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Pixel42 said:
There was a proselytising thread started by a Mormon on a Doctor Who forum I belong to which had several Christian contributors; one in particular seemed genuinely concerned for the Mormon's soul, as he believed that the LDS was indeed started by Satan as a way to tempt good people into the ultimate blasphemy - believing that they could themselves become gods.
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In Genesis and the Tower of Babel stories, god was afraid of just that:
From the Skeptics Annotated Bible:
Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
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And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
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Janadele said:
Not at all.

My time is too valuable to waste on misrepresentations and lying propaganda.
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And yet here you are, at a site you consider anti-Mormon and riddled with misrepresentations and lying propaganda.

So, were you being less than truthful before when you said you didn't ever visit such places? Why does Satan have so much influence over you?
 
Janadele said:
Not at all.

My time is too valuable to waste on misrepresentations and lying propaganda.
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And yet you can not respond to the questions or accusations, while expecting us to read pro-Mormon sites, and blindly accept them as truth as you do.

You really do make Mormons look really bad.
 
Janadele said:
They should instead have spent their time listening to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5id63Twddk&feature=player_embedded

BYU Broadcasting video production of the title track of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and Orchestra at Temple Square's new album "Praise to the Man." The album is a tribute to the prophet Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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Don't mind it. I am sure exposing Smith's lies was a trifle for such experts, leaving plenty of time for other pursuits, including enjoyment of music.
 
One can learn so much from neutral sites. Up until 1927, the LDS Church had an oath of vengeance requiring participants to agree to be bound by the following oath:
"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."​

I guess they finally figured out Joseph Smith have been dead for some time, and maybe it was time to just let it go....
 
“Except for those willfully blind, the case [regarding the Book of Abraham] is closed.” - Robert K. Ritner, Professor of Egyptology at the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago
 
Akhenaten said:
I don't see how this varies to any significant degree from my original statement in Post #3724 that Smith was practicing wilful deception.
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I think where we're disagreeing (not by much) is the definition of "wilful."

Sure, it's sufficient to dismiss everything Smith did with "LOLscam" and move on, if one's interests lie elsewhere, but I enjoy exploring the nuances of human belief and behavior. Obviously not everyone does, so the following may seem pointless to folks who just want the Cliff Notes version ("It's a scam, don't believe it").

There's "wilful" in the sense of a Nigerian scammer deliberately writing a fake email with the calculated intent of getting some recipients to respond and send him money. He has zero belief that any money exists.

There's "wilful" in the sense that a person claims they can predict the future but when asked to predict the next lottery numbers, they trot out the usual excuses. We see that type here on the JREF as regularly as one can see Nigerians in one's spam filter.

The real reason they make excuses, of course, is that they know they can't actually predict anything testable. Therefore, when they do claim to predict any future event, it's "wilful" fraud.

But I don't think that's necessarily evidence that they thought up a deliberate, calculated fraud from the start, exactly like a Nigerian scammer, and are secretly just as skeptical as anyone on the JREF.

It's also possible they're a complicated mix of believing, knowing it's not true, being almost as gullible as others, and only barely realizing they have no powers.

I saw this with my insane father, when he would try to convince me of crazy things. I could present logical evidence that would convince him briefly that he was wrong, but then he'd be back to believing crazy stuff the next day, despite all logic to the contrary. I don't think the fact that he'd occasionally admit he was wrong, is evidence that he was "wilfully" trying to scam me (in the Nigerian sense) on the other days.

I think it's possible that Smith falls in the latter category more than the Nigerian one. I also think that the people who started the stories about Jesus performing miracles and rising from the dead, could be in that category too, though it's also possible that both they and Smith were complete skeptics themselves and only lying for personal gain.

When self-deceiving people misjudge what challenges they should avoid, the failures are amusing and spectacular, like that well-known video of the martial arts guru who thinks he can magically defend himself, agrees to a challenge match, and gets soundly pummelled.

But the failures are also evidence that people can fool themselves almost as much as they can fool others.

Smith's Book of Abraham translation is like the martial arts guy--oops. But I don't think it's necessarily proof that he was running a deliberate scam and never on any level fooling himself.
 
Pup said:
I think where we're disagreeing (not by much) is the definition of "wilful."

Sure, it's sufficient to dismiss everything Smith did with "LOLscam" and move on, if one's interests lie elsewhere, but I enjoy exploring the nuances of human belief and behavior. Obviously not everyone does, so the following may seem pointless to folks who just want the Cliff Notes version ("It's a scam, don't believe it").

There's "wilful" in the sense of a Nigerian scammer deliberately writing a fake email with the calculated intent of getting some recipients to respond and send him money. He has zero belief that any money exists.

There's "wilful" in the sense that a person claims they can predict the future but when asked to predict the next lottery numbers, they trot out the usual excuses. We see that type here on the JREF as regularly as one can see Nigerians in one's spam filter.

The real reason they make excuses, of course, is that they know they can't actually predict anything testable. Therefore, when they do claim to predict any future event, it's "wilful" fraud.

But I don't think that's necessarily evidence that they thought up a deliberate, calculated fraud from the start, exactly like a Nigerian scammer, and are secretly just as skeptical as anyone on the JREF.

It's also possible they're a complicated mix of believing, knowing it's not true, being almost as gullible as others, and only barely realizing they have no powers.

I saw this with my insane father, when he would try to convince me of crazy things. I could present logical evidence that would convince him briefly that he was wrong, but then he'd be back to believing crazy stuff the next day, despite all logic to the contrary. I don't think the fact that he'd occasionally admit he was wrong, is evidence that he was "wilfully" trying to scam me (in the Nigerian sense) on the other days.

I think it's possible that Smith falls in the latter category more than the Nigerian one. I also think that the people who started the stories about Jesus performing miracles and rising from the dead, could be in that category too, though it's also possible that both they and Smith were complete skeptics themselves and only lying for personal gain.

When self-deceiving people misjudge what challenges they should avoid, the failures are amusing and spectacular, like that well-known video of the martial arts guru who thinks he can magically defend himself, agrees to a challenge match, and gets soundly pummelled.

But the failures are also evidence that people can fool themselves almost as much as they can fool others.

Smith's Book of Abraham translation is like the martial arts guy--oops. But I don't think it's necessarily proof that he was running a deliberate scam and never on any level fooling himself.
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We don't need to psychoanalyze Joe Smith to know that the BoA is false, since Joe wrote it then he told a falsehood.


Trying to shift focus from the facts to the mental state of the perpetrator is a common apologetic tactic.
 
Janadele said:
LOL all anti Mormon sites... which I would never read.
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Obviously. The reason is that you don't really believe. If you did you would have no fear at seeing these sites. That fact that you fear their content means there is at least some recognition that your beliefs are irrational. I see this as a positive first step in your salvation.
 
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