2 questions re 1120 'Missing bodies' from WTC 1&2 & media complicity in mass murder

In your first pictures, what would you estimate is the thickness of those alleged concrete chunks?

Ya think maybe they trucked it in afterwards to stage photos, to cover up that all the concrete was Pulverized In Mid-Air?

Why, in your Expert Opinion, was all the concrete pulverized? Was it necessary to the Controlled Demolition, or was it inadvertent? Maybe, the Conspiracy, not having tested a previously unknown and unused Silent Super Hi-Explosive, underestimated its incredible power? Or was it perhaps gratuitous, an "in your face" kind of thing done to taunt the truthers who the Conspiracy knew would be investigating afterward?
 
Redwood, what would you estimate is the thickness of those alleged concrete chunks in your first pictures?
 
Redwood, what would you estimate is the thickness of those alleged concrete chunks in your first pictures?
It is from the basement, parking lot, etc.

This is about missing bodies, which were not missing, they were destroyed, murdered by 19 terrorists on 911. What is your point? Will you get to in in less than 10 years? No

You got no point, no goal, no clue.
 
Redwood, what would you estimate is the thickness of those alleged concrete chunks in your first pictures?

What's your point? Is it too thick, or too thin? Is "too thick concrete" the Smoking Gun? How does this fit into the Vast Conspiracy? What does this have to do with concrete being "dustified"?
 
No, actually. The absence of broken concrete floors or even sizable chunks (i.e., larger than fist size) in the debris pile suggests that most of the concrete was pulverized. Are you trying to rebunk something that has been common knowledge since the very event?

The claim was "pulverised to dust", not pulverised to fist-sized or gravel-sized.

In other words, you shifted the goalposts to protect Jbui's position.

Bulk pulverisation (~80%) to that level is physically impossible, as comminuting the sand and aggregate in the concrete would require crushing between larger pieces. The probablility of this happening as the average particle size reduces decreases exponentially (asymptotically? whatever). Only a small percentage of the gravel particles will be reduced below their original size, and virtually none of the sand particles because by that stage there aren't enough large pieces to do the job.

So you get what we see in the GZ photos. Sandy/gravelly stuff with plenty of pebble and rock-sized pieces within it.

concreteremains1.jpg
 
Jbui, you seem to have missed this post:

What do you think is the most probable scenario:
  1. ALL body parts of victims caught in the plane crashes were ejected the next second, and NONE remained within the towers up until the collapses started
  2. MOST body parts of victims caught in the plane crashes were ejected the next second, and only A FEW remained within the towers up until the collapses started
  3. SOME body parts of victims caught in the plane crashes were ejected the next second, and SOME remained within the towers up until the collapses started
  4. Only A FEW body parts of victims caught in the plane crashes were ejected the next second, and MOST remained within the towers up until the collapses started
  5. NONE of the body parts of victims caught in the plane crashes were ejected the next second, and ALL remained within the towers up until the collapses started
  • Provide reasons!

My answer is: 2. MOST body parts severed by the plane crashes remained within the towers until the collapses started, and only A FEW were ejected roughly in the direction that the planes were moving.
Reason: Ony few plane parts, mostly heavy parts, were ejected, almost all of their mass remained with the towers. There is no reason why it should have been different with the bodies.
I agree with you on this, most of the bodies remained in the towers until the collapse. And when that firs floor collapsed, there was not much air pressure, since windows and walls were blown out and collapse speed started from 0. So there is no force ejecting these people anywhere.
 
I agree with you on this, most of the bodies remained in the towers until the collapse. And when that firs floor collapsed, there was not much air pressure, since windows and walls were blown out and collapse speed started from 0. So there is no force ejecting these people anywhere.
Very wrong. You do know all the air on every floor has to move so the floors can collapse down. How fast was the top part traveling when it impacted the floor below.
 
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The claim was "pulverised to dust", not pulverised to fist-sized or gravel-sized.

In other words, you shifted the goalposts to protect Jbui's position.

Bulk pulverisation (~80%) to that level is physically impossible, as comminuting the sand and aggregate in the concrete would require crushing between larger pieces. The probablility of this happening as the average particle size reduces decreases exponentially (asymptotically? whatever). Only a small percentage of the gravel particles will be reduced below their original size, and virtually none of the sand particles because by that stage there aren't enough large pieces to do the job.

So you get what we see in the GZ photos. Sandy/gravelly stuff with plenty of pebble and rock-sized pieces within it.

[qimg]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/concreteremains1.jpg[/qimg]
In the picture we see WTC dust after rain, and the point here is not wheter there was WTC dust or not - we all agree that lower manhattan was covered with WTC dust. We also agree that concrete was turned into dust/fine particles, since it was full of iron microspheres, whic debunkers claim was from the cement. Here's USGS analysis of WTC - which includes Concrete as a major component. http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/508OF05-1165.html

I do not disagree that there are parts of the concrete that did not turn into dust. But the end results of the concrete are not "as expected" they were unprecedent. The building turned into thick dust in mid air while accelerating with 0,7G and shooting itself in 200m radius.

Anyways we have 13 pages of debate, but no explanation for tiny human pieces spread evenly up to 200m distance of the towers. We have explanation for some 100 people being crushed in the planes, and descending with the gravity down to the footprint.

We need:
mechanism for some 1300 people to be turned to small pieces
mechanism for tiny human piece to fly 100-200m after being first blasted into tiny pieces.
We have one: Explosion - and we have a forum full of people who deny this real life explanation, and derive theories from Columbia shuttle disaster etc. to avoid admitting to the only explanation which does both blow up people and throw the pieces 100-200m distance.

...And of course we have that one guy who used the example of a guy in a suicide vest who blew himself in pieces all around the street as an example that explosives do not blow people in pieces. - A proud member of the Debunker community.
 
Anyways we have 13 pages of debate,

Where? Certainly not this thread unless your definition of debate is different then the rest of the worlds.

The WTC towers were a huge grinder with enormous amounts of air that got out of the way of the solid at a very high rate of speed. Do you know what that translates too. I suspect you do but, it's inconvenient for you.

BTW: Some of those unidentified "fragments" were a friend of mine.

Why do you refuse to get to the point and tell us what actually happened?
 
Reading the OP I had a gut feeling that he was right, but it was just gas prior to a wet, stinky fart.

In the picture we see WTC dust after rain, and the point here is not wheter there was WTC dust or not - we all agree that lower manhattan was covered with WTC dust. We also agree that concrete was turned into dust/fine particles, since it was full of iron microspheres, whic debunkers claim was from the cement. Here's USGS analysis of WTC - which includes Concrete as a major component. http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/508OF05-1165.html

I do not disagree that there are parts of the concrete that did not turn into dust. But the end results of the concrete are not "as expected" they were unprecedent. The building turned into thick dust in mid air while accelerating with 0,7G and shooting itself in 200m radius.

Anyways we have 13 pages of debate, but no explanation for tiny human pieces spread evenly up to 200m distance of the towers. We have explanation for some 100 people being crushed in the planes, and descending with the gravity down to the footprint.

We need:
mechanism for some 1300 people to be turned to small pieces
mechanism for tiny human piece to fly 100-200m after being first blasted into tiny pieces.
We have one: Explosion - and we have a forum full of people who deny this real life explanation, and derive theories from Columbia shuttle disaster etc. to avoid admitting to the only explanation which does both blow up people and throw the pieces 100-200m distance.

...And of course we have that one guy who used the example of a guy in a suicide vest who blew himself in pieces all around the street as an example that explosives do not blow people in pieces. - A proud member of the Debunker community.
How predictable: The Black Knight stares at his arms and legs scattered on the ground, and declares victory.
 
In the picture we see WTC dust after rain, and the point here is not wheter there was WTC dust or not - we all agree that lower manhattan was covered with WTC dust. We also agree that concrete was turned into dust/fine particles, since it was full of iron microspheres, whic debunkers claim was from the cement. Here's USGS analysis of WTC - which includes Concrete as a major component. http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/508OF05-1165.html

I do not disagree that there are parts of the concrete that did not turn into dust. But the end results of the concrete are not "as expected" they were unprecedent. The building turned into thick dust in mid air while accelerating with 0,7G and shooting itself in 200m radius.

Anyways we have 13 pages of debate, but no explanation for tiny human pieces spread evenly up to 200m distance of the towers. We have explanation for some 100 people being crushed in the planes, and descending with the gravity down to the footprint.

We need:
mechanism for some 1300 people to be turned to small pieces
mechanism for tiny human piece to fly 100-200m after being first blasted into tiny pieces.
We have one: Explosion - and we have a forum full of people who deny this real life explanation, and derive theories from Columbia shuttle disaster etc. to avoid admitting to the only explanation which does both blow up people and throw the pieces 100-200m distance.

...And of course we have that one guy who used the example of a guy in a suicide vest who blew himself in pieces all around the street as an example that explosives do not blow people in pieces. - A proud member of the Debunker community.

:boggled::eye-poppi:eek::jaw-dropp

Whose choice of words is "evenly"? Is that an accurate use of the word? Or do you really mean "in all directions"? Addressing a point you made just previously, why do you think only the first floor being collapsed upon is relevant to the exclusion of others? What about the pressure on the second? Then the third (and so on)?

As for "mechanism for some 1300 people to be turned to small pieces", what do you think the crushing pressure of hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete, steel, etc is? Do you honestly think the collapsing building wouldn't act as a very effective meat grinder? If not, why not?

As for "mechanism for tiny human piece to fly 100-200m after being first blasted into tiny pieces", what's wrong with air pressure from the collapsing building? Or are you positing that air pressure ejection is the only way anything would've been found anywhere other than directly at the former base of the towers? And you do recall the mushroom-shape of dust, debris, etc that hung in the air immediately after the collapse? Is there any particular reason that this debris cloud couldn't or wouldn't contain smushed human remains or visually cover the fall of larger bits?

You're asserting without support; 'truth' by incomprehension.

Fitz
 
I agree with you on this, most of the bodies remained in the towers until the collapse. And when that firs floor collapsed, there was not much air pressure, since windows and walls were blown out and collapse speed started from 0. So there is no force ejecting these people anywhere.

Let us do a quick calculation on a simple model:

Let us assume that the first floor to collapse did so by coming down vertically, at 0.7g, until it hit the floor below.

Each story was 12 feet high. Subtracting 4 inches for the thickness of the concrete slabs plus a bit for ceilings, floor covers, office contents, that will work out to a drop distance of 3.5 meters (being European, I prefer metric).

0.7g is 6.8635 m/s2
Velocity after moving s=3.5 m at a=6.8635 m/s2, from rest, is
v(3.5 m) = SQRT(2*a*s) = 6,93 m/s.
And this took
t(3.5 m) = SQRT(2*s/a) = 1,01 s.
Let's make that 1 s even ;)

The story, from floor to metal deck, has an volume of 63*63*3.5 meters filled mostly with air and movable objects. That's 13,891.5 m3 of air, which get blown mostly out the windows (some can escape up and down the core shafts, giving rise to pressure pulses in other stories). Window openings are 2/3 of the width of the facades (column width is close to 1/3 column distance center to center) - 63*4*2/3 = 168 meters - and 2,34 meters high (vertical distance between spandrels), so air can escape through a maximum of 393.12 m2 of openings.
Of course, openings get smaller as the floor collapses - from 393.12 m2 to 0. I'll ignore that effect for the moment.

So 13,891.5 m3 of air are escaping through 393.12 m2 of openings within 1 s of time - that should work out to an average air speed of over 35 m/s = 127 km/s = 79.5 mph (just divide the two numbers).
This is ignoring that openings get smaller as the floor collapses. Near the end of that second, with collapse velocity the highest and openings the smallest, nozzle velocities will be MUCH higher than that.

Starting from a height of ca. 300 meter (South Tower; North Tower higher), objects of suitable size should be able to travel some distance when blown out with such high winds.


On the second floor and all that follow, air will escape a lot faster (although more victims from the plane crashes were probably above the first collapsed floor than below - a bit more tricky to assess collapse velocity of the floors above relative to the collapses zone where floors are piling up).


ETA:

We need:
mechanism for some 1300 people to be turned to small pieces

We need two mechanisms for the dismemberment of people: One that accounts for body parts that were ejected during the collapse. You already agreed that the plane crashes can easily account for more than 100 victims being shred to suitable pieces. And another that accounts for those bodies not identified at all. That one is easy, too: They all fell from a hieght of 300 or higher, and had an average of 10-12 floors collapsing down on them, in a chaotic avalanche of 300,000 tons of steel and concrete per tower. And then their remains were subjected to weeks and months of fires, then rain, possibly episodes of acidic considtions etc., all of which degrade body tissue to an extent that can make it unrecognizable or unidentifyable.
mechanism for tiny human piece to fly 100-200m after being first blasted into tiny pieces.
You seriously underestimate air pressure and air speeds as floors 63x63 meters wide collapse. See above.
We have one: Explosion
We have two. You incorrect one, and the reality I just described.
 
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Where? Certainly not this thread unless your definition of debate is different then the rest of the worlds.

The WTC towers were a huge grinder with enormous amounts of air that got out of the way of the solid at a very high rate of speed. Do you know what that translates too. I suspect you do but, it's inconvenient for you.

BTW: Some of those unidentified "fragments" were a friend of mine.

Why do you refuse to get to the point and tell us what actually happened?
Air pressure from the building accounts to 10-20m flight. And that would require the body to be preground to tiny bits. Otherwise we would need it first to stay inside to be pinned and fall down to get ground up.

If you want to experiment, climb to the roof of a tall building, put e.g. piece of meat with some bones in it on the edge, drop a concrete tile on it, and measure if you can get those pieces flying 200m. You can apply free fall, no need to take the steel superstructure into account.

I'm very sorry for your loss, I'm very sorry for all the lives lost due to war on terror. Your friend goes to same category with +1.000.000 other victims.

What Actually happened? do you want a 1000 page version or 50 word version?
 
Air pressure from the building accounts to 10-20m flight.

Could you show your math (or a source of this)? Hint: you cant because there are too many variables in the object being ejected.

It would go a long way in your credibility if you'd stop pulling these "facts" out of your arse.

Stop thinking we're that stupid. It insulting.
 
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Concepts obvious to everyone but truthers

An explosion doesn't explain anything if there was no explosion.

The presence of a lot of dust doesn't mean that everything turned to dust..

Gravitational potential energy,or, more specifically, that the amount of energy from the falling mass of the buildings dwarfs the amount of energy available from any conceivable emplacement of explosives.

The collision of a large airplane flying at ~500 mph into a skyscraper was unprecedented, therefore a lot of what happened afterward was unprecedented.

That truthers are a very small group of ignorant, delusional idiots.
 
The human body is magnitudes weaker than concrete. Once the bodies are pulverized, they are debris along with the walls, chairs, desks, computers, and everything else in the buildings. If debris is scattered 600 feet, it would be odd if there weren't pieces of victims mixed in.
 
The human body is magnitudes weaker than concrete. Once the bodies are pulverized, they are debris along with the walls, chairs, desks, computers, and everything else in the buildings. If debris is scattered 600 feet, it would be odd if there weren't pieces of victims mixed in.
So why then you have intact bodies of people who jumped from WTC? Only guts were spilled and bones crushed, but the rest was in one piece and easily identifiable.
 

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