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...well, that was fun.

unsurprisingly, a tissue of special pleadings and red herrings, unsupported by a single external citation or source.

There is this gem: "No quantity of archaeological evidence will ever suffice to prove beyond reasonable doubt that either the Bible or The Book of Mormon is true — or false."
...which of course, sidesteps the issue.

It is also interesting to see lack of physical evidence turned into an indication of truth: "All of the children of Israel who followed Moses out of Egypt are still missing and unaccounted for archaeologically, but their descendants are our friends and neighbors."
Instead of the fact that there is no reliable archaeological evidence of the 150-mile long column of ex-slaves, stripping Egypt and crippling its economy, wandering in the wilderness for 40 years without leaving a trace being an indication that there might be...problems with the legend of the flight from Egypt, the lack of such evidence becomes support for the accuracy of tBoM.

The presentation continues in that vein--"Before we review some of the recovered items, please remember that if the book were a hoax there should not be any evidence to support it, not even one bottle cap, hair pin, or cigarette butt. Because of the logic of evidence in this instance, one positive correspondence counts for dozens of missing ones. For example, one documented steel sword trumps several herds of missing horses and elephants."
...but no reliable documentation of steel technology, much less legitimate steel artifacts, is ever provided.

This claim is made: "Recently, the question has become how long did horses survive before becoming extinct. Recent radiocarbon dating of horse bones indicates that some survived much longer than standard science would have us believe, with some horses being dated just before and just after Nephite times, but before Spanish colonization. So this issue is open and moving in a direction favorable to Book of Mormon claims."
...but no reliable source for the information is given.

The presentation should have been returned without grading for a thorough edit that included identification of independent sources for each of the claims made.
 
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I found these links to Youtube videos of Clark's presentation. Clark is not the most dynamic of presenters, and the slides are grainy and therefore difficult to make out, but they are still better than just the raw text posted at the FAIR site.


Note, by the way, that Clark claims barley evidence (without citation) in his presentation.


ETA: The videos don't appear to be a complete reproduction of the conference presentation.
 
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Did you miss my post in which I invited _____ (I forget who) to start a thread about, in your words, "mountains of scientific evidence" that disprove the Book of Mormon? Bring it on--the barley, the "utter" lack of archaeological evidence, the items that could not have existed in the Americas in the pre-Columbian era, the "work of the 19th century," etc.

As for me being guilty of "simple intellectual cowardice," are you unaware of forum rules that forbid personal (ad hominem) attacks? I should think that tactic--one of last resort in debate--would be beneath you.

We have asked about all those things. You just choose not to answer in a substantive way. How about it? Explain the barley.
 
But this is your personal preference. What about women who disagree with you? Again, this is an example of ad hoc reasoning.
Gee, I don't think so. All Cat Tale did was express a preference. She didn't try to justify her opinion with evidence. But that's ok. Hell, I have a bazillion preferences for which I have absolutely zero evidence.
 
Perhaps you do not understand the role the supernatural played in American life in the 19th century. Seer stones, "glass looking," divining rods, treasure hunting--all were commonly acceptable activities. If you haven't read Dr. D. Michael Quinn's book Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, I encourage you to do so. Quinn puts into perspective the so-called "criminal" activities of Smith and hundreds/thousands of his contemporaries.



Nothing surprising about that (see above); he was simply being honest. Are you unaware that some early Church leaders believed in phrenology?

I fail to comprehend the disconnect in this.

On the one hand, you agree that phrenology, divining, etc are nineteenth century myths.

OTOH, you believe in seer stones and putting your face in a hat are legitimate.
 
But this is your personal preference. What about women who disagree with you?
The first time Mormons knocked at my door I invited them in and listened politely whilst they went through their spiel. They had a binder of photographs and proudly showed me one of the current prophet and apostles, all of whom were men. I asked why, they tried to justify it, I showed them the door.
 
We've moved beyond supernatural. Every time a supernatural explanation was given for a phenomenon and we found the truth, it always turned out to be not supernatural.

Science is batting 1000
Supernatural is batting 0

Your claim is silly. Con artists rely on this kind of sloppy thinking to fleece the sheep.

Yes and yes again.
I mention the 'translation' used in the Book of Abraham so often in this thread because twenty years ago I was involved in shutting down the operations of a New Age scammer who pulled a very similar trick with Chinese source material for Tai Chi practises.
To my surprise, even after the 'translater' was completely discredited, there were still people who believed the scammer had special gifts.

I see a similar thing happening here with the Book of Abraham and it surprises me that anyone in this day and age could possibly take such an obvious con seriously.

There's a lot of on-line information that shows just how cheap Joseph Smith's scam was.

First stop is wiki, because it's the most respectful and balanced site I could find.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

The other sources can be challenged as anti-Mormon, of course.
I include them on the chance they can be useful.

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_TOC.html
in particular
http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_8.html

http://carm.org/book-abraham-papyri-and-joseph-smith
http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm
 
Yes and yes again.
I mention the 'translation' used in the Book of Abraham so often in this thread because twenty years ago I was involved in shutting down the operations of a New Age scammer who pulled a very similar trick with Chinese source material for Tai Chi practises.
To my surprise, even after the 'translater' was completely discredited, there were still people who believed the scammer had special gifts.

I see a similar thing happening here with the Book of Abraham and it surprises me that anyone in this day and age could possibly take such an obvious con seriously.

There's a lot of on-line information that shows just how cheap Joseph Smith's scam was.

The BoA scam is particularly odd for another reason. JS had an easy out. All he had to say was that he couldn't translate it, since he no longer had the Urim and Thummim (the seer stones he used to "translate" the BoM) since they had been taken back by god, along with the golden plates. Why did he even try to come up with an answer? He already had oodles of followers that would have believed pretty much anything he said, so saying "I have prayed, and god says that it is not yet time to know the mysteries of these ancient writings" would have sufficed nicely. The saints would have believed every word including that he'd just got another divine revelation, so why the extended con? Had he truly convinced himself at that point that he really was a prophet? Was it an attempt to get more followers? I just don't see the point in his (really stupid) actions on this one.
 
The BoA scam is particularly odd for another reason. JS had an easy out. All he had to say was that he couldn't translate it, since he no longer had the Urim and Thummim (the seer stones he used to "translate" the BoM) since they had been taken back by god, along with the golden plates. Why did he even try to come up with an answer? He already had oodles of followers that would have believed pretty much anything he said, so saying "I have prayed, and god says that it is not yet time to know the mysteries of these ancient writings" would have sufficed nicely. The saints would have believed every word including that he'd just got another divine revelation, so why the extended con? Had he truly convinced himself at that point that he really was a prophet? Was it an attempt to get more followers? I just don't see the point in his (really stupid) actions on this one.

Well, when you have a bunch of people who hang on your every word and have given up all independent thought in favor of your rantings, there's a lot of pressure. You can't just say, "I can't read that" when you're a god's chosen prophet. That could lead to doubt and doubt is bad for con men pretending to be prophets. Besides what are the odds that the sheep you're fleecing will be able to read the damn thing?
 
It's hard to quit, or even slow down, while you're ahead. Human nature. This applies even moreso to scammers.
 
All good points.
Also keep in mind that back in the day, Egyptian hieroglyphs were literally a closed book, so that fact would have added to the sense of safety in pulling off this obvious scam.
 
It's possible that you're not current on the status of scholarship re. the Book of Mormon (some of the assertions you make are fossilized).

Would you be so kind as to provide citations to peer-reviewed sources that support the claim that horses were raised and ridden, or that domestic cattle were husbanded, or that domestic pigs were kept, in the pre-Colombian Americas?

Speaking of that, Cat Tale posted something way earlier in the thread, and she had the webpage up again last evening, and I noticed something odd.

http://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-5-1-nephi-16-18?lang=eng

Scroll down all the way through the long page almost to the bottom, to the section headed "1 Nephi 18:25 horses." This is (as shown at the top of the page) from the 2009 Book of Mormon Student Manual.

(Hopefully the following won't be too much quoted material, since it's a brief paragraph from a huge article, and most of it is actually from a public-doman source anyway.)

There was controversy regarding horses in the Western Hemisphere before Columbus arrived. However, modern archaeological discoveries have shed new light on the subject: “‘Fossil remains of true horses, differing but very slightly from the smaller and inferior breeds of those now existing, are found abundantly in deposits of the most recent geological age [a confusing phrase, but from context I think they mean recent in geological terms, i.e. 10,000 years +/-], in almost every part of America, from Escholz Bay in the north to Patagonia in the South. In that continent however, they became quite extinct, and no horses, either wild or domesticated, existed there at the time of the Spanish conquest, which is the most remarkable as, when introduced from Europe the horses that ran wild proved by their rapid multiplication in the plains of South America and Texas that the climate, food, and other circumstances were highly favorable for their existence. The former great abundance of Equidae in America, their complete extinction, and their perfect acclimatization when reintroduced by man, form curious but as yet unsolved problems in geographical distribution.’ (New Americanized Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 3197.)” (Joy M. Osborn, The Book of Mormon—The Stick of Joseph, 2nd ed. [2001], 164).

I said to Cat Tale, that encyclopedia quote isn't modern. It sounds like it's from around 1910.

Well, I was wrong. It's from 1890. Sheesh. Twenty years off. I'm slipping.

That seems odd, for several reasons. One, who uses an encyclopedia over 100 years old for a current overview of an archaelogical topic?

Two, it starts out hinting that new research supports the LDS view, but then undercuts it and says just the opposite, by saying ice-age-era horses went extinct, despite spreading rapidly when reintroduced by the Spanish, which in this context hints that if Israelite immigrants had given wild horses even minimal care, they surely would have survived just fine until the Spaniards arrived.

Three, while it's surprisingly still a good summary 100+ years later, the "modern archaeological discoveries" in the introductory sentence are apparently referring to either late 1840s research, when Equus complicatus was discovered in the Americas, or 1870s research, during the big competitive fossil-digging that produced the oversimplified little drawing of horses getting bigger, which one still sees occasionally today. For example, here's how the discoveries by Marsh (of the Marsh vs. Cope fossil wars) were being published in the 1870s: http://books.google.com/books?id=XeEyAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA398&output=html

There's really been no more modern research that has changed the very gross generalization in the 1890 encyclopedia quote: horses almost the size of modern ones existed in the Americas, became extinct thousands of years before the Book of Mormon era, then were reintroduced by the Spaniards. Even the latest research in the Yukon still puts horses barely hanging on 7500 years ago, while the Book of Mormon has them in use 5000 years more recently, 2500 years ago.

So on the one hand, the 1890 encyclopedia summary is correct, but on the other hand, quoting an encyclopedia source that far out of date is just weird.

Cat Tale also pointed me to a statement by former president of the church Gordon B. Hinkley, that seems to have first been published in the 1980s but is still quoted more recently:
The evidence for [the Book of Mormon's] truth, for its validity in a world that is prone to demand evidence, lies not in archaeology or anthropology, though these may be helpful to some... The test of its truth lies in reading it. It is a book of God. Reasonable people may sincerely question its origin; but those who have read it prayerfully have come to know by a power beyond their natural senses that it is true, that it contains the word of God, ..."

Okay, personally, the logic there makes me gag, but if one gets beyond that and tries to put on one's NOMA goggles, I think it's evidence that the church gets it and is preparing to give ground on the archaeological front, because they realize it's a losing proposition, like the Catholic church and heliocentrism.
 
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If the 1826 trial was so damning to Joseph Smith's reputation, why wasn't it brought up in the second trial held in 1830?

Because people didn't care then, they had Smith on other charges. They cared 40 some years later when his youthful activities had fallen out of favor. And polygamy had become the big issue thrusting the church back into the political light. Are you telling me his testimony as recorded would not have been damaging to not only Smith's reputation, but also the Church in general? It still is today.

Of course we seem to be relying on Purple's account, and ignoring all the other accounts. To me, I don't know if any of the accounts are factual. Though I tend to give the most weight to either Purple or Pearsall. If we go with the Pearsall record though, then Smith was actually convicted. Here's the entire artlcle as printed in Fraser's Magazine for February 1873

As far as his being brought up on vagrancy charges, it's not as simple as to just say that he was a bum, here's the NY law in 1813, from the FAIR site that you've quoted several times.

The portion of the statute that would seem to apply was enacted by New York in 1813.
…all persons who not having wherewith to maintain themselves, live idle without employment, and also all persons who go about from door to door, or place themselves in the streets, highways or passages, to beg in the cities or towns where they respectively dwell, and all jugglers, and all persons pretending to have skill in physiognomy, palmistry, or like crafty science, or pretending to tell fortunes, or to discover where lost goods may be found; … shall be deemed and adjudged disorderly persons.22

[Skyrider again]Perhaps you do not understand the role the supernatural played in American life in the 19th century. Seer stones, "glass looking," divining rods, treasure hunting--all were commonly acceptable activities. If you haven't read Dr. D. Michael Quinn's book Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, I encourage you to do so. Quinn puts into perspective the so-called "criminal" activities of Smith and hundreds/thousands of his contemporaries.

Perhaps you haven't been reading my posts. That's what I've been saying all along, and why I don't understand why it would be so horrible for him to have been convicted. Anyway, gotta get to church!
 
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Why the indirect reference? Why not go directly to Clark? It is was a presentation at the 2005 FAIR conference. The text is available here.

There are two things that bother me about the link. First, none of the presentation materials are included. Second, the text has no citations for sources.

That's disappointing. I guess we were just supposed to accept it all on faith.

That's exactly what the report says:

No quantity of archaeological evidence will ever suffice to prove beyond reasonable doubt that either the Bible or The Book of Mormon is true — or false. Evidence is interesting and has it uses, but only as a means of better understanding the book, not of proving it to atheists and wayward saints. Sixth, we believe The Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient text written by New World prophets. Seventh, and finally, we harbor no doubts that Joseph Smith translated the book by the power of God.


Evidence? We don't need no stinkin' evidence.
 
That's one of those things that would require a lot of faith. Maybe it's just the baggage that I brought with me from the Methodist church, but I don't want the responsibility. I have enough responsibilities that I don't get done in a day. :eek:


Do you think this applies to all Mormon women?

Couldn't god change it thru his prophet and make the priesthood available to women?
 
How is that good for Smith? If I gave money to someone to find treasure I would want to them to keep looking until they found it. Otherwise I would figure I was being taken. That little nuggest does not help your case.

Stowell didn't feel he was "being taken." He defended Joseph at trial, much to the prosecution's dismay.

: That surgeon has years of education, residency, and must be certified to perform the operation. What did Smith have that the average con-artist does not have? What talents and abilities justified Smith's fee?

His fee was justified by a month of back-breaking labor.

: If someone asked me to look for treasure I would tell them I had no proven abilities to find treasure. Smith?

You aren't Smith, and you don't know what Smith said to Stowell. He may well have said, "Well, we can give it a try, but I can't promise you success." Moreover, you're speaking from a 21st century perspective. As I have noted, the kinds of activities in which Smith engaged were commonplace in the 19th century, and were widely accepted.

: But that is the inference from your argument. You are the one who introduced deluded dowsers (and most are deluded though some are dishonest).

You clamed humankind are moving away from the supernatural, and I agreed. I noted, however, that there are exceptions, which means you should have qualified your statement. Apparently, you were unaware that dousing rods are used today in multiple countries.

: Again, that doesn't help your case. That some people are deluded and believe in dousing, or that some people are dishonest and use dowsing, doesn't justify what Smith did. You are trying to provide context but it's hurting your case.

You don't know the circumstances under which Smith operated; you're speculating, which doesn't help your case. You judge Smith based on a paucity of facts, some of which I suspect were derived from anti-LDS sources.
 
...well, that was fun.

unsurprisingly, a tissue of special pleadings and red herrings, unsupported by a single external citation or source.

There is this gem: "No quantity of archaeological evidence will ever suffice to prove beyond reasonable doubt that either the Bible or The Book of Mormon is true — or false."
...which of course, sidesteps the issue.

It is also interesting to see lack of physical evidence turned into an indication of truth: "All of the children of Israel who followed Moses out of Egypt are still missing and unaccounted for archaeologically, but their descendants are our friends and neighbors."
Instead of the fact that there is no reliable archaeological evidence of the 150-mile long column of ex-slaves, stripping Egypt and crippling its economy, wandering in the wilderness for 40 years without leaving a trace being an indication that there might be...problems with the legend of the flight from Egypt, the lack of such evidence becomes support for the accuracy of tBoM.

The presentation continues in that vein--"Before we review some of the recovered items, please remember that if the book were a hoax there should not be any evidence to support it, not even one bottle cap, hair pin, or cigarette butt. Because of the logic of evidence in this instance, one positive correspondence counts for dozens of missing ones. For example, one documented steel sword trumps several herds of missing horses and elephants."
...but no reliable documentation of steel technology, much less legitimate steel artifacts, is ever provided.

This claim is made: "Recently, the question has become how long did horses survive before becoming extinct. Recent radiocarbon dating of horse bones indicates that some survived much longer than standard science would have us believe, with some horses being dated just before and just after Nephite times, but before Spanish colonization. So this issue is open and moving in a direction favorable to Book of Mormon claims."
...but no reliable source for the information is given.

The presentation should have been returned without grading for a thorough edit that included identification of independent sources for each of the claims made.

By this standard Harry Potter is a real wizard.
 
Stowell didn't feel he was "being taken." He defended Joseph at trial, much to the prosecution's dismay.



His fee was justified by a month of back-breaking labor.



You aren't Smith, and you don't know what Smith said to Stowell. He may well have said, "Well, we can give it a try, but I can't promise you success." Moreover, you're speaking from a 21st century perspective. As I have noted, the kinds of activities in which Smith engaged were commonplace in the 19th century, and were widely accepted.



You clamed humankind are moving away from the supernatural, and I agreed. I noted, however, that there are exceptions, which means you should have qualified your statement. Apparently, you were unaware that dousing rods are used today in multiple countries.



You don't know the circumstances under which Smith operated; you're speculating, which doesn't help your case. You judge Smith based on a paucity of facts, some of which I suspect were derived from anti-LDS sources.

You seem to be quite conversant in what Smith said. How do you do this?



pau·ci·ty
[paw-si-tee] Show IPA
noun
1.
smallness of quantity; scarcity; scantiness: a country with a paucity of resources.
2.
smallness or insufficiency of number; fewness.


How do you derive an insufficient number of facts?

1+1=2 regardless of who says it.
 
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