Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[quadraginta]

The hilited word ... I do not think it means what you think it means ...

Circumstantial evidence shows that it took TM approximately 45 minutes to walk a half mile. Which is approximately 3 times longer than it would take an average person at normal walking speed.

I'm not sure you do, either.

What is "normal walking speed" for a teenager ambling along chatting with his girlfriend? Do you have charts? Surveys? 8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows?

I have no idea what "normal walking speed" is for a kid talking to his girl on a cell phone, but I'm relatively confident that it isn't as fast as "normal walking speed" for someone just returning home from an errand at the corner store.

I agree with Dan O. that the elapsed time is possibly meaningless, but not for the same reasons. It's meaningless because there is no useful metric to compare to. He wasn't just walking home. He was walking home while he was doing something else, and that something is almost a cliche when it comes to teenagers using up time.

 

[Alt+F4]

Circumstantial evidence shows that it took TM approximately 45 minutes to walk a half mile. Which is approximately 3 times longer than it would take an average person at normal walking speed.

Where are the statistics regarding what "normal walking speed" is? What is an "average person"? What government agency determines this? You are writing nonsense.

I'm not a teenager but I know that I walk much slower when I'm talking on my cell phone.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm not sure you do, either.

What is "normal walking speed" for a teenager ambling along chatting with his girlfriend? Do you have charts? Surveys? 8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows?

And a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one is ...

I have no idea what "normal walking speed" is for a kid talking to his girl on a cell phone, but I'm relatively confident that it isn't as fast as "normal walking speed" for someone just returning home from an errand at the corner store.

Me neither. But clearly the speed with which TM was walking was much slower than normal, much slower than "someone just returning home from an errand at the corner store.", someone who may want to get out of the rain, as most people do.

The time it took was brought up in the context of my elaborating on what GZ may have found suspicious about TM:

He didn't get permission to go to 7-eleven as mumbles claimed. He tried to buy something that required ID. TM took 40 minutes to walk half a mile, in the rain. That seems to me to be much slower than 'casually walking'. He was talking on his BT headset with his hood up - to someone that didn't know he was on the phone, that may have looked odd or out of place.

Since GZ didn't know it was a teenager ambling along chatting with his girlfriend it seemed not unreasonable to me that he may found TM suspicious r looking out of place for walking casually, and not trying to get out of the rain.

I agree with Dan O. that the elapsed time is possibly meaningless, but not for the same reasons. It's meaningless because there is no useful metric to compare to. He wasn't just walking home. He was walking home while he was doing something else, and that something is almost a cliche when it comes to teenagers using up time.

Dan seems to claiming my estimate of time is meaningless because it has not been proven to be exact. I feel comfortable in assuming the clock is close to correct, and the approximate time of 45 minutes is useful, even if not exact.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Highly unlikely. It's already been established that Martin was no angel. I doubt O'Mara is attempting to counter a claim the prosecution already can't make.

What's more likely is that O'Mara just wants to drag Martin's name through the mud in the media. The more unlikable he can make Martin look, the more people might forget how unlikable his client is.

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/pr...ense-receives-trayvon-martin-s-school-records

The Zimmerman defense received the school records of Trayvon Martin, as ordered by Judge Nelson...

Trayvon Martin’s school records are protected, and they should not become part of the public record. We will not post them on our website. If any detail of the school records should be considered relevant in the course of a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing, only the parts deemed relevant to the case will be entered into evidence.

A number of parties have expressed concern that we will use information found in the school records to “demonize” Trayvon Martin. The Zimmerman defense has no intention to demonize Trayvon Martin. While we believe that George Zimmerman has been unjustly demonized as a racist and a murderer by those who saw benefit in doing so, nothing would justify a reciprocal attack on the character and memory of Trayvon Martin.

 

[Dan O.]

Dan seems to claiming my estimate of time is meaningless because it has not been proven to be exact. I feel comfortable in assuming the clock is close to correct, and the approximate time of 45 minutes is useful, even if not exact.

Your claim of 45 minutes is garbage. You are assuming that the stores clock is synchronized without any documentation to support that view. If you tried to present this in court it would be thrown out for lack of chain of evidence.

I claim based on the evidence I have already presented that the time from when Trayvon was seen walking away from the store till when George begins his call to the SPD NEN is close to 20 minutes.

 

[leftysergeant]

So, unless there is a verifiable record of Martin's having been arrested for assaulting someone under school supervisiopn and jurisdiction, none of his records should ever be made public, because they would be irrelevant to whether or not he tried to clean some pervert's clock, as kids are taught that they should do if it comes down to that. If MOM releases anything else, he should be disbarred. Only if it is proven that he was an out-of-control maniac does any of it have any bearing on the case.

The defense is still stuck with the fact that there is not a mark on Z consistant with his having been punched, and the owies on the backl of his head still look more like the imprint of his own gun than like road rash from being beaten on the concrete.

 

[Unabogie]

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/pr...ense-receives-trayvon-martin-s-school-records

The Zimmerman defense received the school records of Trayvon Martin, as ordered by Judge Nelson...

Trayvon Martin’s school records are protected, and they should not become part of the public record. We will not post them on our website. If any detail of the school records should be considered relevant in the course of a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing, only the parts deemed relevant to the case will be entered into evidence.

A number of parties have expressed concern that we will use information found in the school records to “demonize” Trayvon Martin. The Zimmerman defense has no intention to demonize Trayvon Martin. While we believe that George Zimmerman has been unjustly demonized as a racist and a murderer by those who saw benefit in doing so, nothing would justify a reciprocal attack on the character and memory of Trayvon Martin.

Zimmerman is no racist. He just hates Mexicans and thinks black people are suspicious. And he is not a murderer. He's just been unjustly demonized as murderer after he killed that kid, which is like, totally uncool.

But who are we to judge? George going to prison must be part of God's plan.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Where are the statistics regarding what "normal walking speed" is? What is an "average person"? What government agency determines this? You are writing nonsense.

I'm not a teenager but I know that I walk much slower when I'm talking on my cell phone.

If you think it's nonsense, argue with wikipedia, not me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking
Although walking speeds can vary greatly depending on factors such as height, weight, age, terrain, surface, load, culture, effort, and fitness, the average human walking speed is about 5.0 kilometres per hour (km/h), or about 3.1 miles per hour (mph).

And my point was regarding how slow TM was walking, so ... thanks for agreeing ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Defendant's supplemental notice of reciprocal discovery

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0113/defendant_supplemental_discovery.pdf

The defense has filed DEFENDANT’S SUPPLEMENTAL NOTICE OF RECIPROCAL DISCOVERY. The notice cites several items found in the records of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement that had not previously been disclosed or furnished to the defense. Once these items have been redacted we will post them to our website.

Some potentially interesting things, including Sams club video, kohls parking lot video...

 

[johnny karate]

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/pr...ense-receives-trayvon-martin-s-school-records

The Zimmerman defense received the school records of Trayvon Martin, as ordered by Judge Nelson...

Trayvon Martin’s school records are protected, and they should not become part of the public record. We will not post them on our website. If any detail of the school records should be considered relevant in the course of a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing, only the parts deemed relevant to the case will be entered into evidence.

A number of parties have expressed concern that we will use information found in the school records to “demonize” Trayvon Martin. The Zimmerman defense has no intention to demonize Trayvon Martin. While we believe that George Zimmerman has been unjustly demonized as a racist and a murderer by those who saw benefit in doing so, nothing would justify a reciprocal attack on the character and memory of Trayvon Martin.

I certainly hope that either I am wrong about O'Mara's motivations, or that he responded appropriately to the backlash.

Of course, it remains to be seen if O'Mara holds true to his claimed intention. Let's hope nothing gets "leaked".

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Store video time of Trayvon leaving 18:24 till Zimmerman's call to SPD 19:09 would be 45 minutes. But there is a problem in that you are comparing the times on two different clocks and there is nothing to assert that the clocks are synchronized.

There is a document that shows the police had acquired the surveillance video by late march:

Zimmerman-documents.pdf page 70
2012-03-29 (SA) Dale Crosby conducted a recorded, sworn interview with [store clerk]
stated that he did not remember Martin being in the store.
was shown a video of Martim at the counter
stated he did not remember his interaction with Martin.
​

But this does not cover the actual acquisition of the video or the verification of the camera's time.

If there were a common event measured by both clocks, that would help establish the synchronization. Looking at the video again:

http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-7-11-surveillance-video-night-shooting/

While the cashier is counting the change, trayvon makes moves that could be reaching for the controls on his phone and in the audio is heard what sounds like "hello, hello". TM's left hand is in his pocket viewed from back right camera. (time: 18:23:57)

And also from the prosecutions documents:

Zimmerman-documents.pdf page 36
2012-04-02 T.C. O'Steen Interview with dee-dee in Miami
"… had talked with him on the cell phone several times on the date of the incident." "The Victim left the store and the phone disconnected. She then called back and the Victim was walking and said it was starting to rain."​

This seems to establish that there was an event that could be timed by both the store video clock and the clock of trayvon's phone provider. But if we assume that the clocks are synchronized, the times do not line up:

11:13 Hollywood text
11:15 North Dade text
11:18 North Dade text
13:30 Miami text
14:20 - 14:23	Incoming 3
14:38 - 16:21	Incoming 103
14:45 - 14:47	Incoming 2
15:02 - 15:04	Incoming 2
15:04 - 15:07	Incoming 3
16:08 North Dade text
16:28 - 17:09	North Dade Incoming 41
17:09 - 18:30	North Dade Incoming 81
[B]18:23:57 -- Call disconnected while Trayvon is at checkout
[/B]18:30 - 18:43	North Dade Incoming 13
18:41 - 18:45	Incoming 4
18:45 - 18:50	North Dade Incoming 5
18:46 - 18:48	North Dade Incoming 2
18:49 - 18:53	Incoming 4
18:53 - 18:54	North Dade Incoming 1
18:54 - 18:55	North Dade Incoming 1
18:54 - 19:12	Incoming 18
19:04 - 19:05	Incoming 1
19:09:34 -- George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck
19:11:33 -- Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
19:12 - 19:16	Incoming 4
19:16:55 -- Gunshot heard on 911 call

So, not only is there no evidence presented that the clocks between the store video and the police dispatcher are synchronized, there is evidence that indicates that they are not. Until these clocks can be corrected, comparing times between them is meaningless.

Your claim of 45 minutes is garbage. You are assuming that the stores clock is synchronized without any documentation to support that view. If you tried to present this in court it would be thrown out for lack of chain of evidence.

I claim based on the evidence I have already presented that the time from when Trayvon was seen walking away from the store till when George begins his call to the SPD NEN is close to 20 minutes.

You are going to have to walk me through your evidence. You seem to be basing everything on the hilited statement and the cell phone bill ( http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf ) expecting DeeDee story to line up ??

Here is what she told BDLR:
http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/deedeestatetranscript.pdf
BDLR: And now was this a continuous phone call, or were there times when you would stop and
then call each other back?
Dee Dee: Yeah, but the phone was actin’ up.

What does a yes answer mean in response to an 'A or B' question ? Yes it was a continuous call, but the phone was acting up ? Or yes, we would stop and call each other back, but the phone was acting up - does that even make sense?

BDLR: OK, alright, OK, and we’ve got all the phone records that would establish that, so I’m not
going to ask you details as to what specific times. But, what I wanted to cover with you is when
he left the store, did he mention something about that at that time whether it was raining or not?
Dee Dee: Like, when he come home, or..?
BDLR: Yeah, tell what happened as he’s talking to you when he’s leaving the store…on his way
back home.
Dee Dee: When he was leaving the store, he just told me that he bought drinks…and it about to
rain.
BDLR: OK, and then what?
Dee Dee: It about to rain..he about to get to…inside a thing. It started raining.

So what happened to the phone disconnecting, like she told T.C. O'Steen ?
Because, according to this statement she made to BDLR:

BDLR: It started raining, and did he go somewhere?
Dee Dee: Yeah. He ran to the um…mail thing.
BDLR: Like…I’m sorry…what?
Dee Dee: Like the mail…like a shed…
BDLR: Like a shed…like a mail area…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: Like a covered area…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: Because it was raining?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: So, did he tell you that he was already inside, like the gated place?
Dee Dee: Yeah, he ran in there.
BDLR: OK…
Dee Dee: That’s when the phone hung up…
BDLR: OK, I’m sorry..
Dee Dee: The phone hung up, and I call him back again.

And that would line right up with about any of those calls at 6:45 or 6:46.

I think your "theory" of the call hanging up in the store is garbage.

And to directly address this part:

Your claim of 45 minutes is garbage. You are assuming that the stores clock is synchronized without any documentation to support that view. If you tried to present this in court it would be thrown out for lack of chain of evidence.

I am not in a position to obtain 'documentation' to support my view that the clocks are synchronized, nor am presenting anything in court.

I am discussing a case on an Internet forum. I think it's reasonable to assume the security camera clock is reasonably accurate. If want to disagree because I can't prove the time-stamp is accurate, that's your prerogative.

Of course, if you find DeeDees statement so compelling, it's curious that she thought TM was rushing home to finish watching a game that hadn't started yet ....

Dee Dee: Yeah, and he told me he ready to go home and watch…finish watching the game.
BDLR: The game?
Dee Dee: Yeah, he left his little brother, so he trying to rush and…
BDLR: Rushing to go back home and watch the game?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: Did you know what he was talking about when he was talking about a game?
Dee Dee: Yeah…he talking..
BDLR: What was he talking about?
Dee Dee: Oh, I think the…basket, basket…basketball…
BDLR: Basketball?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: I think that was like the All-Star Game?
Dee Dee: Yeah. That one. I didn’t really care, but…

 

[Dan O.]

I am discussing a case on an Internet forum. I think it's reasonable to assume the security camera clock is reasonably accurate.

You are making a claim and your claim is dependent on the stores CCTV clock being accurate. There is no reason for this clock to be accurate. Nobody is looking at this time unless the video is needed as evidence and then they have to verify the time against a standard anyhow.

If want to disagree because I can't prove the time-stamp is accurate, that's your prerogative.

It's not that I want to disagree. I question everything and follow up by looking for supporting or contradicting evidence. Much earlier in this thread I questioned the accuracy of T-mobile's time. I believe someone tested this by making calls at known times then checking their call log.

[IMGL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=868&pictureid=7268[/IMGL]You made the claim that Trayvon was walking suspiciously slowly so I went to see if that could be supported. I had remembered some blogger had reported that Trayvon had answered a call while at the store. I reviewed the video and confirmed that Trayvon is accessing the controls for his phone while the audio sound like he is saying "hello, hello" (see the wired controls of the headset in the enhanced image from the video). At that time according to the CCTV timestamp there is no call beginning or ending. This says that the CCTV time is likely wrong and I haven't even touched Dee Dee's statement yet.

Of course, if you find DeeDees statement so compelling, it's curious that she thought TM was rushing home to finish watching a game that hadn't started yet ....

I used Dee Dee's statement to determine which of the gaps in the phone record best correlated to TM's action in the store. The 18:48 to 18:54 gap fits very well. Dee Dee said he was leaving the store when the phone cut out and checking out is the process of leaving. She says Trayvon was walking and it was raining when she called back. According to the three amigos, it was raining heavily when they passed Trayvon and entered the store. The call back at 18:54 would be about the time Trayvon just started walking home after waiting for the rain to subside.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You are making a claim and your claim is dependent on the stores CCTV clock being accurate. There is no reason for this clock to be accurate. Nobody is looking at this time unless the video is needed as evidence and then they have to verify the time against a standard anyhow.

A lot of assumptions on your part as well. Again, I think it makes sense to assume the time stamp is accurate, exactly because it might be used as evidence. It only makes sense to me to assume that it is correct until shown otherwise. You are assuming the times on the t-mobile bill are correct. Where is the proof of that ?

It's not that I want to disagree. I question everything and follow up by looking for supporting or contradicting evidence. Much earlier in this thread I questioned the accuracy of T-mobile's time. I believe someone tested this by making calls at known times then checking their call log.

This is supposed to be a skeptics forum, so that's fine. If you want to stop here - I admit I cannot prove much of anything about the events at 7-11. I cannot prove the surveillance camera time is accurate. I am drawing inferences from the evidence. But honestly, I didn't think that a claim that he walked home really slowly from 7-11 would be controversial.

You made the claim that Trayvon was walking suspiciously slowly so I went to see if that could be supported. I had remembered some blogger had reported that Trayvon had answered a call while at the store. I reviewed the video and confirmed that Trayvon is accessing the controls for his phone while the audio sound like he is saying "hello, hello" (see the wired controls of the headset in the enhanced image from the video). At that time according to the CCTV timestamp there is no call beginning or ending. This says that the CCTV time is likely wrong and I haven't even touched Dee Dee's statement yet.

It's certainly not clear or apparent that is what is going on.That's your interpretation of what he is doing. I watched the video and I don't agree.

I used Dee Dee's statement to determine which of the gaps in the phone record best correlated to TM's action in the store. The 18:48 to 18:54 gap fits very well. Dee Dee said he was leaving the store when the phone cut out and checking out is the process of leaving. She says Trayvon was walking and it was raining when she called back. According to the three amigos, it was raining heavily when they passed Trayvon and entered the store. The call back at 18:54 would be about the time Trayvon just started walking home after waiting for the rain to subside.

You chose hearsay over DeeDee's actual statement. In her own words, she was talking to him as he left, and clearly didn't get disconnected and call him back until later.

BDLR: Yeah, tell what happened as he’s talking to you when he’s leaving the store…on his way back home.
Dee Dee: When he was leaving the store, he just told me that he bought drinks…and it about to rain.
BDLR: OK, and then what?
Dee Dee: It about to rain..he about to get to…inside a thing. It started raining.
...
BDLR: So, did he tell you that he was already inside, like the gated place?
Dee Dee: Yeah, he ran in there.
BDLR: OK…
Dee Dee: That’s when the phone hung up…
BDLR: OK, I’m sorry..
Dee Dee: The phone hung up, and I call him back again.


Side note: i can't wait to find out about the real DeeDee - is she 16, 18 ? BDLR did a craptastic job questioning her. Unless his intention was to establish almost no facts, then he did a fine job.

I think you need to re-evaluate in light of DeeDees actual statement, not hearsay. Because it has been pointed out to me that hearsay is a bad thing.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I certainly hope that either I am wrong about O'Mara's motivations, or that he responded appropriately to the backlash.

Of course, it remains to be seen if O'Mara holds true to his claimed intention. Let's hope nothing gets "leaked".

If something like TMs grades gets "leaked", does that prove or say something about MOM ?

 

[Dan O.]

A lot of assumptions on your part as well. Again, I think it makes sense to assume the time stamp is accurate, exactly because it might be used as evidence. It only makes sense to me to assume that it is correct until shown otherwise. You are assuming the times on the t-mobile bill are correct. Where is the proof of that ?

If you don't like my timeline, present your own. The reason we only get partial snippets of facts from you is that your facts don't hold together.

My assumptions: I assume that the dispatcher time is accurate. There is no physical reason for this to be so but the dispatch tapes are regularly used by the police to establish times of events. We can also find confirmation that dispatchers in general have the correct time. Do I need to tell you how you could do this?

I assume that the T-Mobile call log time is accurate. T-Mobile has differential rates for prime vs non-prime times. If T-Mobile did not keep their clocks in sync they would draw significant bitching from the users. I also remember someone testing the times that were being logged when this was being discussed back about May last year.

Store security cameras have no necessity of being accurate and it's much easier to just let them run and drift rather than having employees periodically adjust the time which then requires them to keep a log of each time it's adjusted. The best practices for law enforcement collecting CCTV video already says to record the time on the camera and a standard reference time. Even the local police in a small Italian college town know that they need to do this (They screw it up but at least they try).

But as I said before, this is all about your claim so the burden of poof is on you. Why don't you stop in to your local 7-11 and just ask what their corporate policy is in regards to the CCTV time?

This is supposed to be a skeptics forum, so that's fine. If you want to stop here - I admit I cannot prove much of anything about the events at 7-11. I cannot prove the surveillance camera time is accurate. I am drawing inferences from the evidence. But honestly, I didn't think that a claim that he walked home really slowly from 7-11 would be controversial.

So you're saying that you thought you could just slip it in as proof that Trayvon was acting suspiciously and nobody would question it.

It's certainly not clear or apparent that is what is going on.That's your interpretation of what he is doing. I watched the video and I don't agree.

Are you just watching this video online? Sometimes it's necessary to slow the video down or even single step the frames to see what's going on. Have you even acknowledged that you were incorrect when you earlier said that Trayvon was using a bluetooth headset? Can you see the headset cord flopping in front of Trayvon's hoodie? Why is it that you cannot see Trayvon's hand reach up, grab the control and push the button? Do you even have the full resolution video with all 4 cameras?

You chose hearsay over DeeDee's actual statement. In her own words, she was talking to him as he left, and clearly didn't get disconnected and call him back until later.

How many times did the phone disconnect? You seem to want to imply that because Dee Dee is saying that the phone disconnected at the mailboxes it couldn't have disconnected at the store.


BDLR: Yeah, tell what happened as he’s talking to you when he’s leaving the store…on his way back home.
Dee Dee: When he was leaving the store, he just told me that he bought drinks…and it about to rain.
BDLR: OK, and then what?
Dee Dee: It about to rain..he about to get to…inside a thing. It started raining.
...
BDLR: So, did he tell you that he was already inside, like the gated place?
Dee Dee: Yeah, he ran in there.
BDLR: OK…
Dee Dee: That’s when the phone hung up…
BDLR: OK, I’m sorry..
Dee Dee: The phone hung up, and I call him back again.


Side note: i can't wait to find out about the real DeeDee - is she 16, 18 ? BDLR did a craptastic job questioning her. Unless his intention was to establish almost no facts, then he did a fine job.[/QUOTE]


Bernie might be revealing more about what he knows about the timing. I agree, it's no way to conduct an interview when trying to collect independent observations.

I think you need to re-evaluate in light of DeeDees actual statement, not hearsay. Because it has been pointed out to me that hearsay is a bad thing.

I will. I'll use Bernie's statements instead. At the time of this interview, he already had the store video and had lined up the times of the call interruptions.


BTW: In the T-Mobile call logs, times of voice calls are converted to the subscribers local timezone but times for data and text are left as Pacific time.

 

[Mumbles]

Where are the statistics regarding what "normal walking speed" is? What is an "average person"? What government agency determines this? You are writing nonsense.

I'm not a teenager but I know that I walk much slower when I'm talking on my cell phone.

For that matter, what if Martin simply liked being in the rain? That's surely no reason for some random person to flip out and start pursuing you at night...

 

[Mumbles]

You are making a claim and your claim is dependent on the stores CCTV clock being accurate. There is no reason for this clock to be accurate. Nobody is looking at this time unless the video is needed as evidence and then they have to verify the time against a standard anyhow.[/quoe]

What If interesting, is that none of this matters. I've seen the footage of Trayvon Martin at the 7-11, and there's nothing incriminating about it. He
he was just standing around, in warm clothes, in winter. It's sometimes amusing how far some white people in the US will be enraged by black people just walking down the street - but in other cases, it's very noticeable. And it's very noticeable in this case.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

If you don't like my timeline, present your own. The reason we only get partial snippets of facts from you is that your facts don't hold together.

My assumptions: I assume that the dispatcher time is accurate. There is no physical reason for this to be so but the dispatch tapes are regularly used by the police to establish times of events. We can also find confirmation that dispatchers in general have the correct time. Do I need to tell you how you could do this?

I assume that the T-Mobile call log time is accurate. T-Mobile has differential rates for prime vs non-prime times. If T-Mobile did not keep their clocks in sync they would draw significant bitching from the users. I also remember someone testing the times that were being logged when this was being discussed back about May last year.

Store security cameras have no necessity of being accurate and it's much easier to just let them run and drift rather than having employees periodically adjust the time which then requires them to keep a log of each time it's adjusted.

I disagree with your claim above, and think you are just poisoning the well. It's in the stores best interest to have the times be accurate. And why would it not be accurate to begin with, anyway ?

The best practices for law enforcement collecting CCTV video already says to record the time on the camera and a standard reference time. Even the local police in a small Italian college town know that they need to do this (They screw it up but at least they try).

So then we should assume SPD knows how for off, if any, the 7-11 camera time is, or do you assume they didn't do that ?

But as I said before, this is all about your claim so the burden of poof is on you. Why don't you stop in to your local 7-11 and just ask what their corporate policy is in regards to the CCTV time?

Because I don't care that much ? In case you missed it:

I cannot prove the surveillance camera time is accurate. I am drawing inferences from the evidence.

So you're saying that you thought you could just slip it in as proof that Trayvon was acting suspiciously and nobody would question it.

When you start out with 'so you're saying' it is likely what follows is a bunch of nonsense. See above, for example. That is not what I was saying. But at least you agree that taking 40 minutes to walk that distance home is suspicious.

Are you just watching this video online? Sometimes it's necessary to slow the video down or even single step the frames to see what's going on. Have you even acknowledged that you were incorrect when you earlier said that Trayvon was using a bluetooth headset? Can you see the headset cord flopping in front of Trayvon's hoodie? Why is it that you cannot see Trayvon's hand reach up, grab the control and push the button? Do you even have the full resolution video with all 4 cameras?

Yes, I am watching it online.

If I grant you the phone hung up while TM was at the checkout - why can't it be the 6:30 call ? That the time is off by 7 minutes on the camera?

17:09 - 18:30	North Dade Incoming 81
18:23:57 -- Call disconnected while Trayvon is at checkout
18:30 - 18:43	North Dade Incoming 13
18:41 - 18:45	Incoming 4
18:45 - 18:50	North Dade Incoming 5
18:46 - 18:48	North Dade Incoming 2
18:49 - 18:53	Incoming 4
18:53 - 18:54	North Dade Incoming 1
18:54 - 18:55	North Dade Incoming 1

How many times did the phone disconnect? You seem to want to imply that because Dee Dee is saying that the phone disconnected at the mailboxes it couldn't have disconnected at the store.

I am saying she specifically did not describe it as hanging up when leaving the store. Again, if it did hangup when he was leaving the store, why couldn't that be the 6:30 call ?

Bernie might be revealing more about what he knows about the timing. I agree, it's no way to conduct an interview when trying to collect independent observations.

I will. I'll use Bernie's statements instead. At the time of this interview, he already had the store video and had lined up the times of the call interruptions.

BTW: In the T-Mobile call logs, times of voice calls are converted to the subscribers local timezone but times for data and text are left as Pacific time.

 

[Dan O.]

You are making a claim and your claim is dependent on the stores CCTV clock being accurate. There is no reason for this clock to be accurate. Nobody is looking at this time unless the video is needed as evidence and then they have to verify the time against a standard anyhow.

What If interesting, is that none of this matters. I've seen the footage of Trayvon Martin at the 7-11, and there's nothing incriminating about it. He
he was just standing around, in warm clothes, in winter. It's sometimes amusing how far some white people in the US will be enraged by black people just walking down the street - but in other cases, it's very noticeable. And it's very noticeable in this case.

That's very true that the average speed at which Trayvon was walking home that night doesn't matter. George certainly had no idea of what time Trayvon had left the store and in fact didn't even know that he had been to a store. For me though, it's an academic exercise to see what truths can be extracted from the information that is available.

Eventually, the prosecution will reveal their hand which should include the chain of custody evidence for the store video and therefore the correlation for the CCTV clock. They should also have the cell tower data related to Trayvon's phone so we'll see accurate times of each connection and disconnection. We could just sit on our hands and wait for them to tell us. But I prefer to look for the suplimental evidence first so I'll have an independent means of evaluating the prosecutions numbers.


In my previous post I suggested that TheL8Elvis could inquire at a local 7-11 to find out how they manage the time synchronization on their CCTV system. Turns out that this won't be as informative as I had though. Beginning in about April last year, all the 7-11 stores upgraded to an integrated store computer system that combined the point of sales terminals with the security camera systems. The clocks are now managed by the network and the local managers can't touch them.

 

[Dan O.]

So then we should assume SPD knows how for off, if any, the 7-11 camera time is, or do you assume they didn't do that ?

We presume that they record the time on the camera in relation to a standard time because that is what the FBI best practices says they should do. If they aren't following these written best practices then they have serious problems.

Because I don't care that much ? In case you missed it:

You care enough to argue your beliefs on the internet but don't care enough to challenge your own beliefs. Very few people would deliberately seek information that could prove themselves wrong. I do it all the time. That's how I learn.

Yes, I am watching it online.

If I grant you the phone hung up while TM was at the checkout - why can't it be the 6:30 call ? That the time is off by 7 minutes on the camera?

If it were the 18:30 termination that we see there on the video, look at that call log and notice what else should be seen on the video.

17:09 - 18:30	North Dade Incoming 81
18:23:57 -- Call disconnected while Trayvon is at checkout
18:30 - 18:43	North Dade Incoming 13
18:41 - 18:45	Incoming 4
18:45 - 18:50	North Dade Incoming 5
18:46 - 18:48	North Dade Incoming 2
18:49 - 18:53	Incoming 4
18:53 - 18:54	North Dade Incoming 1
18:54 - 18:55	North Dade Incoming 1

There is also a question of the meaning of these overlapping series' of calls. If they are all Dee Dee's calls going to Trayvon's phone then T-Mobile may be over billing. The call series labeled only as "Incomming" terminates with the time of Trayvon's death so we can associate that series with Dee Dee. The North Dade series may be going to Trayvon's dad's phone. If Trayvon was juggling two separate callers that night I think we would have heard about it by now.