that was the consensus of the discussion. The appropriation that occurs is when the music industry chooses to sign and promote white artists performing a style that is otherwise dominated by black artists - Elvis being the classic example. There's a difference between appreciation and appropriation.

So....using the example of hip-hop, Eminem is appropriating black music, as most hip-hop artists are black, even though Eminem is one of the few white rappers who charts and only got his break because of heavy endorsement from Dr. Dre?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't know. I just read on there that the "sociological definition" of racism is quite different from the colloquial, legal and dictionary definitions.
According to "some sociologists", racial bigotry is apparently not racist when the racial bigots are part of the oppressed racial minority. Maybe ceepolk is brown her/him/itself?

But ceepolk is neither Arabic nor a Muslim. So she can, indeed, be racist towards Arabs and discriminatory towards Muslims.

 

[s_pepys]

So....using the example of hip-hop, Eminem is appropriating black music, as most hip-hop artists are black, even though Eminem is one of the few white rappers who charts and only got his break because of heavy endorsement from Dr. Dre?

or, say, the use of western pop styles in bhangra and vice-versa. or chinese electropop. musicians will be influenced by other music no matter where its from.

maybe elvis helped with the advancement of equality in the us?

(still cant stand clapton though)

 

[qwints]

The only issues of race I see in this whole thing, are the racist attitudes of the time, which existed perfectly well without the music industry. In fact, as I said earlier, I think that the acknowledgement and appreciation of black music can only have helped to reduce racism. Not a great deal, and certainly not quickly, but as a small part of the process. Once something becomes normal and everyday, the less "other" it becomes.

So....using the example of hip-hop, Eminem is appropriating black music, as most hip-hop artists are black, even though Eminem is one of the few white rappers who charts and only got his break because of heavy endorsement from Dr. Dre?

The key point about appropriating a cultures is that it comes from those larger systemic injustices. I think you see the problem - Elvis got opportunities that other artists didn't because of his race. I'd speculate that most of the mainstream audience didn't connect Elvis's work with the other artists who inspired him (though I could very well be wrong).

In other words, it's not that the music industry or Elvis, individually, were the genesis of racism, but they operated in a racist system and received advantages because of it. We can talk about how they unjustly benefited from a racist system without condemning them.

I don't know enough about Eminem to intelligently comment, but if he received exposure or commercial success that other's didn't because of his race, then that would be a problem worth discussing.

 

[luchog]

Vindictus, right?

Yes, actually. Interestingly, the original game (Vindictus is a prequel game for Mabinogi Fantasy Life, and the original Korean name was Mabinogi: Heroes) had none of the chainmail bikini problem; but then it didn't have the nifty graphics or physics engine that Vindi does. You play?

I've just googled that thread, and it seems that the received wisdom is that if you're white and you listen to hip-hop, then you're appropriating another culture, which is colonialism and therefore evil.

Well, that's good to know.

But then they also talk about Elvis "stealing" his songs from black people. So if music derived from black origins isn't allowed, either, then that means that white people can't listen to any rock or metal, either. Dance music is out, as well, that would mean.

Well, Rock and Roll is derived from Blues (at it's core, Rock and Roll is Blues as played by a Country music combo), which is derived from a mix of African folk music combined with American Gospel music, which was white music with its origins in the various Christian religious music traditions of the UK. But of course that doesn't count, since it was an oppressed people appropriating the music of their oppressors.

But yeah, that pretty much eliminates any form of music that derives from Blues or Jazz; which only leaves Country and Western, Bluegrass, Folk, Classical and similar instrumental, some forms of Electronica, and church music.

So, folk it is. As long as it's not American folk, that is. Coz, you know, black people again.

Actually, the majority of American folk is derived from the music of Irish and Scottish immigrants; not from African slaves.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The key point about appropriating a cultures is that it comes from those larger systemic injustices. I think you see the problem - Elvis got opportunities that other artists didn't because of his race.

I'm not sure how this is appropriating a culture, though.

I'd speculate that most of the mainstream audience didn't connect Elvis's work with the other artists who inspired him (though I could very well be wrong).

Perhaps but, as I said above, whenever he was asked about his music, Elvis always said that he was just doing what black people had been doing for years before he started. So anyone who had read or listened to any interview with Elvis could hardly fail to know that. And it's not like people could have been unaware that black people made rock and roll, too, given that, for example, Chuck Berry was also in the charts at the same time.

In other words, it's not that the music industry or Elvis, individually, were the genesis of racism, but they operated in a racist system and received advantages because of it. We can talk about how they unjustly benefited from a racist system without condemning them.

We certainly can. This would, however, be a different thing to "appropriating" black music or, indeed, "colonialism".

I don't know enough about Eminem to intelligently comment, but if he received exposure or commercial success that other's didn't because of his race, then that would be a problem worth discussing.

Well, I don't think you can say that there's a shortage of successful black rappers. What you said was that appropriation was "when the music industry chooses to sign and promote white artists performing a style that is otherwise dominated by black artists". Rap and hip-hop are dominated by black artists. Eminem is white. By your definition, the very fact that Eminem has a record deal is appropriation.

 

[WillyWonka]

I don't know enough about Eminem to intelligently comment, but if he received exposure or commercial success that other's didn't because of his race, then that would be a problem worth discussing.

Why is it a problem? The fact is that some people will win and other won't. The fact that Eminem is not in a wheelchair, does it make this an ableist problem? PSY did not get his success because he is white, or not.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Yes, actually. Interestingly, the original game (Vindictus is a prequel game for Mabinogi Fantasy Life, and the original Korean name was Mabinogi: Heroes) had none of the chainmail bikini problem; but then it didn't have the nifty graphics or physics engine that Vindi does. You play?

I did for quite a while, and got attached to my Staff Evie. But one day I just didn't log in. Then, a week later, I still hadn't logged in. About a month later I did log back in, but found the grinding too much.

I think the combat is excellent, I love the graphics, I like the abilities, I like the crafting and the market, and I think that the Ship Graveyard is very, very cool. However, it's very repetitive. Each stage has around 3 maps, spread out over 10-20 levels. And then you have to grind through them. And the grinding gets worse and worse and worse, and the rewards get less and less and less. I found that I was having far more fun just running around the towns, trading things on the marketplace, designing outfits, and dying and binding clothes to make the outfits than I was actually playing the game. Seemed like a waste of my time, really.

Which is a shame, as I think that in many ways it's by far the best MMORPG I've ever come across. Yet I've not even ever seen Vella in action, despite the update with her being months ago.

 

[Stout]

Some already do that - I can think of two decidedly queer and gender-focused developers offhand, Auntie Pixelante and Christine Love. There are many talented female developers and academics out there, no question.

But those two and others are decidedly indie and don't have the exposure to make a dent in the mainstream. The millions who play only tier-one AAA games like Call Of Duty or Halo, you know the games that are advertised on TV? They'll never know about obscure indie stuff, and that's why it should always be allowed to talk about any problems you see. That way, the big games that actually are progressive could receive the dollar vote you speak of.

That was cool, I really like the lesbian bondage game and if that's what women want to see more of in mainstream games, hey who am I to stand in the way?

So we have millions of players and let's just assume for a moment that a significant percentage of those millions are women who are unhappy with the way female characters are portrayed in those big games. Suppose, instead of wasting their time being bored to death with Anita Sarkinsen's 25 minute video, they took five minutes to write to the big game corporations telling them that

I really like the idea of { big game } as well as what I've seen of the graphics however I refuse to buy it because, as a woman, I feel the portrayal of female characters is more of a caricature than anything I can realistically relate to using as an avatar.

You say the times are a'changin, maybe this is already happening.

 

[qwints]

What you said was that appropriation was "when the music industry chooses to sign and promote white artists performing a style that is otherwise dominated by black artists". Rap and hip-hop are dominated by black artists. Eminem is white. By your definition, the very fact that Eminem has a record deal is appropriation.

You're right. My definition should be amended to include the exclusion of the black artists.

The fact is that some people will win and other won't.

But we can talk about the ways in which it's not a level playing field rather than just throw up our hands and say, well someone had to get the record deal.

 

[luchog]

But how do you have an openly homosexual character in a game, unless its a game with overt sexual content? I guess, in simpler terms, how can you tell Mario and Luigi aren't gay?

Many RPG and adventure games have romance subplots; and in mainstream industry games, these are almost without exception heterosexual. The extremely rare exceptions that I've seen are lesbian, and typically played up for a heterosexual male audience. I don't recall having seen or heard of any gay romance subplots.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

You're right. My definition should be amended to include the exclusion of the black artists.

In which case, it doesn't apply to Elvis.

 

[luchog]

Whatever issue is being discussed. As I explained a while ago, I'm a sentimentalist, and I think you come to your ethical beliefs through thinking about your moral intuitions a.k.a your emotional reactions. I don't believe you can logically derive ethics from first principles as someone like Kant believed.

Taken to its logical conclusion, that's just garden variety moral relativism. How do you account for people with different emotional reactions aka "moral intuitions" developing radically different morals and ethics? Are theirs any more or less valid than yours, since they deeply feel that they're right? What about people who have no "moral intuitions" beyond immediate self-gratification, aka Antisocial/Dissocial Personality Disorder? What about the various cultural and idiosyncratic influences on emotional judgement affecting moral values? What about other psychiatric or psychological "dysfunctions", which some SJWs claim are simply marginalized non-mainstream worldviews? What about situational emotional judgements affecting "moral intuitions"?

How do you differentiate, if you differentiate, "valid" emotional judgements such as Peace, Love, and Understanding; and "invalid" emotional judgements such as xenophobia, ethno-centrism, and exclusionism?

How can such a whimsical, ephemeral, idiosyncratic, situational standard form a universal moral foundation better than an objective, rational standard?

Emotions have their place; but ultimately they're nothing more than shifting sand and water. You have to add a whole lot of rational cement to make them even remotely useful for building on.

 

[Horatius]

I don't recall having seen or heard of any gay romance subplots.

Mass Effect 3.

Although, to be honest, I just went Gay because I wanted him to stop whining about his Dead Gay Husband.

 

[theprestige]

We can talk about how they unjustly benefited from a racist system without condemning them.

We certainly can.

So help me understand: What is the practical benefit of such a discussion?