Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

I see the source of misunderstanding. No, Raffaele can break at any time, but I want it to be true that the cops asked him whether she went out 'on the spur of the moment' before they 'discovered' this from her.

Since she did tell the cops she went out well before 1:45 how do you know they asked him before she told them? If you've explained this I apologize in advance.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree and I think everyone with an IQ over 80 agrees that they should have recorded it from the beginning and if not the beginning as soon as she started with her "visions", they should have declared her a suspect and afforded her all the rights associated with that status.

I believe that they firmly believed at the point of starting the interrogation after seeing the SMS or perhaps before, if they had them which I don't think has been verified, they honestly believed she knew something and was covering for someone. I don't believe on the 5th they were of the mind to frame her.

I think every exchange with the cops should be recorded if at all possible, but I don't think a false report should get off because the cops didn't record as a matter of law.

Agreed, but with caveats. Circumstances count a great deal. I just don't see cause for the charge other than somebody has to pay for their screwup.

The charged Amanda because "they screwed the pooch." No other reason.

 

[anglolawyer]

Since she did tell the cops she went out well before 1:45 how do you know they asked him before she told them? If you've explained this I apologize in advance.

It's what he says in his book. It is very clear from his account that he was asked this question before Amanda was even questioned. Like I said, I want it to be true but I don't attach enormous weight to his memory on this point. He wasn't taking notes. Since it fits my theory, I believe him.

 

[Kaosium]

Note the 'should have'. That is the language of constructive knowledge. Now, I don't know kompo nor whether he would revisit this part of the translation because if you change the word 'should' to 'could' then the meaning changes quite a bit.

But Hellman is not here discussing whether knowledge is actual or constructive for the purposes of this offence. He is only refuting the prosecution argument that the only way she could know Lumumba was innocent was if she committed the crime herself. The prosecution is actually saying it's either aggravated calunnia or nothing. Fine, in that case we'll take nothing.

Yes, I recall getting the impression when reading it that Hellmann didn't make a strong case for her guilt for the calunnia conviction. I still suspect it was a politically palatable decision so as to (temporarily) relieve the police of any suspicion of wrongdoing, as that would probably be more acceptable to the lay judges who had to live in the town with the Polizia di Stato and would rather blame Amanda than their own 'thin blue line' for any 'mistakes' made in the investigation.

I do think the defense makes a valid point that the police damn well should have known better, and there's plenty of documentation from Amanda on that point as well.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes, I recall getting the impression when reading it that Hellmann didn't make a strong case for her guilt for the calunnia conviction. I still suspect it was a politically palatable decision so as to (temporarily) relieve the police of any suspicion of wrongdoing, as that would probably be more acceptable to the lay judges who had to live in the town with the Polizia di Stato and would rather blame Amanda than their own 'thin blue line' for any 'mistakes' made in the investigation.

I do think the defense makes a valid point that the police damn well should have known better, and there's plenty of documentation from Amanda on that point as well.

Which means you are prepared to accept that in some degree Hellman was not acting as a judge should and was taking into account extraneous factors, in which case the PGPs are right that the whole thing was tainted by corruption.

 

[Kaosium]

Which means you are prepared to accept that in some degree Hellman was not acting as a judge should and was taking into account extraneous factors, in which case the PGPs are right that the whole thing was tainted by corruption.

You're too good for this world, Anglo! Have I ever told you about a place just hours from here called 'Chicago?'

I suspect that Hellmann, Zanetti and the lay judges collectively came to the conclusion that Amanda and Raffaele were innocent of murder but decided not to blame the police for it when the option of finding Amanda guilty of calunnia existed, especially when it was dubious that charge should ever have been heard by that court in the first place. Thus perhaps the lay judges insisted and Hellmann and Zanetti didn't try to dissuade them knowing it would probably be struck down by the Supreme Court.

 

[anglolawyer]

You're too good for this world, Anglo! Have I ever told you about a place just hours from here called 'Chicago?'

I think I've heard of it. I used to watch Elliot Ness and The Untouchables after the soccer programme late on Saturday nights when I was in my teens. Taught me not to opt for the gangster's life. All those drive-by machine gun shootings were not for me.

I suspect that Hellmann, Zanetti and the lay judges collectively came to the conclusion that Amanda and Raffaele were innocent of murder but decided not to blame the police for it when the option of finding Amanda guilty of calunnia existed, especially when it was dubious that charge should ever have been heard by that court in the first place. Thus perhaps the lay judges insisted and Hellmann and Zanetti didn't try to dissuade them knowing it would probably be struck down by the Supreme Court.

This may very well be true but if they played fast and loose with the law and with Miss Knox's reputation in this manner they did not serve justice well. I do hope it is all part of a master plan to make such a bad decision that Cassazione must overrule but there is so much uncertainty about the precise meaning of article 368(2) of the code that I really can't form an opinion.

 

[Kaosium]

I think I've heard of it. I used to watch Elliot Ness and The Untouchables after the soccer programme late on Saturday nights when I was in my teens. Taught me not to opt for the gangster's life. All those drive-by machine gun shootings were not for me.

Oh, that was just good clean violence, there's more to Chicago than that I assure you!

This may very well be true but if they played fast and loose with the law and with Miss Knox's reputation in this manner they did not serve justice well. I do hope it is all part of a master plan to make such a bad decision that Cassazione must overrule but there is so much uncertainty about the precise meaning of article 368(2) of the code that I really can't form an opinion.

I can't know for sure, of course, but it was a solution that worked out nicely for most parties, outside Amanda's of course, and she did get released immediately. It will irritate the hell out of me if they uphold that conviction, my fear is they might have to remand both cases to another trial, while my hope is they can just do so with the calunnia and it will just never be tried again, with the murder acquittal being confirmed.

 

[Didaktylos]

There was probably also an element of "make those overpaid chair-warmers at Cassazione actually do some work."

 

[anglolawyer]

Oh, that was just good clean violence, there's more to Chicago than that I assure you!

Oh yeah. Blagoyevich. Now I remember. LOL.

I can't know for sure, of course, but it was a solution that worked out nicely for most parties, outside Amanda's of course, and she did get released immediately. It will irritate the hell out of me if they uphold that conviction, my fear is they might have to remand both cases to another trial, while my hope is they can just do so with the calunnia and it will just never be tried again, with the murder acquittal being confirmed.

Well, fingers crossed. Hellman's oft misquoted statement afterwards about how we can never know the real truth also struck a jarring note about what was going on in that appeal court, but that might be a cultural thing. There is no way you would ever get a peep out of a UK judge about a case, not before they settled down to write their memoirs anyway.

 

[Kaosium]

There was probably also an element of "make those overpaid chair-warmers at Cassazione actually do some work."

Heh.

Oh yeah. Blagoyevich. Now I remember. LOL.

He was just the fourth of the last seven of Illinois Governors and:

<...>
Chicago, they conclude, has the dubious distinction of being the federal district with the most convictions since 1976.

Since then, 1,828 elected officials, appointees, government employees and a few private individuals have been convicted of corruption in Illinois, and 84% of these were in its Northern District—a judicial zone which contains the entire Chicago metropolitan area. During this time around one-third of the city's aldermen have been convicted of corruption.
<...>

It's cultural.

Did you ever see Paul Ciolino's video when he investigated this show for Crimesider, or whichever one it was? He ran into someone from his hometown...of Chicago. Later on he's talking with Captain Clueless, Eduardo Giobbi, and afterwards having heard the 'evidence' they had against Amanda he comes across as saying he's from Chicago, he knows how it goes. Incidentally Ciolino is perhaps more responsible than anyone else for halting the implementation of the death penalty in Illinois due to his investigations for another media outlet.

Well, fingers crossed. Hellman's oft misquoted statement afterwards about how we can never know the real truth also struck a jarring note about what was going on in that appeal court, but that might be a cultural thing. There is no way you would ever get a peep out of a UK judge about a case, not before they settled down to write their memoirs anyway.

I got the impression, once the full quote was available, that he was just noting that no court can ever create a perfect representation of what occurred, it just was used out of context by some who wished to save face having really made fools of themselves. His report is pretty clear on what he thought of the Massei verdict in my view.

 

[Grinder]

Fascinating that there is a lawyer that is too good for this world -

What do you all think was the substance that produced the luminol discovered footprints in the cottage? Not the shoe-prints.

 

[anglolawyer]

Fascinating that there is a lawyer that is too good for this world -

What do you all think was the substance that produced the luminol discovered footprints in the cottage? Not the shoe-prints.

Undoubtedly blood from the victim walked around the apartment by Amanda in her bare feet - or possibly something else. What do you think the negative TMB tests suggest it was?

 

[Kaosium]

Undoubtedly blood from the victim walked around the apartment by Amanda in her bare feet - or possibly something else. What do you think the negative TMB tests suggest it was?

Bleach, or a cleaner containing it.

 

[anglolawyer]

Bleach, or a cleaner containing it.

Or - anything but blood. Grinder? What about you?

 

[acbytesla]

You're too good for this world, Anglo! Have I ever told you about a place just hours from here called 'Chicago?'

I suspect that Hellmann, Zanetti and the lay judges collectively came to the conclusion that Amanda and Raffaele were innocent of murder but decided not to blame the police for it when the option of finding Amanda guilty of calunnia existed, especially when it was dubious that charge should ever have been heard by that court in the first place. Thus perhaps the lay judges insisted and Hellmann and Zanetti didn't try to dissuade them knowing it would probably be struck down by the Supreme Court.

You think the lay judges insisted? And you think the Supreme Court will overturn the calunnia decision? I can't help to think that the Supreme Court will let everything stand as it does.

The callunia conviction is a warning to the people NOT to question authority. Upholding the system so to speak. But with little effect on the individuals involved as the sentences already have been served. In addition, overturning the callunia conviction will mean that Amanda and Raffaele both would have been unjustly incarcerated. Letting every thing stand as it is, will help let the air out of the controversy.

But then again, this case has International attention, Honor Bound is a best seller and Amanda's book will be a best seller the day it hits the stands. The pub from this case will last a long time.

BTW: Do you know? Does Italy have any mechanism to compensate suspects for wrongful imprisonment?

 

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by anglolawyer
Undoubtedly blood from the victim walked around the apartment by Amanda in her bare feet - or possibly something else. What do you think the negative TMB tests suggest it was?
Bleach, or a cleaner containing it.

Bleach, or a cleaner containing it.

I've read it could be hundreds of substances. Any guess is as good as the next one. The negative TMB tests confirm that it is NOT Blood, but of course I've read PGP posts that TMB isn't that reliable and that it couldn't be bleach as bleach would have dissipated by the time the luminol was applied and there were no products that contained bleach in the household.

But, I don't believe everything I read on the Internet. But hey, that's just me.

 

[Kaosium]

You think the lay judges insisted? And you think the Supreme Court will overturn the calunnia decision? I can't help to think that the Supreme Court will let everything stand as it does.

The callunia conviction is a warning to the people NOT to question authority. Upholding the system so to speak. But with little effect on the individuals involved as the sentences already have been served. In addition, overturning the callunia conviction will mean that Amanda and Raffaele both would have been unjustly incarcerated. Letting every thing stand as it is, will help let the air out of the controversy.

I have the same fears, however I also have hopes that the most objective view may come away from Perugia, I do suspect that had an impact on the last verdict, the lay judges had to live there, with that police force. It's easy for me to see how they might come to the conclusion that they'd rather blame her than their police force for various reasons.

But then again, this case has International attention, Honor Bound is a best seller and Amanda's book will be a best seller the day it hits the stands. The pub from this case will last a long time.

BTW: Do you know? Does Italy have any mechanism to compensate suspects for wrongful imprisonment?

Good to hear about "Honor Bound" I was unaware that it was a best seller, I just asked for it when a relative wanted gift suggestions.

Yes Italy has a mechanism for compensating victims of wrongful imprisonment. It's a pittance, but then you can also go to the ECHR and make a claim for lots more.

 

[acbytesla]

I have the same fears, however I also have hopes that the most objective view may come away from Perugia, I do suspect that had an impact on the last verdict, the lay judges had to live there, with that police force. It's easy for me to see how they might come to the conclusion that they'd rather blame her than their police force for various reasons.



Good to hear about "Honor Bound" I was unaware that it was a best seller, I just asked for it when a relative wanted gift suggestions.

Yes Italy has a mechanism for compensating victims of wrongful imprisonment. It's a pittance, but then you can also go to the ECHR and make a claim for lots more.

What is the ECHR? And what is the process? God only knows how much in legal bills Amanda and Raffaele's family spent, not to mention just their time in prison. But they are the lucky ones. (if you could say that being wrongfully incarcerated for 4 years as lucky) The books etc. will defray those costs as well as help provide them with a few dollars.

 

[anglolawyer]

What is the ECHR? And what is the process? God only knows how much in legal bills Amanda and Raffaele's family spent, not to mention just their time in prison. But they are the lucky ones. (if you could say that being wrongfully incarcerated for 4 years as lucky) The books etc. will defray those costs as well as help provide them with a few dollars.

European Court of Human Rights. A prisoner here got £600 as compensation for a 13 month delay to his parole hearing*

* Thanks to rocket scientist Dan O. for teaching me how to do these cool links.