Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

I agree. And there is no clear evidence GZ tried to detain anyone, is there ?

Of course there is. There's the fact that he was chasing him in the first place and obviously eventually found him. There's the fact that Witness 8 heard Trayvon yell "get off me". There's the fact that other witnesses heard them arguing before a fight started. There's the fact that George lied to the police afterwards.

I don't think it's particularly relevant, but where did he admit this ?

It's not relevant? Regardless, he told Hannity that he always carried his gun except for work. Ergo, he carried it while on patrol. Which is crazy.

I agree.

Yep.

 

[johnny karate]

Your prediction record isn't very good in this thread already.

And yet this one holds true.

What would I be curious about ? According to you, inferring any impropriety in MOMs actions is irrational. I'm not curious, I think he phrased things explicitly so she could answer a certain way. Pretty sure I already stated that earlier in the thread.

I never claimed inferring impropriety in O'Mara's actions is irrational.

What I said was that flat-out stating O'Mara lied at the bond hearing at the expense of his client is irrational.

And it is.

Your continued ducking of that issue only proves my point.

Fine, or crump, sybrina fulton et all just made up that she was at the hospital themselves. Otherwise I assume they believe she was their because that's what she appears to have told them:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html
In fact, she couldn't even go to his wake she was so sick. Her mother had to take her to the hospital. She spent the night in the hospital. She is traumatized beyond anything you could imagine.

Benjamin Crump and Sybrina Fulton interview with Matt Lauer on the Today Show, March 21, 2012
Ms. FULTON: Yes, it can. She was distraught because of the situation that happened with Trayvon and that--the fact that she was on the phone with him when he--when the incident occurred--right before the incident occurred. So she was very distraught. She had to go to the hospital. She was hospitalized. She also mentioned to us that she had feelings for Trayvon, so it hurt her dearly to know that he has passed away.

That other people believe DeeDee was at the hospital is not proof she lied.

A lot of people believe Shellie Zimmerman had the money to assist in her husband's legal costs. Is that proof that she lied?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You didn't specify which lies. You cite one lie, which is about something you admit (or weaselly admit) wasn't material, but then you suggest other lies will come out.

I'm glad that you can instantly assimilate and decide on all the evidence without any reflection. But I haven't decided if I think the lie about the hospital is material yet. That's why I said may.

And whether I listed what other things I think may be lies is not relevant to you misrepresenting my position.

You insinuate that if there are enough lies, then she shouldn't be believed (or else why would the state not choose to use her?) which is a standard you clearly don't hold George to.

Disbelieving parts of GZ story is not the same as proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he murdered TM.

He's free to lie about things such as the location of the fight, the dialogue that Trayvon used, and whether or not he immediately fell after a single punch because memory is unreliable and other excuses. I'm just calling you out on your double standard.

All that should matter is whether GZ reasonably believed he was in danger of great bodily injury or death when TM was on top of him. If a reasonable person would believe that, the jury should find him not guilty.

 

[Giz]

People should also be able to walk home from the store without being accosted by an armed and overzealous wannabe cop.



And defending yourself against an aggressive stranger following you home shouldn't be a death sentence.

Absolutely. And if all the prosecution had to do was show a reasonable probability then they might have a good chance. Having to go beyond reasonable doubt though... That might be a stretch (based on what is in the public domain so far)

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/03/05/dee-dee-did-not-lie-or-commit-perjury-in-zimmerman-case/

Nevertheless, let us assume for the sake of argument that she did lie.

As I said in response to a comment by Unabogie,

I think you are being way too literal.

Lying is lying, by definition, but there is an unlimited number of reasons why people lie.

Intentionally lying to conceal the existence of more than a $100,000 in cash from the court during a bail hearing is, by any standard one might choose to apply, a far more serious matter than lying because you did not want to admit that you were too upset to attend a funeral.
I do not believe the prosecution is the least bit worried about this turn of events.

I see Leatherman pretends to know why she lied (even though he thinks she didn't).

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Of course there is. There's the fact that he was chasing him in the first place and obviously eventually found him.

Unless, of course, TM found GZ instead.

There's the fact that Witness 8 heard Trayvon yell "get off me".

BDLR: OK, what could you hear?
Dee Dee: Like a little ‘get off’ some stuff…
BDLR: You heard ‘get off’?
Dee Dee: Like a little ‘Get off’ [unintelligible]…
BDLR: Could you tell who was saying that?
Dee Dee: I couldn’ know Trayvon.
BDLR: I’m sorry.
Dee Dee: I couldn’t hear Trayvon…Trayvon.

How in the world did you get from that to:Witness 8 heard Trayvon yell "get off me" ?

There's the fact that other witnesses heard them arguing before a fight started.

Witnesses heard loud voices. That proves someone chased someone else because ______ ???

There's the fact that George lied to the police afterwards.

So you claim. And that proves he chased TM becuase ________ ?

It's not relevant? Regardless, he told Hannity that he always carried his gun except for work. Ergo, he carried it while on patrol. Which is crazy.

I still don't see how that's relevant.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It's not material. At all.

And I predict you will continue being non-commital on this point, while never once making an argument as to how it could be material.

wrong (again).

Here is an argument about why it is material:
“Misrepresentations which tend to bolster the credibility of a witness, whether successful or not, are regarded as material for purposes of supporting a perjury conviction. Fields v. State, 114 So. 317, at 318.”

If it wasn't material, I would like you to explain why you think BDLR was asking her about it in a deposition ? Just chit-chatting ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I never claimed inferring impropriety in O'Mara's actions is irrational.

What I said was that flat-out stating O'Mara lied at the bond hearing at the expense of his client is irrational.

And it is.

Your continued ducking of that issue only proves my point.

What am I ducking about it ?

MOM even says when questing SZ:

Q. I have discussed with you the pending motion to have your husband George
declared indigent for cost, have I not?
A. Yes, you have.

GZ says he told MOM about the 37k transfers. I don't find it irrational to consider MOM lied about remembering that conversation and was going on to file indigence. If he successfully files unchallenged it might have been a huge benefit to GZ. Maybe they thought it was a worth trying.

You implied earlier that MOM was lying about the strength of his case, did you not ?

That other people believe DeeDee was at the hospital is not proof she lied.

No, it's not proof. It's simply evidence. You can keep your blinders on and ignore it if you want.

A lot of people believe Shellie Zimmerman had the money to assist in her husband's legal costs. Is that proof that she lied?

Nope, what other people think hasnothing to do with SZ perjury.

 

[Unabogie]

http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/03/05/dee-dee-did-not-lie-or-commit-perjury-in-zimmerman-case/

I see Leatherman pretends to know why she lied (even though he thinks she didn't).

I agree with you there, but look at me, I'm famous now!

 

[johnny karate]

Here is an argument about why it is material:
“Misrepresentations which tend to bolster the credibility of a witness, whether successful or not, are regarded as material for purposes of supporting a perjury conviction. Fields v. State, 114 So. 317, at 318.”

Exactly how is saying she went to the hospital rather than Martin's funeral an attempt for DeeDee to bolster her credibility as a witness?

If it wasn't material, I would like you to explain why you think BDLR was asking her about it in a deposition ? Just chit-chatting ?

Why would I have to explain it? Are you under the impression that every single question a witness is asked is automatically rendered material to the outcome of the trial?

 

[This is The End]

I don't see that anyone has linked to this specific article yet:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/zimmerman-stuns-court-waives-trayvon-martin-case/story?id=18656568

George Zimmerman's attorneys stunned court observers today by deciding to skip a "Stand Your Ground" hearing slated for April that might have led to a dismissal of the charges in the shooting death of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin.

Under Florida's Stand Your Ground law, Zimmerman is entitled to immunity and if he can prove he shot and killed Martin Feb. 26, 2012 self defense. If self defense was determined, all criminal proceedings would have immediately stopped, and Zimmerman would have walked free.

But Zimmerman's legal team also risked the possibility that the judge would reject the motion and the hearing would give prosecutors an opportunity to pick apart Zimmerman's testimony.

So a couple weeks ago the defense claimed they pretty much burned through the massive amount of donations, and now they waive the immunity hearing? Weird stuff.

Well, in fairness to us girls, there have been a lot of tea parties and ballet recitals to attend, so we haven't had a whole lot of time to resolve things.

But thank you for your helpful and informative post.

As much as I also find kedo1981 's post to be rude, I would have to concede that kedo1981 might be much closer to guessing the odds of a plea deal happening in the next 2 months than we have been.

Especially in light of today's news.

 

[johnny karate]

What am I ducking about it ?

MOM even says when questing SZ:

Q. I have discussed with you the pending motion to have your husband George
declared indigent for cost, have I not?
A. Yes, you have.

GZ says he told MOM about the 37k transfers. I don't find it irrational to consider MOM lied about remembering that conversation and was going on to file indigence. If he successfully files unchallenged it might have been a huge benefit to GZ. Maybe they thought it was a worth trying.

Who is "they"? And keep in mind, this whole thing started because of your unwillingness to believe that Zimmerman himself took part in the bond hearing deception.

You implied earlier that MOM was lying about the strength of his case, did you not ?

If O'Mara lied about that, it was a lie in service of his client, and in a circumstance in which he wouldn't be subject to disbarment and criminal charges. Perfectly plausible.

You, however, claimed O'Mara risked disbarment and criminal charges to lie at the expense of his client, who still retains O'Mara as a lawyer despite being aware of that lie and now suffering the consequences of it. Totally irrational.

No, it's not proof. It's simply evidence. You can keep your blinders on and ignore it if you want.

Nope, what other people think hasnothing to do with SZ perjury.

I didn't say anything about perjury.

If other people believe Shellie Zimmerman had the financial means to assist in her husband's legal costs, is that evidence that she lied?

 

[johnny karate]

So a couple weeks ago the defense claimed they pretty much burned through the massive amount of donations, and now they waive the immunity hearing? Weird stuff.

My guess is that O'Mara wants to keep his client off the stand.

 

[Unabogie]

wrong (again).

Here is an argument about why it is material:
“Misrepresentations which tend to bolster the credibility of a witness, whether successful or not, are regarded as material for purposes of supporting a perjury conviction. Fields v. State, 114 So. 317, at 318.”

If it wasn't material, I would like you to explain why you think BDLR was asking her about it in a deposition ? Just chit-chatting ?

You haven't explained how it is material. It doesn't pertain to any aspect of the murder of Trayvon Martin, does it?

Here is her entire interview with Mr. Crump:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iHSrnGPs4Qptsla_EMMR-NdhioDTHQAtAExH1OgackU/edit?pli=1

The material facts that she discusses are as follows:

1. She was on the phone with Trayvon when George started following him. This we know is true and was confirmed by the phone records.
2. She heard them arguing. This is corroborated by other witnesses who also heard them arguing.
3. The phone went dead at some point, early on in the scuffle. This is corroborated by the location of the phone and the flashlight, as well as another witness who saw them in that vicinity as they were arguing, as well as the location of the body.
4. George yelled "what are you doing around here". This is something I'd like to see him asked since the last time he was questioned the police hadn't yet interviewed Witness 8. This is where her credibility comes into play.

So of the four main facts she has asserted, 3 of the 4 are corroborated by other evidence and the fourth is her word against George's. Can you explain where the fact that she didn't go to the hospital is material to the other 4 and why this makes her the star witness for the state?

I think that by the time she takes the stand, so much of the rest of her story will be corroborated that impeaching her over this lie won't make too much difference. As I wrote on Leatherman's blog, it's not good for the SA at all, no question. But that doesn't make it material or even indicative of other lies. In fact, her version of events is tracking the other evidence far better than George's, which we've shown over and over does not match the timeline or location of evidence.

Two questions for you:

1. Do you think Martin really did say "You gonna die tonight" and "You got a problem, homie?"
2. Do you think George really did say "what are you doing around here?"

 

[Unabogie]

I don't see that anyone has linked to this specific article yet:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/zimmerman-stuns-court-waives-trayvon-martin-case/story?id=18656568

So a couple weeks ago the defense claimed they pretty much burned through the massive amount of donations, and now they waive the immunity hearing? Weird stuff.

One thing to note is that if Witness 8's lying about missing Trayvon's funeral to go to a doctor was devastating to the state, then why isn't the defense going ahead with the immunity hearing? Obviously the defense doesn't agree that she's the heart of the case or else they'd plow on through and get their guy out of his ankle bracelet. The fact that they are now telling CNN that they want George to be "vindicated by a jury of his peers" exposes their weak hand. Their only hope is to convince a jury of what they realize they can't convince the judge.

 

[Mumbles]

Haven’t you girls resolved this yet? Jeez
If Zimmerman goes in front of a jury there is a good chance he’ll walk.
And then what happens, outrage and riots.
I suggest you people make print outs of your discourse on this thread to show the rioters so they won’t burn your house down.
The defense will do everything in it’s power to disqualify black juries.
Which will lead to nothing but outrage and claims of unfairness on both ends.
I think he’s guilty of some degree of homicide but it’s going to be almost in an imposable for the guy to get a fair trial, way to much taint on the whole thing.
The state has a huge vested interest in preventing LA type riots , so they will have to convict if It goes to trial

So...is there any actual reason to think that there will be riots if Zimmerman is acquitted? As far as I can tell, the main reason Corey was brought onto the case was because of the strictly nonviolent protests, and because the Sanford PD's PR campaign was a disaster.

 

[Dan O.]

My guess is that O'Mara wants to keep his client off the stand.

My guess is that O'Mara wants to keep sucking on that defense fund until it's bone dry. If he goes to the immunity hearing and wins, the case is over and MOM needs to look for another job.

 

[Mumbles]

I thought the "coon" thing had been debunked? And that the dispatch had said "e don't Need you to do that" NOT "stop doing that".

Anyway, even if gz was rash... Why would that matter? Residents should be able to get out of their trucks in there own neighborhood and they should be able to keep an eye on strangers passing through. Neither of those actions should make them responsible for a criminal assault being launched on them.

I've never seen this as a thread on merely legal responsibility, despite the name. I strongly suspect that Zimmerman is ethically culpable for the death of Martin, even if Florida law allows one to chase a person down with a knife and stab them to death, and not be guilty of murder, or to shoot an innocent child who gets caught in the crossfire of a gang shootout and have it ruled "Self Defense"(both of which have happened).

And again, the message is simple - don't freak out because you see someone walking down the street, and you think they aren't hasty enough.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Exactly how is saying she went to the hospital rather than Martin's funeral an attempt for DeeDee to bolster her credibility as a witness?

To play up the whole lie about how she was TMs girlfriend, and she was so distraught she couldn't go to the funeral. Thereby keeping her away from anyone who could ask her questions that she would have to answer and would expose her.

Why would I have to explain it?

You don't have to explain. Your choice to not answer says enough.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I don't see that anyone has linked to this specific article yet:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/zimmerman-stuns-court-waives-trayvon-martin-case/story?id=18656568
weeks ago the defense claimed they pretty much burned through the massive amount of donations, and now they waive the immunity hearing? Weird stuff.

Just to be clear, they didn't waive their right to an immunity hearing, they told the judge they wouldn't be using the date she set aside for the hearing.