NY Proposal to Screw Gun Owner's a Little Bit Further

WildCat said:
I'm no expert by any means, but IIRC all that is required is you fill out all the paperwork and pay the fee. Assuming you pass the background check of course.

You don't have to incorporate or anything like that, and I doubt you need a lawyer.
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It's a little more complicated than that. To begin with you have to have a brick and mortar business. There was a time when you could just obtain the FFL and deal out of your home, but those days are long gone. It must contain facilities for secure storage of firearms.The BATF will check, too.

You can operate as a sole proprietorship, but you're assuming a huge liability if you do.That's why most businesses form a corporation or LLP.

You're also required to conform to all local business and zoning laws, which means you'll have to get a business license and in many jurisdictions operate your primary business in an area zoned for that business.
So you'll definitely need an attorney, unless you want to throw the dice and gamble away a good deal of money, time, and effort.

If you don't want to operate as a sole proprietorship and use your SSN for tax purposes, you'll need to obtain an EIN. Not difficult, but the IRS is not known for its kindly attitude towards businesses who don't keep good books. Four years after I closed down a business (through a perfectly legal and above board liquidation) the IRS came after me with an audit. Fortunately, I'm a packrat and kept every scrap of paper involved. They ended up owing me (or at least the corporation) $400.00, although I was not keen on pressing them for it.

The BATF has the right to inspect your premises and books , and while they may not come around often, when they do you better have your ducks in a row. They will at the least go over your "bound book" with a fine tooth comb, and they've been known to seize property on the flimsiest of reasons.

So, no, you don't just mail off a money order and an application then start ordering your crates of rifles, delivered COD to your back door.
Like I said, it's a lot of work for $20 a pop.
Here's the actual application that you file to get started.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12.pdf
 
monty1 said:
I've never heard that claim before. I'm going to continue to maintain that the bulk of weapons in Mexico are of US origin until somebody proves otherwise.
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I'm shocked that someone as erudite as yourself would be unaware that so many of the weapons used by the cartels originate from sources other than the US private sales, regardless of their point of manufacture.
I suppose you were too busy researching the perfidy of the United States Marine Corps for committing the atrocity at My Lai. And to think the US Army got blamed for it, when there was at least one photojournalist on site the whole time.
Or possibly you were just overwhelmed in your quest to prove the inherent racism of Americans by analyzing television scripts for fictional characters.
Let me assist you. Here's a good start:
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/ryan-mauro/where-drug-cartels-really-get-their-arms/
And here is more which affirms parts of the conclusions made in the article:
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/judi...-Stubborn-Things-Guns-in-Mexico-documents.pdf
Please note (if your busy schedule permits you the time to actually inform yourself on the subject at hand) the section in Sen Grassley's letters where the "traced" guns are categorized, paying special attention to the ones listed as No Final Sale Dealer(NFS). These are firearms that have been sold by direct purchase agreements to foreign governments under the approval of the State Department. The Obama administration has authorized the vast majority of the sales. No dealer ever touched the firearms, they were sold directly to the FG's (mostly Mexico) by the manufacturers. At least 9,000 of them were reported "unaccounted for" in 2009, before the administration stopped releasing information on direct sales purchases.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u.s-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/
You might also want to take a look at the photograph in the article. This is the same photo that has been widely distributed by the liberal media as "proof" of all the arms coming across the border from the US. Please note that hand grenades, 40mm rifle grenades, launchers, and military grade M4's make up the bulk of the weapons shown. These are arms that have been sold by the US government to the governments of other countries (including Mexico) and have "found their way" into the hands of the cartels.
N. Korea, the Republics of the former Soviet Union, and the Glorious Peoples Republic of Vietnam, whom you have shown such glowing admiration for, are among the suppliers to the cartels.
A little common sense is in order here. The cartels are vicious and and amoral, but they still know how to count. Why pay $1000 for a smuggled semi-auto AR-15 when for the same price you can purchase a case of fully automatic AK-47s?
http://legacy.prio.org/NISAT/Public...-Controlling-the-Brokers-and-Shipping-Agents/
I hope this assists you in your ever growing quest for the truth.
 
WildCat said:
Now I know there's been a run on ammo lately, but I thought it was mostly media hype. At any rate I figured it would mostly affect 5.56 ammo and such, certainly not something as ubiquitous as .22LR... boy was I ever wrong! No problem with shotgun shells, but not a single box of .22LR in the whole ginormous store. Oddly enough, they had lots of .223 Rem and even some 5.56 as well as .308 and 30/06 and most popular pistol ammo (9mm, .38 Special, .357, .40 S&W, and .45 auto). But not a single box of .44 mag. Then the employees start rolling out stock they just got today, and me and about 10 other people were swarming it hoping there'd be the ammo we were looking for in it. Some got lucky, but not me. No .22LR or .44 mag available. :mad:
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We have the same issue here. When centerfire cartidges became scarce, much of the manufacturing capacity was switched from less popular/profitable rounds. At the same time, more shooters were dusting off the .22s because cheap ammo could still be found. .22LR was plentiful at Christmas - now they take some planning to find.
 
monty1 said:
If that's a true story and not just made up for the drama and attention getting it invokes, then it's very interesting.
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http://www.bulkammo.com/5250-rounds-of-22-lr-ammo-by-federal-champion-36gr-cphp
http://www.slickguns.com/product/blazer-cci-high-velocity-22lr-5000-case-15999-free-shipping
http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=691469

etc...

.22LR can be found - just don't expect you'll drop by you favorite ammo supplier and find it in stock like you would have for the last 30 years.
 
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triforcharity said:
No. My money should not go to help cover for the scumbag's actions. No sir. Nay nay. Nope.

There's already victim compensation funds available through each state.
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If that is the case then I would not load insurance to cover uninsured incidents. Where does the money come from for the compensation funds?

triforcharity said:
Well, sort of. In Florida, uninsured motorist coverage is optional. I have it, but many do not. Each state is most likely a little different.
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Don't uninsured motorists still have to pay a bond to cover accidents? Our insurance options are third party only where you have no cover for yourself, third party, fire and theft and fully comprehensive cover.



Oh, so I shouldn't have to pay into the school system, because my children have never attended a public school? And I have never had to call 911, so I shouldn't have to pay for fire services?

We all pay for things we don't necessarily like, or agree with. But, it's a benefit to society as a whole. You may disagree, but that is my opinion. (WRT: guns)

I think it not only violates my right to own and possess a firearm, but it makes insurance companies a bunch of money, and does next to nothing.
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I think the pro-gun side needs to start calling for and getting better gun control or they should pay for the damage being caused. Not the present lax system and not footing the bill. That is very unfair on the rest of society who have chosen not to have guns and so are not contributing to the problem.



Are you serious? Colorado is already in the process of banning high capactiy magazines. It's going to force a company called Magpul to relocate their entire company, out of the state of Colorado. Oh well. Texas and South Carolina have already offered them great deals to come there.

New York, as you should know, has instituted wide reaching restrictions on guns, incorrectly labeled assault weapons, and high capacity magazines.

But yet, nothing's being done.....:confused:
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Nothing of note that is going to make any real difference is being done.
 
Cylinder said:
We have the same issue here. When centerfire cartidges became scarce, much of the manufacturing capacity was switched from less popular/profitable rounds. At the same time, more shooters were dusting off the .22s because cheap ammo could still be found. .22LR was plentiful at Christmas - now they take some planning to find.
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That makes sense, but companies like CCI don't even make centerfire ammo. I'm sure they have their plant at full capacity churning out rimfire ammo, but people must be hoarding that too now. I guess once there's a shortage that's only natural. Hell I'll probably buy 10 boxes when I find some. :p
 
Nessie said:
I think the pro-gun side needs to start calling for and getting better gun control or they should pay for the damage being caused. Not the present lax system and not footing the bill. That is very unfair on the rest of society who have chosen not to have guns and so are not contributing to the problem.
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And neither is 99% of the legal gun-owners. Factually, the "damage being caused" by firearms is minute compared to other causes of death. You're making it bigger than it really is*.

It's bad enough that our taxes are burned up on counsel, trial, and imprisonment of these criminals...now you want me to insure those criminals?

Consider this:
Do you feel compelled to pay extra insurance to cover the drunk driver that ran over a family? Drunk driving is a problem! Therefore, all car owners contribute to the "drunk driving problem"!

It's not a way to correct a problem. IMO, I believe it actually makes the situation worse. Because A). it won't stop criminals, and B). it opens up a whole new level of insurance fraud.


*Disclaimer - I'm not saying that people being killed is OK and my stance of stricter controls of who can obtain a firearm still stands.
 
Sabretooth said:
And neither is 99% of the legal gun-owners. Factually, the "damage being caused" by firearms is minute compared to other causes of death. You're making it bigger than it really is*.
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Bear in mind I continually include dealers and makers, something no one else does. I am assuming very few guns are made by illegal makers, so all start off legal and then often very quickly become illegal.

It's bad enough that our taxes are burned up on counsel, trial, and imprisonment of these criminals...now you want me to insure those criminals?
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No I want gun owners to insure themselves so as to be able to pay for their accidents when they accidentally shoot pals out hunting, when they are careless and leave a gun that a toddler gets hold of and shoots another child, when they go rage and shoot innocents who they think was a threat to them but was just dressed as John Travolta going to a party.

Consider this:
Do you feel compelled to pay extra insurance to cover the drunk driver that ran over a family? Drunk driving is a problem! Therefore, all car owners contribute to the "drunk driving problem"!
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Part of my car insurance goes to a fund for people who are in accidents with uninsured drivers, which includes drunk drivers. We do that in the UK already. I am fine with that.

It's not a way to correct a problem. IMO, I believe it actually makes the situation worse. Because A). it won't stop criminals, and B). it opens up a whole new level of insurance fraud.


*Disclaimer - I'm not saying that people being killed is OK and my stance of stricter controls of who can obtain a firearm still stands.
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This is not a measure to deal with criminals, it is a measure to help make legal gun owners more responsible with their guns. If you are worried about insurance fraud, there are ways of dealing with it such as the rest of the insurance industry is huge and I suspect you don't consider such as a problem when insuring your car, house, cat or whatever.
 
Nessie said:
Bear in mind I continually include dealers and makers, something no one else does. I am assuming very few guns are made by illegal makers, so all start off legal and then often very quickly become illegal.

...
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There have been some improvised guns over the years, zip guns for example, but they are not high on the scale of weapons that you worry about as they are more likely to harm the user than be useful as a weapon.

If guns were totally unavailable, people would no doubt come up with something like the FP-45 Liberator, but again, that isn't a weapon I would worry too much about, and would exist in tiny numbers.
 
Cylinder said:
Sounds like you've already covered what would have been my best advice - talk to the guy on the floor and find out when the new merchandise is actually restocked.
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I did, he had no idea. They didn't even know what had been shipped to them until they opened the boxes. So I waited an hour and a half while they unpacked several carts filled with new ammo shipments and no luck. They had a bit more to go through yet but the snow/ice storm was starting and I had to go home while the roads were still in decent condition.

They had lots of mags for AR-15s though, but they were cheap plastic ones with a $30 price tag! Not that I own an AR-15 but if I did I don't think I'd want those for that price.

Oh well, lots of shotgun ammo available so at least I can kill clay pigeons to my heart's desire.

eta: I don't think I can mail order ammo in Illinois.
 
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Nessie said:
Bear in mind I continually include dealers and makers, something no one else does. I am assuming very few guns are made by illegal makers, so all start off legal and then often very quickly become illegal.



No I want gun owners to insure themselves so as to be able to pay for their accidents when they accidentally shoot pals out hunting, when they are careless and leave a gun that a toddler gets hold of and shoots another child, when they go rage and shoot innocents who they think was a threat to them but was just dressed as John Travolta going to a party.


Part of my car insurance goes to a fund for people who are in accidents with uninsured drivers, which includes drunk drivers. We do that in the UK already. I am fine with that.



This is not a measure to deal with criminals, it is a measure to help make legal gun owners more responsible with their guns. If you are worried about insurance fraud, there are ways of dealing with it such as the rest of the insurance industry is huge and I suspect you don't consider such as a problem when insuring your car, house, cat or whatever.
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Doesn't that seem like a vanishingly small problem? I live in a hunting state, and work in a hospital, and the kind of shooting you describe is rare.
 
WildCat said:
I did, he had no idea. They didn't even know what had been shipped to them until they opened the boxes. So I waited an hour and a half while they unpacked several carts filled with new ammo shipments and no luck. They had a bit more to go through yet but the snow/ice storm was starting and I had to go home while the roads were still in decent condition.

They had lots of mags for AR-15s though, but they were cheap plastic ones with a $30 price tag! Not that I own an AR-15 but if I did I don't think I'd want those for that price.

Oh well, lots of shotgun ammo available so at least I can kill clay pigeons to my heart's desire.

eta: I don't think I can mail order ammo in Illinois.
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I've ordered ammo, shipped to Illinois from a major online firearms and accessories supplier in Columbia, Missouri. It's been several years, so their policy -- or the laws in Missouri or Illinois -- may have changed since then. As I recall I just had to send a photocopy of my FOID showing the same name and address as the shipping order. Their online catalog has a pretty scant supply of ammo, but they show expected dates on many of the back-order notices.

And it doesn't even look like they're under the bizarre impression that you should be penalized or held responsible for things other people might do with their hobby equipment. :)
 
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GeeMack said:
I've ordered ammo, shipped to Illinois from a major inline firearms and accessories supplier in Columbia, Missouri. It's been several years, so their policy -- or the laws in Missouri or Illinois -- may have changed since then. As I recall I just had to send a photocopy of my FOID showing the same name and address as the shipping order. Their online catalog has a pretty scant supply of ammo, but they show expected dates on many of the back-order notices.

And it doesn't even look like they're under the bizarre impression that you should be penalized or held responsible for things other people might do with their hobby equipment. :)
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I asked a while back why everyone was buying up ammunition to the point of it being scarce but nobody could answer. I'll try again.

I think it may have something to do with spiting Obama's and the Dems efforts. But it could also have something to do with the notion in the gungoon mind that they are going to have their guns taken away by their government. They will need to have lot of ammo to fight back!

I don't make this stuff up folks, it's too real to make up.
 
monty1 said:
I asked a while back why everyone was buying up ammunition to the point of it being scarce but nobody could answer. I'll try again.

I think it may have something to do with spiting Obama's and the Dems efforts. But it could also have something to do with the notion in the gungoon mind that they are going to have their guns taken away by their government. They will need to have lot of ammo to fight back!

I don't make this stuff up folks, it's too real to make up.
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Can't say as I've ever met any "gungoons". My personal circle of firearms hobbyists and enthusiasts consists of probably almost as many people who would be considered left, generally supportive of most of Obama's and the Democratic party's positions on most issues. None of them, right, center, left, Republican, Democrat, or those who take their politics à la carte like I do, base their position on irrational fear of some mechanical devices. All of them seem to realize that progress will only be made toward reducing gun violence when people are willing to address the causes of violence.

If the same energy was invested into addressing the causes of violence instead of the hand-wringing, America hating, fear based whining we see in the anti-gun arguments, the objective of reducing violence could be realized. Maybe the arguments opposing gun ownership or favoring extreme restrictions wouldn't be so impotent if they were based on something other than irrational fear and subjective opinion. Maybe they'd actually be effective if they were aimed at the correct target.
 
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