• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Merged "Bitter Pill": Major article on US expensive healthcare (Time)

The 695 markets included in the Census Bureau report, taken as a group, had 753,100 private-sector businesses in the field of health care and social assistance as of 2010. They employed 16.54 million workers, who earned an average of $43,200 per year.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2012/10/18/austin-health-care-worker-pay-no-4-in.html

So no, the problem is not healthcare worker pay.

However, 16.5 million healthcare workers in the US means that 5% of the entire population works in the healthcare field?!
 
Last edited:
Did you perhaps mean "didn't?" I don't think too many people think that doctors and nurses are rolling in money, especially considering the loans that doctors have to take out to pay for medical school. They're not getting the big money.

Oops, yes I did. Edited my post.
 
was 48% in 2010

Thanks, I should have been more accurate: "nearly half" instead of "most"

I bet if we try harder we can get over 50% soon, though. Just so long as we don't let everyone have health insurance it doesn't matter what we have to spend.
 
The 695 markets included in the Census Bureau report, taken as a group, had 753,100 private-sector businesses in the field of health care and social assistance as of 2010. They employed 16.54 million workers, who earned an average of $43,200 per year.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2012/10/18/austin-health-care-worker-pay-no-4-in.html

So no, the problem is not healthcare worker pay.

However, 16.5 million healthcare workers in the US means that 5% of the entire population works in the healthcare field?!
That's because home assistants and such make close to minimum wage, the fleecing takes place in hospitals and doctor's offices. It'd be interesting to see the median income, as opposed to average.
 
Evidence?

Daredelvis
Compare the total cost of health care to what the government pays.

Can you do that, or do you want me to hold your hand and walk you through the googling?

For bonus points consider the tax breaks employers and employees get for employer-provided health insurance.
 
That's because home assistants and such make close to minimum wage, the fleecing takes place in hospitals and doctor's offices. It'd be interesting to see the median income, as opposed to average.

I'm not sure if your comment implies that the doctor's are doing the fleecing. According to the OP article, primarily the fleecing comes from the hospitals, either buying doctor's practices and setting certain policies that then cost the consumer extra, or by hospital doctors (as opposed to private-practice doctors) ordering padded procedures and work, or by the hospital chargemaster practices, or their charges for equipment use and other hospital stuff, or also from the drug company markups. And also from government policies that medical lobbyists have gotten to stick, like not allowing a lot of cost-savings ideas to happen.

So beyond the home assistants, it doesn't sound like doctors (at least private practices) are generally fleecing people either. I think THEIR big sin is extra procedures to reduce their own liability in case of later complications with the patient.
 
My employer is nonprofit. There are no shareholders, it doesn't pay dividends. Profits are put into the operation of the company- salaries (still under the local average, BTW, but there's not enough to fix that), community charity (yeah, we supply free care for some), and development (god forbid, we actually try to expand, fix old buildings, upgrade equipment, new software).

TM, all of the items you listed are expenses, and are therefore taken out before profits are declared. The point of the article is that for many non-profit hospitals, they are still posting a profit margin higher than many for profit businesses. We know that they are not paying shareholders (because that is the one thing they cannot do as a non-profit). However, according to the article it seems as most are using these profits to fund expansion, many in areas where the need is questionable.

As an example, here in Indianapolis, I have been seeing ads for St Vincent's new children's hospital. While this seems like a great and noble undertaking at first, it seems a bit redundant when we already have a first class children's hospital, Riley. I don't think Riley is overburdened, considering that a few years ago, I was referred there for a procedure (nominally because it was related to a condition I have had since I was born - and thus a child).


Note: Bob01, who you were responding to, is not Wildcat, who you seem to be arguing against in your post.
 
Some of the debate seems to be misconstruing gross profits with net profits.

Gross profits are the amount of money a business -or hospital- has collected minus actual costs of goods sold. That is, after the costs of tangible items (bandages, medicines, crutches) that were sold to someone is subtracted.

Net profits are what is left after all of the expenses -including utilities, everyone's salaries, etc- are subtracted from the gross profits.

According to the article, most hospitals are making net profits that would turn Hollywood green.
 
The 695 markets included in the Census Bureau report, taken as a group, had 753,100 private-sector businesses in the field of health care and social assistance as of 2010. They employed 16.54 million workers, who earned an average of $43,200 per year.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2012/10/18/austin-health-care-worker-pay-no-4-in.html

So no, the problem is not healthcare worker pay.

However, 16.5 million healthcare workers in the US means that 5% of the entire population works in the healthcare field?!

Healthcare currently makes up ~15% of the GDP, or $2.25 trillion. The GDP per capita of the people working in healthcare is $136,000. Someone is making an absurd amount of money...
 
Healthcare currently makes up ~15% of the GDP, or $2.25 trillion. The GDP per capita of the people working in healthcare is $136,000. Someone is making an absurd amount of money...

The TIME story goes a long way to answering that question:
The president of MD Anderson is paid like someone running a prosperous business. Ronald DePinho’s total compensation last year was $1,845,000. That does not count outside earnings derived from a much publicized waiver he received from the university that, according to the Houston*Chronicle, allows him to maintain unspecified “financial ties with his three principal pharmaceutical companies.”.....

And in our largest cities, the system offers lavish paychecks even to midlevel hospital managers, like the 14 administrators at New York City’s Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center who are paid over $500,000 a year, including six who make over $1*million......

According to the Center for Responsive Politics, the pharmaceutical and health-care-product industries, combined with organizations representing doctors, hospitals, nursing homes, health services and HMOs, have spent $5.36*billion since 1998 on lobbying in Washington. That dwarfs the $1.53*billion spent by the defense and aerospace industries and the $1.3*billion spent by oil and gas interests over the same period. That’s right: the health-care-industrial complex spends more than three times what the military-industrial complex spends in Washington.....

But Medtronic’s October 2012 quarterly SEC filing reported that its spine “products and therapies,” which presumably include Steve H.’s device, “continue to gain broad surgeon acceptance” and that its cost to make all of its products was 24.9% of what it sells them for. That’s an unusually high gross profit margin — 75.1% — for a company that manufactures real physical products. Apple also produces high-end, high-tech products, and its gross margin is 40%. If the neurostimulator enjoys that company-wide profit margin, it would mean that if Medtronic was paid $19,000 by Mercy Hospital, Medtronic’s cost was about $4,500 and it made a gross profit of about $14,500 before expenses for sales, overhead and management — including CEO Omar Ishrak’s compensation, which was $25*million for the 2012 fiscal year.....
Etc., etc., etc.
 
Some of the debate seems to be misconstruing gross profits with net profits.

Gross profits are the amount of money a business -or hospital- has collected minus actual costs of goods sold. That is, after the costs of tangible items (bandages, medicines, crutches) that were sold to someone is subtracted.

Net profits are what is left after all of the expenses -including utilities, everyone's salaries, etc- are subtracted from the gross profits.

According to the article, most hospitals are making net profits that would turn Hollywood green.

Exactly. And to your last sentence I'd add, "despite paying significantly high salaries, such as CFOs getting paid in the seven figures".
 
The easiest answer: most medical spending in the US is done by the government.
OK, but I wonder if WildCat holds defence contractors and major bank employees to this same standard that they are "just paid to darned much"?

Daredelvis
 
I certainly didn't come away from that article with the impression that the average healthcare worker is making too much money, or that is in anyway at all the problem.

From what I can surmise the reason healthcare in this country is so expensive is:

1) Way more admin costs because doctors and hospitals need people to deal with multiple different insurance companies PLUS the government.
2) Insurance companies themselves have large admin costs, plus they're for profit.
3) Insurance providers for large business largely just don't give a damn about how much they're billed for. They are essentially guaranteed a profit margin.
4) Even non-profit hospitals are run like for-profit business. They do everything they can to bill their patients as much as possible. Including unnecessary procedures. Their top execs are paid huge salaries.
5) A CYA (cover your ass) mentality exists in the medical field when the threat of huge dollar lawsuits is ever present. This leads to even more unnecessary tests etc and more money spent. Plus the added cost of malpractice insurance.

I don't see the unnecessary tests done so that the doctor can make more money in your list. A few years ago, Forbes had an article that found that doctors who own an MRI scanner order 4 times as many scans as doctors who don't own a scanner.

I injured my ankle on a vacation. I went to an urgent care center and got it x-rayed (and got a soft splint for it). A radiologist reviewed the x-rays and agreed with the attending physicians assessment that there was no fracture. A month later, my ankle was still bothering me. I went to my usual medical clinic. They wanted to take their own x-rays. My bill included a $260 charge for having radiologist review those x-rays, which of course also showed that there was no fracture. $260 for spending a minute or 2 looking at 3 pictures??? Doctors know that they can get away with crap like this because most patients will never see exactly what they were charged and what the charges were for.
 
This has an interesting chart of relative performance of health care between countries.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21667065

.... click the column headings and it ranks the countries for that particular condition.

USA is 18/19 for heart disease, 5/19 for strokes, 16/19 for lung cancer, 8/19 for breast cancer, 19/19 for COPD and 15/19 for cirrhosis (though I believe that just represents this forum)
 
The 695 markets included in the Census Bureau report, taken as a group, had 753,100 private-sector businesses in the field of health care and social assistance as of 2010. They employed 16.54 million workers, who earned an average of $43,200 per year.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2012/10/18/austin-health-care-worker-pay-no-4-in.html

So no, the problem is not healthcare worker pay.

However, 16.5 million healthcare workers in the US means that 5% of the entire population works in the healthcare field?!

The article does not break down the average salary between full-time and part-time employees.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom