LDS

[Slowvehicle]

President Wilford Woodruff writes in his 1859 Journal: "all that God has said with regard to the ten tribes of Israel, strange as it may appear, will come to pass. They will, as has been said concerning them, smite the rock, and the mountains of ice will flow before them, and a great highway will be cast up, and their enemies will become a prey to them; and their records, and their choice treasures they will bring with them to Zion. These things are as true as God lives." He also cites the following statements from Brigham Young in regard to the "lost tribes" : "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth... the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."
See Doctrine and Covenants 133:23-31
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng

...and your opinion about when"Eve" and "Adam" lived?

...and your opinion about when the "Noachian Flood" happened?

...and your source for your "International Internet Laws"?

 

[dafydd]

President Wilford Woodruff writes in his 1859 Journal: "all that God has said with regard to the ten tribes of Israel, strange as it may appear, will come to pass. They will, as has been said concerning them, smite the rock, and the mountains of ice will flow before them, and a great highway will be cast up, and their enemies will become a prey to them; and their records, and their choice treasures they will bring with them to Zion. These things are as true as God lives." He also cites the following statements from Brigham Young in regard to the "lost tribes" : "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth... the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."
See Doctrine and Covenants 133:23-31
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng

What have you got against Mormons? Why are you casting them in such a bad light?

 

[bruto]

To be fair, it's not entirely impossible to have bits of the Earth broken off and flung into space. That's how the piece of Mars got to Antarctica, after all. They just generally are really teeny Earth bits, the larger ones are pulled back harder.

Gravity might work differently, of course if The earth is hollow, of course!

 

[tsig]

You generally get back what you've been dishing out.

Birds of a feather flock together.

A stitch in time saves nine but you never want to put new wine in old wineskins because as the twig is bent so grows the tree that will fall in the forest silently to human ears.

Proverb profiles was always my favorite part of the Gathering.

 

[Myriad]

To be fair, it's not entirely impossible to have bits of the Earth broken off and flung into space. That's how the piece of Mars got to Antarctica, after all. They just generally are really teeny Earth bits, the larger ones are pulled back harder.

That's what I thought at first, when I looked into the matter. I was thinking of those Mars meteorites too. It's still possible, but difficult to show that it would have actually happened for routine asteroid impacts. Earth is larger and has stronger gravity, and a thicker atmosphere, than Mars. The bottom line is, it would take an enormous impact, as I said. It's not the size of the bit, it's how fast it gets moving.

The most notable example is the moon itself, according to the current leading hypothesis of how the moon formed. But that was billions of years ago; there's no evidence that any multicellular life existed on earth at the time, but if it did, it would not have survived.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[tsig]

President Wilford Woodruff writes in his 1859 Journal: "all that God has said with regard to the ten tribes of Israel, strange as it may appear, will come to pass. They will, as has been said concerning them, smite the rock, and the mountains of ice will flow before them, and a great highway will be cast up, and their enemies will become a prey to them; and their records, and their choice treasures they will bring with them to Zion. These things are as true as God lives." He also cites the following statements from Brigham Young in regard to the "lost tribes" : "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth... the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."
See Doctrine and Covenants 133:23-31
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng

When you quote from a presidents Journal it's a matter of faith but when someone else quotes a passage from a Journal that you don't like then that's just his opinion.


Unless, of course, that entry has been approved by the Twelve and voted on by the people.*

*and whatever other ritual hoops god has to go thru to get his commands approved.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Janadele, do you believe that dark skin is a curse from God?

2 Nephi 5:21-24

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.

 

[Myriad]

President Wilford Woodruff writes in his 1859 Journal: "all that God has said with regard to the ten tribes of Israel, strange as it may appear, will come to pass. They will, as has been said concerning them, smite the rock, and the mountains of ice will flow before them, and a great highway will be cast up, and their enemies will become a prey to them; and their records, and their choice treasures they will bring with them to Zion. These things are as true as God lives." He also cites the following statements from Brigham Young in regard to the "lost tribes" : "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth... the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."
See Doctrine and Covenants 133:23-31
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng

What does and does not actually exist in Creation matters more than President Woodruff's and Brigham Young's words. Creation came from God; Woodruff's and Young's words came from Woodruff and Young. Which should we trust?

If there is no separated portion of the earth in the north, then ten tribes aren't living on it, and no great highway of ice will be cast up leading to it.

If I go back a few hundred years, I can find respected elders of my own church saying things like the sun revolves around the earth, witches fly on broomsticks, and great leviathans larger than whole islands live in the sea. They were guessing. By looking at Creation with care, we've learned that they were wrong. Their words do not dictate what Creation contains. God does. Which should we trust?

Notions of mysterious lost lands near the earth's poles were popular in the 19th century. Edgar Allan Poe wrote a novel about them; so did Sir Arthur Conan Doyle a few decades later. But then, people went to the polar regions and actually looked at them (and later, flew over them and sailed under the ice in submarines and mapped them from orbit) and learned what is and is not actually there.

God's Creation or men's words? Which should we trust?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Cat Tale]

Their words do not dictate what Creation contains. God does. Which should we trust?

This is an excellent point. I think one point that needs to be made, and actually Janadele herself made it in this post, which by the way, the quote belongs to Elder D. Todd Christofferson, "The Doctrine of Christ" Given at the April 2012 General Conference of the LDS Church

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.

Those things which she has posted from sources such as the Millennial Star, journals, off the cuff comments, etc. are not doctrinal. As she wrote in the same post

The President of the Church, not any one Apostle, determines official LDS theology. Newly formed official LDS doctrine is put forth by the President of the Church in an official statement countersigned either by his counselors or all members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, or both. No one man posits new doctrine alone.

Which by the way comes from this site by FAIR

When you go to the only doctrinal reference that she gives, that being D&C 133, all it says is that the earth will come together, and the tribes will be reunited. Where those tribes are currently one can only speculate, there is no LDS doctrine that they're on a portion of this earth seperated from this globe, or that they're living in the center of the earth, or any other such nonsense.

I would humbly request that if Janadele is going to require that we stay within the bounds of LDS doctrine and teaching that she follows her own rules.

Edited to add, God's creation trumps the words of men, obviously.

Second edit to add that if Janadele's link in the above stated post had worked I would have found http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine and she does indeed credit correctly. However, my credits are also correct.

 

[Mashuna]

President Wilford Woodruff writes in his 1859 Journal: "all that God has said with regard to the ten tribes of Israel, strange as it may appear, will come to pass. They will, as has been said concerning them, smite the rock, and the mountains of ice will flow before them, and a great highway will be cast up, and their enemies will become a prey to them; and their records, and their choice treasures they will bring with them to Zion. These things are as true as God lives." He also cites the following statements from Brigham Young in regard to the "lost tribes" : "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth... the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."
See Doctrine and Covenants 133:23-31
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng

It's good of you to post more errors in LDS scriptures, but I think we've got enough now.

 

[RandFan]

President Wilford Woodruff writes in his 1859 Journal:

Perfect example of religious programming. The inability to think for oneself.

 

[RandFan]

This is an excellent point. I think one point that needs to be made, and actually Janadele herself made it in this post, which by the way, the quote belongs to Elder D. Todd Christofferson, "The Doctrine of Christ" Given at the April 2012 General Conference of the LDS Church

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.

My first problem with this is the ad hoc rationalization of this. Particularly in the light of Brigham Young. I know that BY isn't the subject of your post but I want to make clear that this kind of reasoning can be quite self serving.

Granting for a moment the premise of a divine being who speaks to mortals, I could accept the rational for "off the cuff" comments. What Brigham Young taught were not "off the cuff". He said they were scripture. I dare say that had you lived then and had you told him to his face that Adam God and Blood Doctrine were not scripture you would have been excommunicated.

I bring this up because for an outsider it's readily apparent that the Church is adept at white washing its history and the "off the cuff" argument is used far too broadly to justify teachings that the church no longer holds, i.e. Adam God and Blood Doctrine.

 

[Agatha]

Is it too much to ask that you engage in a dialogue here, Janadele, instead of posting copied words of others? Do you have any opinions of your own?

You are painting your church and its adherents in a very bad light by your refusal to answer questions and discuss your beliefs.

 

[Craig4]

Because of this thread I've been reading about the life and times of Smith. Does anyone have an opinion about the credibility of the sources who claim to have seen him visiting a house of ill repute and sending someone to perform an abortion on one of the prostitutes?

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon628.htm

http://forum1.aimoo.com/theviewfrom...Smith-Prostitution-and-Abortion-1-248915.html

I've seen a few sources like this but they seem to mostly be from other Christians and there's some "your fairy story isn't as valid as my fairy story" going on. I certainly don't put it past Smith to visit prostitutes and arrange for abortions if any got pregnant but I'm hung up on the single source for most of it.

 

[Cat Tale]

Granting for a moment the premise of a divine being who speaks to mortals, I could accept the rational for "off the cuff" comments. What Brigham Young taught were not "off the cuff". He said they were scripture.

Originally Posted by Brigham Young by way of RandFan
"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).

Brigham Young's comment was not authorized by the church, to the best of my knowledge. It is true that only the prophet can receive revelation, but according to D&C 28:13 to actually be approved requires the "common consent in the church." That isn't to say that Brigham Young didn't think that, or try to enforce it, just that unless it went through and was approved by the church then it is not so. FWIW, his discourses are not taught as official doctrine today, thus my own conclusion would be that they were not approved at the time.

I will concede that whatever Brigham Young said from the pulpit was probably considered as much gospel doctrine to those who heard him, as to what most members think of Thomas S. Monson's talks today.

 

[Pup]

I've seen a few sources like this but they seem to mostly be from other Christians and there's some "your fairy story isn't as valid as my fairy story" going on. I certainly don't put it past Smith to visit prostitutes and arrange for abortions if any got pregnant but I'm hung up on the single source for most of it.

My reaction was the same as that. Don't know enough about Nauvoo or the people involved to comment, other than this one little bit of trivia, since 19th century medicine is something I do know a little about.

From the link:

While giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said: 'Oh, a little job for Joseph; one of his women is in trouble.' Saying this, he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end.

What she's describing would be either a hook or crochet. Some doctors used a combination instrument but it would have a crook at both ends. It would most likely have an ebony handle, or possibly an ivory handle if it were an older one, and the shaft would be of unplated steel. You can see some pictures of antique examples here (search down the page for "hook" or "crochet"):

http://www.fcgapultoscollection.com/midcorn.html

The instruments were used for breech births and other times when labor wasn't proceeding and the fetus needed turned or assisted, as well as for labor in which the fetus had either already died and needed extracted, or where the fetus needed killed to save the life of the mother, so they weren't just for inducing elective abortions. Someone in the period might have been aware of such an instrument, even if they didn't know a doctor who habitually induced elective abortions.

So that doesn't indicate whether the story is true. It's just an interesting bit of trivia that the description of the instrument is an immediately recognizable one, even though the period writer didn't name it.

 

[RandFan]

Brigham Young's comment was not authorized by the church, to the best of my knowledge.

Cat, Brigham Young WAS the church. There was no higher authority on Earth at the time than Young. If we parse your claim it would be thusly, the Church then authorized the comment but the current church does not authorize the comment.

It is true that only the prophet can receive revelation, but according to D&C 28:13 to actually be approved requires the "common consent in the church." That isn't to say that Brigham Young didn't think that, or try to enforce it, just that unless it went through and was approved by the church then it is not so.

Cat, the scripture does not mean what you think it is. It does not mean that doctrines are voted on either by members or the Quorum of the 12 or anyone else. There is no means to overturn the current prophets teachings. One must first wait until the prophet is dead and then the new leadership can then refute or distance themselves from the previous teachings.

FWIW, his discourses are not taught as official doctrine today, thus my own conclusion would be that they were not approved at the time.

Approved by whom? You keep reffering to the Church, do you mean the members? The Quorum of the 12? What are you talking about?

I will concede that whatever Brigham Young said from the pulpit was probably considered as much gospel doctrine to those who heard him, as to what most members think of Thomas S. Monson's talks today.

Bingo. I think what you are trying to say that a prophets teachings must pass the test of time. Future prophets may very well disavow Monson. So, your "prophet" is unreliable. Instead of relying on the word of god you need time for unnamed others in the Mormon Church to decide whether or not the teachings are indeed god's message.

 

[abaddon]

Bingo. I think what you are trying to say that a prophets teachings must pass the test of time. Future prophets may very well disavow Monson. So, your "prophet" is unreliable. Instead of relying on the word of god you need time for unnamed others in the Mormon Church to decide whether or not the teachings are indeed god's message.

An interesting point. Since anything said by the current prophet may, in the future, be rejected by future prophets, what does a morman do about the current prophets statements about anything?

 

[abaddon]

And as I posted that I recognised the inevitible rationalisation that "It was correct for that time"

 

[Janadele]

The resurrected Lord visited and ministered among the "lost tribes" following His ministry among the Nephites:
3 Nephi 17:4 "But now I go unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for He knoweth whither He hath taken them."