LDS

[John Jones]

Such profundity.

If you have a counter-argument, let's hear it. You're a hot-head with nothing to say.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Such profundity.

Might you then, consider profoundly addressing the list of anachronisms from the BoM that you claim have been demonstrated to exist in the pre-Colombian Americas? I am, of course, asking for practical, empirical, real-world evidence, attested to and provided by neutral sources--something beyond a simple chart that makes claims it does not even pretend to support.

You might also consider profoundly addressing your egregious misstatements about what atheists all believe...

 

[DragonLady]

Ughm...excuse me....but...I did my part.

Now the steel, horses, and barley, pretty please?

 

[Sideroxylon]

The "help I'm being oppressed" routine is a nice way to avoid discussion of LDS dogma like the obvious fraud/fantasy in facsimile one, the various North American anachronisms, or perhaps a definition of negro.

Why don't you step up to the plate/crease and boldly defend your faith? If you were certain that you could rationally explain these problems you would but instead you are all about deflection and red herrings.

Still your question did allow me to learn of your church's abhorrent melding in U.S. politics to deny people their basic rights, so cheers for that.

 

[Pup]

Now the steel, horses, and barley, pretty please?

The surprising thing is that right here in this thread, there was evidence presented for barley in the pre-Columbian Americas, from a neutral (non-LDS) source. Don't recall who brought it up or the details--something about a cave in the southwestern US--but I remember commenting on it, and somebody else did too, but Skyrider and Janadele just kinda ignored it, and so did everyone else.

I'm still amazed they're not reminding us of it every time someone asks for evidence. I don't know if it's because it's from one of those evil anti-Mormon sources they don't read (disinterested archaeologists), or evidence just isn't that important to their goals, or what.

"I know we would all like to believe that atheists are happier people than religious believers and in many ways we are. But we also have to accept the reality that in some very important ways we are not"

I think there's a kernal of truth there, but it gets one very basic point wrong. The implication is that all people are alike, and so atheism causes unhappiness. I think it's just the opposite: people are different, so a mismatch between the philosophy and the person causes a problem.

From anecdotal experience, my wife is happier being religious. I'm happier being an atheist. Both of us would be miserable if we were pressured to convert to the other's way of thinking.

So if atheists are to be blamed for adding to unhappiness by trying to take faith away from those who need it, theists should also be blamed for adding unhappiness by trying to induce guilt in people for doing things that cause no harm to others, like not believing in their god, or worse yet, for simply being someone unacceptable, like a "negro."

Theists, I guess, expect atheists to endure being told they're going to hell, or they're less worthy, or they deserve punishment, just as atheists, I guess, expect theists to endure being told the logical contradictions and the ridiculousness of what they believe.

But if we say that the pain of pressuring the wrong people to be religious cancels out the pain of pressuring the wrong people to be free of religion, then we still have another problem.

Atheists can't take any credit, as a group, for trying to end racism or homophobia, but unfortunately religions who support those things can be given some of the blame for adding to that pain. All the GLBT folks who've gotten bullied, beaten up, committed suicide or been killed, and all the black people--sorry, the "negroes"--who've suffered the same, are suffering problems that come squarely from society's attempts to make them feel like lesser human beings, and there are religions who have encouraged their followers to join in, and followers who have done it because they believe they have their god's blessing to do so.

 

[Janadele]

This is the JREF forum.

Yes, and more specifically it is the Religious Section and the LDS thread.

 

[Empress]

Yes, and more specifically it is the Religious Section and the LDS thread.

Yes, and even more specifically that's precisely what we've been discussing for the last 100+ pages.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The surprising thing is that right here in this thread, there was evidence presented for barley in the pre-Columbian Americas, from a neutral (non-LDS) source. Don't recall who brought it up or the details--something about a cave in the southwestern US--but I remember commenting on it, and somebody else did too, but Skyrider and Janadele just kinda ignored it, and so did everyone else.

<snip>

As far back as page 10:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8878984&postcount=361

...which led me to dig up some old notebooks:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8965379&postcount=3199

 

[Myriad]

You believe, therefore, that destroying people's faith is commendable--because that, in essence, is what you're saying.

No faith is required, nor demonstrated, when everyone is applauding your for believing like they do. Real faith cannot be destroyed by denigration or disrespect, or even by outright persecution.

And faith that can be destroyed by the actual facts of the world, or that depends on blind irrational denial of those facts, is faith in false idols.

Is faith in false idols commendable?

Golden plates = golden calf.

 

[Janadele]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Opening Post of this LDS thread.

 

[AdMan]

Actual LDS teachings, Scripture and Doctrine is the topic of this thread. It is not a "rave fest" for personal insults and declarations of agnostic / atheist beliefs. There are other threads and other sections of the Forum for such matters.

See what I mean, skyrider? Janadele has no interest in any kind of mature discussion, and refuses to understand what this forum is about or how it works.

Definitely mock-worthy, as long as the preaching continues.

 

[Astreja]

See what I mean, skyrider? Janadele has no interest in any kind of mature discussion, and refuses to understand what this forum is about or how it works.

Definitely mock-worthy, as long as the preaching continues.

And, IMO, also report-worthy.

 

[Empress]

Actual LDS teachings, Scripture and Doctrine is the topic of this thread. It is not a "rave fest" for personal insults and declarations of agnostic / atheist beliefs. There are other threads and other sections of the Forum for such matters.

No individual owns the thread, and any member in good standing may add their thoughts. If a post violates the MA, it may be reported, and actioned.

So, since this has come up in the last few pages: why did the LDS church violate its own 12th Article of Faith: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law"? They were fined for political malfeasance over their actions on California Prop 8.

 

[Astreja]

I do have a question directly related to LDS teachings, however: How is it that the organization itself can't agree on whether Kolob is a star or a planet?

 

[Slowvehicle]

Actual LDS teachings, Scripture and Doctrine is the topic of this thread. It is not a "rave fest" for personal insults and declarations of agnostic / atheist beliefs. There are other threads and other sections of the Forum for such matters.

...in what way is it insulting to ask you to explain why standard Egyptian funerary texts include (at least according to J.Smith's idiosyncratic and unique translation) Abraham's autographic diary?

You have yet to honestly address your claim that every person who is capable of actually reading hieroglyphics is "lying" if they do not accept J.Smith's demonstrably (I'll use a kind word)...mistaken..."translation".

Why does no-one use J.Smith's "dictionary" of hieroglyphics to translate Egyptian texts? Are all Egyptologists anti-mormon propagandists?

 

[RandFan]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

Opening Post of this LDS thread.

Got evidence?

 

[Craig4]

Please read my questions again. I asked, in effect, if all the charges made against Joseph Smith and the Church are factually correct, why does it matter to you (presumably, you are an atheist). Does the Church threaten you in some way? Do you find it impossible to tolerate someone else's belief system, provided that it doesn't harm anyone?

You want to dwell on errors in the BoM. Why? You have already dismissed it, and you won't accept anything LDS scholars say in its defense. So your motivation is what? To discredit the Church? To dishonor its members? To discount the tremendous amount of humanitarian work it does?



Did that "known conman" swindle you out of "zillions" of dollars?

Since those charges are correct and you've mounted no legitimate defense do you still condone the use of missionaries to tell these lies and get people to join?

 

[abaddon]

Opening Post of this LDS thread.

And still wrong.

 

[Akhenaten]

Opening Post of this LDS thread.

Have you figured out yet why starting a thread here with a fairytale is a really bad idea?

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Threads like this always end this way. skyrider is now a martyr, and he can tell his friends how he valiantly stood up to the Lucifer following people on JREF. He's done his duty, and we will suffer because we didn't listen.