The Australian "custody sisters"

[lionking]

Kids need to be raise by relatives that hate their ethnicity to make them know their worth. Lying scumbag Italians.

It's quite clear you are trolling, but could you troll without building strawmen?

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's quite clear you are trolling, but could you troll without building strawmen?

What strawman? That is the environment they were rescued into. Clearly it is an enviroment you support or you just constantly ignore the evidence of the unfitnes of the eviroment they were "rescued" into.

 

[This is The End]

Wrong. Extremely faulty logic.

Wow.

It was dead on, and that's all you have?

Please explain exactly which part of this breakdown is even close to faulty:

Your claim:

And what if the "kidnapping" is justified? There are certainly circumstances where this is so.

Examining your claim:

You appear to be saying there are cases where kidnapping is justified and illegal.

Because if it was not illegal she could just go tell the authorities the reason for the kidnapping, they would take care of it in the appropriate manner, and it would then cease to be a kidnapping.

Therefore, again, you must be saying it is justified and illegal, both at the same time.

And it follows from that that you must be saying that the current law is unjust.

Literally the only way your claim is logical is if you believe the current law is not just.

This is because if the current law is just, then she could just tell the authorities and it would cease to be kidnapping.

Again, if you are not claiming that the current law is unjust, your claim becomes illogical.

 

[This is The End]

If you would prefer not attempting to refute that breakdown you could just recant your claim:

And what if the "kidnapping" is justified? There are certainly circumstances where this is so.

Alternately, if you again merely respond with just "you are wrong" I believe you know that we will read that as a clear concession.


Those are the 2 easy ways out. Or you could try and specifically address the logic. It's up to you.

 

[Matthew Best]

Again, if you are not claiming that the current law is unjust, your claim becomes illogical.

Turning this round, your implied claim here is that a just law can never have unjust consequences. Is that what you believe?

 

[lionking]

Wow.

It was dead on, and that's all you have?

Please explain exactly which part of this breakdown is even close to faulty:

Your claim:



Examining your claim:




Literally the only way your claim is logical is if you believe the current law is not just.

This is because if the current law is just, then she could just tell the authorities and it would cease to be kidnapping.

Again, if you are not claiming that the current law is unjust, your claim becomes illogical.

Repeating your faulty logic doesn't make it correct.

 

[joesixpack]

Are you saying I'm anti-father? You couldn't be more wrong.

My impression would be based on this;

Is this based on mind reading?

I'd simply like someone to articulate why the children are better off with the father, other than saying it's the Italian law (which the Amanda Knox case shows isn't infallible). The opposite is usually the case.

Please clarify, otherwise I'm reading you correctly. The second bolded sentence seems to refer to the first bolded clause.

You are too emotionally involved to have a sensible debate with at the moment.

Too emotionally involved? So far the ONLY argument against returning the girls to Italy has been that they were emotional when they were forced to do so.

All of these comments are questionable, to say the least.

So far the only questionable comments I've seen have come from you and the other opponents of the Australian courts. They are not based on fact and they require a total suspension of critical thinking.

If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I never said the mother rescued the girls from the father.

I have read what you wrote. I wonder if you have?

Nope. One person's kidnapped is another person's rescued.

You have absolutely no evidence that the mother is unfit. I don't know of any mother who wouldn't do what she thought was in the best interests of her children, courts notwithstanding*. You are dealing in personal bias not fact.

Oh, and replace "rescued" for "kidnapped" and see how your post reads.

And what if the "kidnapping" is justified? There are certainly circumstances where this is so. .

I think we could be forgiven for thinking that you were suggesting it wasn't kidnapping based on these statements.

And ******* crazy mother? That's a reasonable way to continue a debate?

I think I'll leave you with your absolute certainties. At least some others see shades of grey.

Absolute certainties? Oh, you mean "Facts"!

Tell me, do you see an alternative to returning the girls to Italy that would be just? I mean, so far what you advocate is that the girls be allowed to remain with their mother and the father should go kick rocks. If you have another suggestion then you should put it forward, otherwise don't complain about the strawmen.

* Clearly you don't know many mothers. They are not imbued with mystical powers of infallibility simply by giving birth. They are quite human and suffer the same defects as the rest of us mortals.

 

[joesixpack]

Turning this round, your implied claim here is that a just law can never have unjust consequences. Is that what you believe?

Could you please explain what you think would have been the "just" outcome? I haven't seen many opinions on this other than "Let the mother keep the kids and the father should just accept his fate".

 

[joesixpack]

Repeating your faulty logic doesn't make it correct.

Simply stating that logic is faulty doesn't make it so. You need to demonstrate where it fails.

 

[Wildy]

It's so simple people:

Removing kids from their life in a country they've lived in for 7-13 years through deception is good.

Removing kids from their life in a country they've lived in for 2 years is cruel and unjust.

Clearly we know which is worse.

[/sarcasm]

 

[BenBurch]

Wildy - exactly.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Could you please explain what you think would have been the "just" outcome? I haven't seen many opinions on this other than "Let the mother keep the kids and the father should just accept his fate".

You seem obsessed with justice for the father and punishment for the mother. Where do the kids factor in to your argument?

The options for them were to stay where they were happy or be dragged across the globe screaming and fighting to somewhere they don't want to be.

Some articles I could find :
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...ic-to-be-be-calm/story-fndo1qgd-1226490203021

-Not letting them speak to their mum seems spiteful and would only fuel their fear that they would never see her again.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...lee-to-australia/story-fndo1yus-1226488525352

-Says Australian embassy helped them leave Italy with one-way tickets because he wasn't supporting them financially.

----

This whole thing is a mess. Neither of these people have acted maturely and it's the children who are suffering for it.

Even saying that legally they had to go back surely you don't condone the violence used to achieve this, do you? And none of this 'the mum could have made it easier' stuff. At that age if I was throwing a fit there is no way my mum could've stopped me.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

It's so simple people:

Removing kids from their life in a country they've lived in for 7-13 years through deception is good.

Removing kids from their life in a country they've lived in for 2 years is cruel and unjust.

Clearly we know which is worse.

[/sarcasm]

When did anyone say removing them from Italy was good? I can't see it anywhere in the thread so maybe you can point me to posts that say the kids shouldn't go back and it was right of the mother to take them in the first place.

And when did two wrongs start making a right?

Clearly if one parent drags the kids away from their home the other parent can do the same? But the second parent is a hero of course and the first a villain.

This thread is becoming irrational.

 

[joesixpack]

You seem obsessed with justice for the father and punishment for the mother. Where do the kids factor in to your argument?

...

I seem obsessed? Why, because I want the parents to do right by their children? I'm not in the slightest concerned that the mother be punished and I wonder why you have this impression.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Italy is no hellhole children would need 'rescuing' from. Australia seems to breed racists readily, hopefully the children will realize that particular training (to hate Italians) is useless.

 

[Matthew Best]

Simply stating that logic is faulty doesn't make it so. You need to demonstrate where it fails.

If lionking didn't demonstrate it, I did. Your logic demands that a just law can never have unjust consequences. That is a logic fail.

 

[Damien Evans]

Italy is no hellhole children would need 'rescuing' from. Australia seems to breed racists readily, hopefully the children will realize that particular training (to hate Italians) is useless.

No more or less than any other place.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Italy is no hellhole children would need 'rescuing' from. Australia seems to breed racists readily, hopefully the children will realize that particular training (to hate Italians) is useless.

Evidence for that over any other diverse nation?

And Italians have a long history in Australia where there is wide appreciation for their cultural contributions.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I seem obsessed? Why, because I want the parents to do right by their children? I'm not in the slightest concerned that the mother be punished and I wonder why you have this impression.

So the scene at the airport, the villa and refusing to let them speak to her on the phone were in the best interests of the children?

I don't know of any parent who would want their kids treated like these girls were. It doesn't seem like the father has done right by them either. But all that seems to matter is that he had the legal right to have them back, so they get dragged away from their home again only this time it is apparently a good thing.

Perhaps their departure could have been slower. They could have been taken by social services a few days before and been spoken to by child psychologists to help calm their fears. Or he could have flown from Australia to Italy with them so they weren't just dragged off and handed to strangers.

The actions of the parents and the legal mess are irrelevant. The issue here is that the police and courts failed spectacularly in looking after these kids.

In the end they had to be returned or children in future custody cases could be jeopardised (if Australia won't return kids to Italy then Italian might not return kids to Australia).

But do you really support dragging them around in such a traumatising manner and failing to take their wishes into account? That is what I can't understand about this thread. Few people are condemning the brawl.

 

[joesixpack]

Perhaps their departure could have been slower. They could have been taken by social services a few days before and been spoken to by child psychologists to help calm their fears. Or he could have flown from Australia to Italy with them so they weren't just dragged off and handed to strangers.

The actions of the parents and the legal mess are irrelevant. The issue here is that the police and courts failed spectacularly in looking after these kids.

In the end they had to be returned or children in future custody cases could be jeopardised (if Australia won't return kids to Italy then Italian might not return kids to Australia).

.

Well, in fairness I must agree on these points. You've presented them very clearly here. I'm certain that the transfer could have been handled in a much more professional way.