Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[StankApe]

You do realise that they were doing these "antics" well before any television show was created?

He DID say "got them" and not "are due to"....

 

[PhantomWolf]

He DID say "got them" and not "are due to"....

I know that, I was trying to point out that it wasn't a case of them doing antics to get a TV show and publicity, they already had publicity and were doing those things well before the TV show.

 

[StankApe]

ahh okay, thought you ha misunderstood and though he was claiming it was due to their being on TV (tho I suspect that he amped up the action for the cameras as he's nothing if not a show boating,self absorbed megalomaniac)

 

[Magenta]

However, they're not going to do so if it would mean losing face. As long as these nuts are doing their stunts, Japan is not going to back down.

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

There is a prevalent tradition in Japanese culture of "Saving face". Perhaps you've heard of it. In more crass terms it's being stubborn and refusing to be pressured into decisions even if it costs them economically when it means losing honor.

 

[Magenta]

There is a prevalent tradition in Japanese culture of "Saving face". Perhaps you've heard of it. In more crass terms it's being stubborn and refusing to be pressured into decisions even if it costs them economically when it means losing honor.

Do you have any evidence that "saving face" is the reason for the Japanese government's intransigence?

 

[NoahFence]

Its just understood.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Its just understood.

And unless you (not you in particular but you as in anyone else) have a better explanation then I'm all ears.

Japan really doesn't want or need whale meat anymore as evidenced by how difficult it is to sell the stuff on the open market. I'd be surprised if they break even on the venture but 1) It's a tradition and just like in most societies traditions are hard to break and 2) they don't like being told what to do by outsiders (this is where the saving face part comes in) much less by what they consider to be terrorists.

Sea Shepherds are their own worst enemies as far as reaching their stated goals. Not only do their tactics almost mandate that Japan digs in their heels but for most of the rest of the world that has seen them in action on their television show they are shown to be inept hypocritical thugs who place no value on the law or human life when it suits them. I'd call them something nicer but they wear it on their sleeve like its a matter of pride for them.

 

[PhantomWolf]

And unless you (not you in particular but you as in anyone else) have a better explanation then I'm all ears.

Japan really doesn't want or need whale meat anymore as evidenced by how difficult it is to sell the stuff on the open market. I'd be surprised if they break even on the venture but 1) It's a tradition and just like in most societies traditions are hard to break and 2) they don't like being told what to do by outsiders (this is where the saving face part comes in) much less by what they consider to be terrorists.

Sea Shepherds are their own worst enemies as far as reaching their stated goals. Not only do their tactics almost mandate that Japan digs in their heels but for most of the rest of the world that has seen them in action on their television show they are shown to be inept hypocritical thugs who place no value on the law or human life when it suits them. I'd call them something nicer but they wear it on their sleeve like its a matter of pride for them.

So what was their excuse from 1994 when the Sancutary was declared to when SS arrived on the scene in around 2008?

 

[tsig]

Their actions seem counter productive. Whaling is subsidized by the government and without the SS antics the government might want to end the expense.

Could Sea Shepherd’s “sabotage” tactics, which include hurling rancid butter on to the decks of harpoon vessels, actually be harming the anti-whaling cause? Watanabe believes the group, described as “eco-terrorists” by the whaling lobby, may have hindered the conservationist cause. “Violent incidents at sea actually help Japan promote whaling at home,” he said.



The fleet of between four and six vessels that leaves for the Antarctic every winter costs the taxpayer about $10 million dollars a year, according to IFAW. Last year the subsidy included 2.28 billion yen ($20 million) in funds intended to aid the reconstruction of the region devastated by the March 2011 tsunami. The government’s excuse: that some of the affected communities had a tradition of coastal whale hunting.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/.../japan/130214/whaling-whalemeat-japanese-food

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

Guess you missed this post.

 

[smartcooky]

2) they don't like being told what to do by outsiders (this is where the saving face part comes in) much less by what they consider to be terrorists.

Very important to keep this is mind.

The Japanese have never apologised for the gross atrocities they committed on allied POWs in WW2. They are the only country involved in that war who have not done so.

Saving face is everything, and they could keep whaling just to be bloody minded.

 

[Magenta]

Guess you missed this post.

I didn't miss it; I replied to it:

Their actions seem counter productive. Whaling is subsidized by the government and without the SS antics the government might want to end the expense.

There's a very strong nationalist element to the Japanese government's support for whaling. They resist criticism from anyone - not just Sea Shepherd. From the article you linked:

The industry is also protected by a “committed core group” of fisheries agency bureaucrats and politicians who use international criticism to boost their case for lethal research, according to IFAW's Ramage.

“They’ve effectively married the funding issue to an argument that says anyone who criticizes whaling is anti-Japanese or that whale meat is fundamental to Japanese food culture,” he said. “But this report shows that the Japanese people don’t buy that argument any more than they’re buying whale meat.”

I think focussing solely on Sea Shepherd ignores the political dimension. Does anyone really think that if Sea Shepherd gave up their campaign Japan would stop whaling in the Southern Ocean?

 

[Pantaz]

There are two principal issues within this thread: Commercial whale hunting, and the Sea Shepherd group. I believe commingling of the two has resulted in some confusion.

I disagree with the tactics of the Sea Shepherd group, and I believe many of their actions are criminal.

I oppose commercial whale hunting, regardless of national affiliation.

Anybody here dislike Sea Shepherd because you approve of commercial whale hunting? Not likely.

 

[philkensebben]

Unfortunately the antics of SSCS are a requirement in order to prevent this slaughter.

As for the difference, cows aren't being killed in a cow sanctuary.

Ok, so hypothetically then, the whales are harvested in Japanese waters (somewhere not deeemd a sanctuary) in a manner no different to cows in the USA.

Are you cool with that?

Look I'm really just interested in exactly what it is you're opposed to.

Saying theirs no need to kill them for food in this day and age is fine, but by the same token, why do we need to kill other domestic animals for food? People can live quite happily on a vegetarian diet. Are you a vegetarian? Are you opposed to the killing of all animals? If so, then I understand your position on anti-whaling. If not, then I don't. Could you explain your position further please?

 

[Ryokan]

Anybody here dislike Sea Shepherd because you approve of commercial whale hunting? Not likely.

Why is that not likely?

 

[smartcooky]

There are two principal issues within this thread: Commercial whale hunting, and the Sea Shepherd group. I believe commingling of the two has resulted in some confusion.

I disagree with the tactics of the Sea Shepherd group, and I believe many of their actions are criminal.

I oppose commercial whale hunting, regardless of national affiliation.

Anybody here dislike Sea Shepherd because you approve of commercial whale hunting? Not likely.

The whales cannot defend themselves, and cannot speak for themselves. Someone has to do that for them. Do we want to leave that to politicians and negotiators? Well, they don't exactly have a successful track record do they. Politicians have a tendency to do only those things they deem necessary for them to maintain their status as politicians.

Besides, if history teaches us anything about the Japanese psyche, its that dealing with them by negotiation has proved to be a dismal failure (Pearl Harbor, Wake Island, Singapore). If you back-down in front of them, they will seize on that as a sign of weakness, and will do everything they can to exploit it.

The only thing they seem to understand is when you stand up to them and beat them into submission (Midway, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Hiroshima, Nagasaki); oh, and that doesn't mean I advocate nuking their whaling ships!!

The members of SSCS do not regard this as some sort of game. They are prepared to risk their own lives to save as many whales as they can from a brutal, protracted and excruciating death. I hope they continue their current campaign against the illegal Japanese whaling in the southern ocean, and if that means they have to physically confront the whalers, then so be it.

 

[Ryokan]

Besides, if history teaches us anything about the Japanese psyche, its that dealing with them by negotiation has proved to be a dismal failure (Pearl Harbor, Wake Island, Singapore). If you back-down in front of them, they will seize on that as a sign of weakness, and will do everything they can to exploit it.

The only thing they seem to understand is when you stand up to them and beat them into submission (Midway, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Hiroshima, Nagasaki); oh, and that doesn't mean I advocate nuking their whaling ships!!

You forgot to mention their shifty little eyes.

I'm glad you don't advocate nuking their whaling ships, despite that being maybe the only thing those yellow demons would understand. Probably because that would hurt the whales too, right?

 

[Sam.I.Am]

So what was their excuse from 1994 when the Sancutary was declared to when SS arrived on the scene in around 2008?

Notice where I said "Anymore". The sale of whale meat in Japan has been declining for a while. Younger people don't seem to be buying it as much as they used to and Japan has had to resort to including it in school lunches to draw down the frozen surplus whale meat in their food reserves before it goes bad. I think that given time Japan would have significantly reduced its catch voluntarily on its own, however given the stubborn nature of their culture and how the Sea Shepherds tactics intentionally bring whaling to focus in the media it makes it impossible for them to stop without losing face.

As it stands even the Japanese left wing party (in power since 2009) the party that one would expect to try and get whaling to stop, cannot stop it now without losing face (and as a consequence to that lose political power). In the end the Sea Shepherds are shooting themselves in the foot for short term gains. Most people who deride the Sea Shepherds tactics and actions (myself included) end up defending whalers by default and not because they support whaling (I don't) but because they know that Japan can only really change the policy from within while the Sea Shepherds are making that impossible.

 

[smartcooky]

Notice where I said "Anymore". The sale of whale meat in Japan has been declining for a while. Younger people don't seem to be buying it as much as they used to and Japan has had to resort to including it in school lunches to draw down the frozen surplus whale meat in their food reserves before it goes bad. I think that given time Japan would have significantly reduced its catch voluntarily on its own, however given the stubborn nature of their culture and how the Sea Shepherds tactics intentionally bring whaling to focus in the media it makes it impossible for them to stop without losing face.

As it stands even the Japanese left wing party (in power since 2009) the party that one would expect to try and get whaling to stop, cannot stop it now without losing face (and as a consequence to that lose political power). In the end the Sea Shepherds are shooting themselves in the foot for short term gains. Most people who deride the Sea Shepherds tactics and actions (myself included) end up defending whalers by default and not because they support whaling (I don't) but because they know that Japan can only really change the policy from within while the Sea Shepherds are making that impossible.

Al that will take years

Meanwhile, the unbridled and unnecessary slaughter will continue.

Someone has to act on behalf of the whales otherwise the political efforts would amount to nought anyway.

 

[Ryokan]

That's what's happening in Norway as well, whale consumption has gone down because it's just not trendy food. That's not unique to whale - horse as a meat source has probably declined a lot more than whale has.

It never was everyday food, anyway. I usually have it once or twice a year - less now after my grandmother died. She made the most delicious whale steak you can imagine.

But the only thing that stands in the way of Norwegian whaling is the market. The popularity of whale meat as food. No party in parliament is against whaling. No major animal welfare organization, either. And Norway is pretty big on animal welfare. Ask any Norwegian what he thinks of wolf hunting, and it's very likely he'll have a strong opinion. The same with keeping foxes for fur, and banning circus animals. But when it comes to whaling, there's practically no opposition. There just is too much other animal cruelty in the world to fight against what most Norwegians see as comparable to other animal killings for food.

From where I'm standing, it looks like almost all arguments against whaling boils down to 'whales are magical, dude'. They're not. Despite being quite majestic animals, they're still animals. I'm strongly against hunting species that are anywhere near extinction, or in danger of, but if it's sustainable, why not? As long as the animals suffer no less than at the slaughter house or during hunting, why not?

I know I won't be changing anyone's minds here. Most seem to have made their minds up. Whatever.