Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Mumbles]

GZ describes being hit by a sucker punch, and then having his head bashed into concrete

When you think about it, this is pretty unlikely. The supposed attack involved an "MMA style" attack, but MMA fighters are attempting to subdue their opponents *without* killing them. Even if he were looking to murder, Martin would not have mounted Zimmerman - it's much easier to kick or stomp your opponent while they're down, than to mount and attack them, and far easier to punch them, than to grab their head and bash it against concrete. Hell, in the latter, you're basically asking for a counterattack by leaving yourself unguarded in that case. Granted, a person on the ground has a disadvantage when it comes to attacking.

Also, there's the whole "suckerpunch" thing. How does one get suckerpunched by someone who you are following (and yes, Zimmerman was following Martin), and who then approaches you in anger? Zimmerman says that he reached into his pockets for his cell phone as soon as Martin approached him, but this only has the effect of both dropping your guard, *and* looking like you're going for a weapon. It's an incredibly bad thing to do, and also runs against instinct. In short, it's hard to believe.

The article has two incidents in it, sometimes it helps to read the whole thing and not just the first half of the first sentence.

I honestly wasn't looking for a full scale fight, You were the one that added all the stipulations to try and limit the possible stories as much as possible. I was more interested in showing that teenagers were quite capable of killing someone with a punch and inflicting head injuries.

The "One punch can kill" argument merits no sympathy towards Zimmerman, in my view. It would be fine if Martin actually attacked Zimmerman while Zimmerman was just walking around and minding his own business, but we know that Zimmerman, according to his own word, decided to pursue and harass Martin while *Martin* was just walking around and minding his own business.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

How could you possible know who she is, whether or not she is sad, that she is looking for attention, and that she is all over the place? Talk about confirmation bias. You should be embarrassed by this.

If it was witness 18, and it sounds like it is by her story, she lives at 3021 RVC.

Here is her 911 call.

She is completely freaked out.

At about 6:40 in the call , because she is so upset sounding, the dispatcher on the phone asks her does she have friends or family she could go stay with and she says no.

She says "I don't want to be a witness" , then proceeds to hire a lawyer and do tv interviews.

Her statement is on page 90

Here is her recorded spd interview.

She claims she held the phone up fro 911 to hear the gunshot. Which she clearly didn't, as she called after she heard. That's all over the place.

I don't see any confirmation bias here ... I see me making some observations of witness 18 based on her own statements and actions, and you getting offended for some unknown reason, even though it's obvious you know nothing about witness 18.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

They had in excess of $150,000. Read the motion to revoke bond.

The amount I was referring to was the amount GZ says he told MOM about.

So here's the real question for you TheL8Elvis: If O'Mara lied to the court, and Zimmerman is aware that he lied to the court, why does Zimmerman still retain O'Mara as his attorney? Why does Zimmerman trust the man who thoroughly screwed him over with his life?

I could speculate, but I don't know. You would have to ask GZ and his wife. Based on the recorded calls, GZ claims he told MOM about money.

 

[sgtbaker]

Look, if you want me to stop noticing the stupid crap you write, better stop writing stupid crap.

This is not the first personal attack since JohnnyKarate asked everyone to cool it down but it's the last. Not directed solely at you and I am not singling you out. It's just posts like this is what got this thread on moderated status. I am repeating Karate's request to tone it down so this thread doesn't go back on moderated status.

We have all looked at the same story and extrapolated different ideas of how it all went down. I understand it's difficult to imagine a different conclusion than your own but it's not all that uncommon when there are so many different perspectives and experiences that guide us in our own understanding of human interaction.

Some advice is to stop assuming that those different conclusions can only be reached if your opposition is stupid. Sarcasm and condescending tones, even mild ones will personalize and escalate the disagreement. Stop presuming you know why they other person is reaching and adding motive to their conclusions. I know it's a bit Rand-ish but never attempt to think for someone else because you are probably wrong.

 

[Megalodon]

The FBI keeps those stats (which is another debate altogether.) Around 800 people are killed per year by personal weapons - hands fists feet, etc...

In 2011 there were 728 homicides by personal weapon, in 2010 there were 789, in 2009 there were 817, in 2008 there were 875, in 2007 there were 869. For comparison, there were 449 deaths attributed to lightning in the decade between 1998-2008.

Thanks... Those numbers convince me even more that my claim was right. They include all the bar and club fights, as well as the domestic violence homicides. Only a fraction of those will be people killed when they were attacking a teenager when nobody was around to egg them on.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

When you think about it, this is pretty unlikely. The supposed attack involved an "MMA style" attack, but MMA fighters are attempting to subdue their opponents *without* killing them.

If you listen to the witness interviews, witness 6 explains why he used the term MMA. Go listen.

Even if he were looking to murder, Martin would not have mounted Zimmerman - it's much easier to kick or stomp your opponent while they're down, than to mount and attack them, and far easier to punch them, than to grab their head and bash it against concrete. Hell, in the latter, you're basically asking for a counterattack by leaving yourself unguarded in that case. Granted, a person on the ground has a disadvantage when it comes to attacking.

GZ claims TM says "you are going to die tonight after a specific thing happened, so that makes sense.

Also, there's the whole "suckerpunch" thing. How does one get suckerpunched by someone who you are following (and yes, Zimmerman was following Martin),

Even though all the evidence points at the fact that GZ didn't know where he was ? Hard to follow someone when you don't know where they are...

and who then approaches you in anger? Zimmerman says that he reached into his pockets for his cell phone as soon as Martin approached him, but this only has the effect of both dropping your guard, *and* looking like you're going for a weapon. It's an incredibly bad thing to do, and also runs against instinct. In short, it's hard to believe.

So your incredulity proves he's lying ?

The "One punch can kill" argument merits no sympathy towards Zimmerman, in my view. It would be fine if Martin actually attacked Zimmerman while Zimmerman was just walking around and minding his own business, but we know that Zimmerman, according to his own word, decided to pursue and harass Martin while *Martin* was just walking around and minding his own business.

No we don't.

 

[Megalodon]

This is not the first personal attack since JohnnyKarate asked everyone to cool it down but it's the last.

Nah, not really a personal attack... I'm not claiming that he's stupid, just that he writes stu... ok, so maybe it can be taken personally.

I apologize for the form of the post. Actually deleted a similar one earlier.

 

[Megalodon]

No we don't.

I see, it's all a big misunderstanding. GZ was actually taking a calm break from being there on absolutely unrelated business when that thug TM spotted him and decided he wanted to fill his murder quota for the day...

 

[WildCat]

I am not changing the parameters.

Yes, there will be new evidence, not just "learning something".

You literally think that if someone comes forward tomorrow with a videotape of the murder that it won't be allowed because some magical barrier has passed?? You literally think that if the prosecution makes some minor connection tomorrow and needs to submit something that it won't be allowed because some magical barrier has passed?? You sure you watched multiple FL trials before??

Even in the sunshine state the state often plays very coy with certain aspects of evidence until a few months before the trial. The defense always cries foul and says "why didn't they put 2 and 2 together months ago and give us more time" and the state says "sorry".



They can and they do.

They just have to prove that it is new to them.

Also we're not talking about just at trial, we're talking about from now to the trial as well.

Remember, the claim was that we have everything now.




Wow. You think they never checked a homicide victims hands for blood and you call other people truthers? Unbelievable.

Lol, now you're claiming the hands were tested and the results are secret?

And look at that huge goalpost shift! Remember when you said:

The prosecution has information we do not have.

And people wonder why I use the term "Trayvon Truthers".

 

[WildCat]

Also, if this witness saw him and he didn't have that bloody nose and wasn't bloody, but a few minutes later he DID, then I don't know how George explains this, do you?

Classic, now we're back to insinuating that Zimmerman gave himself a bloody nose after the shooting.

Truth away Unabogie!

 

[WildCat]

Repeatedly punching someone, especially in their face, causes damage to your hands, especially the knuckles.

And here another truth-teller claims an absolute truth, and once again "forgets" to provide any evidence or citation for the claim.

 

[WildCat]

And about the knuckle damage: It's more likely not to have knuckle damage in a kid's fight then a man's fight. Kids tend to fear the pain of the blow more. So that would explain why there were no cuts in TMs hands.

However, if this is a 16 year old, hitting like a 16 year old would, where the hell is the life threatening situation? Where is the justification for shooting? You can't have it both ways. Either he was an athletic young man ferociously attacking GZ, or he didn't get offensive bruises and cuts, and was not realistically threatening the life of anyone.

Unless being scared is enough justification, in which case we go back to the 'SYG is a license to murder' argument. I slap you, you punch me, I shoot you... "but officer, look at the boo-boo on my nose... I had to shoot him, I was scared..."

And here we have another truther who can't even get basic facts like Martin's age correct. Yet another thing in common they have with 9/11 truthers.

 

[WildCat]

Show me the numbers.

How many people have been killed by complete strangers that they engaged on a one-to-one, no witnesses bare knuckle fight. When the would be murderer is a non-intoxicated teenager.

I am suggesting that being killed by lightning is much more probable.

And what part of the SYG law requires fear of death before you can shoot?

Keep Making stuff up out of wHole cloth Megalodon, that's the way you "win" on the internet!

 

[WildCat]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...conviction-and-acquittal-for-journalist-death

One we just had that involved a punch, concrete and death, though a 20 year old, so just out of teen.

They aren't that hard to find though, where people get punched, have their head hit against something solid and end up dead.

here's another.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...th-coroner-finds/story-fnat79vb-1226525776916

I know you want to have the thinish goal posts possible and so added in about 50 provisios, but the reality is that people die from being punched in the head or having their head hit against concrete, even by teenagers, and it's so common, it's not hard to find stories about it.

Here's another one of a fight going wrong

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/12/03/3646244.htm

another single punch by a teenager leading to a hit head and death

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...punch-tells-inquest-It-was-self-defence..html

How many blows to the head do you need for it to be fatal?

How many time do you have to allow someone to hit your head against something hard or punch you before you can be "in fear for your life?"

Had an incident here last year where a 16 year old kid killed a grown man in an alley with a single punch.

 

[WildCat]

The CDC lists approximately 5,000 deaths via assault in the US a year, unfortunately it doesn't separate them into assault with a weapon and without unless it's a gun. Considering that we have had a number of people killed a year from fights not involving weapons, and I can't recall the last one killed in a lightning strike, I would bet that more people die by a punch than by lightning.

You need to lok at FBI crime stats for homicide data, where you will find that abouit 6% of all homicides involve no weapons at all, just hands, feet, etc.

And considering how many people are exposed to thunderstorms as opposed to getting in fights, the risk of death from a punch in a fight is far higher than getting struck by lightning.

 

[johnny karate]

Please settle down, people.

 

[WildCat]

Thanks... Those numbers convince me even more that my claim was right. They include all the bar and club fights, as well as the domestic violence homicides. Only a fraction of those will be people killed when they were attacking a teenager when nobody was around to egg them on.

Wow, look at that goalpost move!

Now it has to be a man attacked by a teenager in order to qualify.

 

[johnny karate]

The amount I was referring to was the amount GZ says he told MOM about.

So then Zimmerman did lie. He witheld amost $120,000 from his attorney.

I could speculate, but I don't know. You would have to ask GZ and his wife. Based on the recorded calls, GZ claims he told MOM about money.

But just not all -or even most - of it.

I honestly have no idea what you're asserting at this point. You seem to be trying to contort the facts that plainly demonstrate a deception took place into some kind of narrative in which no one was at fault for that deception.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Please settle down, people.

Yes, please.

Let's disagree and insult each other in a clever, interesting or semi-polite way, instead of flat out name calling.

 

[Unabogie]

Yes, please.

Let's disagree and insult each other in a clever, interesting or semi-polite way, instead of flat out name calling.

This is really unfortunate. Yesterday we were really making headway and I thought we'd gotten a lot closer on some of the factual elements of the case. Then a few people who only seem to want to derail the thread stomped through and we're back to bickering.

There's a few factual elements that both you and PhantomWolf seemed to be coming around on, and I think we should go back to discussing those.

The first is that I think we are in agreement now on the basic distances involved from the sidewalk, to the keys, to the body, to the phone and flashlight. We agree that the phone and flashlight are interesting pieces of evidence and that they MAY indicate that the story didn't happen the way George originally told it, but at the very least demand some further illumination. We also agree that we should wait to hear from the witnesses on the stand before placing too much stock into their earlier statements. We agree that there are two versions of George's story of the start of the fight in which he fell down immediately, and one in which he moved towards the eventual shooting. We agree that a witness saw him get up after the shooting and walk, although to where and for how long we don't know. We agree that the location of the keys and the location of the arrest would be good to know. We agree that it's possible he dropped the keys after the shooting, although we don't know that either but we agree that this is something to watch. We agree that Witness 6 is important, as is the witness who saw George after the fight and saw him walking towards her/him.

I think we should go back to those items and try and build on them and ignore the people trying to stomp on the conversation.