2 questions re 1120 'Missing bodies' from WTC 1&2 & media complicity in mass murder

[ElMondoHummus]

OMG

Why are DNA techniques inadequate to identify human remains? Partially because it's impossible to unburn remains, partially because it's impossible to solve an incomplete puzzle, and partially because medical forensic science is simply not omniscient or perfect.

Let's recall that part of the reason the remains are stored is BECAUSE the examiners involved understand that techniques are subject to futher development, and might open hope to identifying remains later.

BTW, there's no really worthy comparison to Zarqawi here.

Col. Steve Jones, command surgeon for Multinational Forces, said an autopsy concluded that al-Zarqawi died from serious injuries to his lungs in Wednesday’s airstrike. An FBI test positively identified al-Zarqawi’s remains.

Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, a spokesman for the U.S. military in Baghdad, said U.S. forces arrived about 28 minutes after a fighter jet bombed al-Zarqawi’s hideout outside Baqouba. Medics secured al-Zarqawi’s airway but his breathing was shallow and labored, and he expelled blood from his mouth.

“It was very evident he had extremely massive internal injuries,” Caldwell said.

Al-Zarqawi died 24 minutes after coalition forces arrived, he said.

Jones said the autopsy conducted Saturday showed that al-Zarqawi died from injuries to his lungs.

“Blast waves from the two bombs caused tearing, bruising of the lungs and bleeding,” he said. “There was no evidence of firearm injuries."

The al-Qaida in Iraq leader also suffered head and facial wounds, bleeding in his ears and a fracture of his lower right leg.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1327512...arqawi-autopsy-details-released/#.UON3y28X98E (June 2006)

Zarqawi basically suffered severe barotraumatic injuries that resulted in his death. Furthermore, he was recovered with a half hour of the bombing, apparently. Contrast that to the WTC victims: (Warning: The following cannot be stated delicately, so while I'll do my best to be sensitive, I'm not even going to try to be anything less than blunt. Clarity and accuracy is important here):

Their remains were unfortunately dismembered, in many cases only very partial remains were recovered, such as an individual body part or organ. Then they suffered the massive forces resulting from the buildings collapsing. And beyond all that, they were exposed to either fires or corrosive chemical environments for days to weeks, environments known to be severely corrosive due to EPA studies as well as the well known studies on steel erosion from sulfur based reactions.

So, bottom line: Apples to oranges.

Useful reference:
"Who they were : inside the World Trade Center DNA story : the unprecedented effort to identify the missing"

So it's possible to answer these questions without resort to induction or opinion, but by simply looking up relevant data and doing some critical thinking. That would be a useful skill for truthers to employ.

 

[ozeco41]

... That would be a useful skill for truthers to employ.

Yes but few of them do - and probably most of them are not capable of doing so - I have postulated that limited reasoning skills predisposes people to become truthers. (Note the reversal of the usual presumptions of causality. It is not "they are truthers so they cannot think" BUT RATHER "They cannot think so they tend to become truthers.").

Then how many genuine truthers do we see on these pages these days? most are clearly trolling with no wish to learn. And thinking is usually counter productive for trolls whose objective is to get responses without regard to logic, truthfulness or consistency.

 

[beachnut]

... (1) Why has no one one bothered to ask or explained why, current DNA techniques are inadequate to identify these thousands of human remains that are on ice "for future analysis" ?

...

Why can't you? Why ask a question which proves you have no point? How many more years will you persist in apologizing for 19 nuts, 19 terrorists who did 911.

BTW, cremation destroys DNA. Just a note for you.

... (2) What damaged these remains so badly, that the same techniques used to identify al-Zarqawi after we dropped a 500lb bomb on his head are inadequate here? ...

Oh wowzer, a 500 pound bomb. Wow!
The WTC collapse was equal in energy to over 260 500 pound bombs, in each tower. Energy the office fires? The office fires more than 2,500 tons of thermite in energy.

Do you understand why some humans were totally gone? You make an issue of a 500 pound bomb, but failed to do the E=mgh, and heat energy work.

The jet fuel fires had the energy of 130 tons of TNT, and you bring up a weak 500 pound bomb, and the collapse of single tower packed the energy of 260 BOMBS, and then the fires beat that by an order of magnitude.

Do you do order of magnitude? Are you an engineer? You spread nonsense, and don't understand reality. Good luck, we are in the rotten years of lies from 911 truth, as you have to recycle your ignorance of physics and repeat the lies of the past.

... I have asked this of a few 'journalists' and they either ignore the question, or stay quiet. Not all of course, some know the truth perfectly well, but argue that, they dont get to pick their stories, the copy desks do, and they need their jobs. ...

Journalist do research and understand what real experts say, and who the real experts are. You get your crazy claims from nuts.

You are paranoid and have no clue how to apply physics and knowledge to make rational conclusions. Not news as you remain a poster of nonsense on 911. Keep up the good work, the earth is a village.

...I would rather change jobs, personally, than cover up for mass murder and treason. Journalists have betrayed their critical position as the watchdogs of the people against governmental abuse. Now they've become cheerleaders literally.. mouthpieces for elite interests. War, is always high on the list of elite interests. Just look at the US national debt in the last decade.

The media is owned by a handful of corporations who will do what is good for their bottom line first, always. So we have only the illusion of a free press any more. The Iraq war proved that conclusively.

How much will Americans stand for? It seems limitless ...

This is nonsense. Good luck changing jobs.

Please take a physics course; join reality.

 

[dafydd]

Reading the OP I had a gut feeling that he was right, but it was just gas prior to a wet, stinky fart.

Truthers are never right.

 

[pakeha]

He either believes that, or that the massive amount of super-high explosive/completely silent bombs planted on every part of every floor blew the 1120 bodies into tiny fragments.. Even though nothing short of a nuclear weapon could possibly do this a human body (or, of course, a massive grinder of two falling 110 story skyscrapers and 100 day fires).

Actually IIRC he believes in mini-nukes..

Mini-nukes?
Really?
Mini-nukes?

 

[njslim]

25 years ago had a plane crash down street from me - Lear 35A with 4 people aboard

As member of local FD we did "body search" - only were not any bodies, Just scattered
pieces which we marked with little flags for the coroner to recover

We found: a hand sans fingers, 3 amputated fingers (not sure if belonged to hand) and
1/2 of torso . Rest was "human hamburger", scattered pieces of tissue

Average truther watching videos in mommy's basement has no clue about what really
happens in accidents and what the forces involved will do to human body

Seem to believe it what Hollywood shows.......

 

[Jbui]

OK, so if you detonate a dynamite vest, and you are blown into pieces, that proofs that explosives are not needed to blow a body to pieces?

Or if you go to pieces in a high speed plane crash dive from 10000m, then it proves that gravity in a building collapse can throw you 2 blocks away and turn you into small pieces?

In building collapses, people are found dead or alive, but usually in one piece. I have not found any building collapses where people were blown into pieces, but several cases where all people stayed intact. Please find one example where in a building collapse, people where blown into pieces / thrown 2 blocks away.

There is often a claim that there was enormous energy coming from the collapse. As if turning a skycraper into dust releases energy. Steel structure in a skyscraper can usually stand at least 3 times it's weight, and like in the case of Marriot hotel, WTC3sorry, can't paste an URL here due to forum restriction)
steel structure can actually stop free falling steel. So please explain, How can big part of Marriot Hotel and people inside survive tons of freefalling WTC steel, but people inside WTC2 do not get any protection from the steel structure on top of them, and instead that steel structure in WTC 1&2 is referred to a bomb that should blow people inside to small pieces and throw them two blocks away.

I know it's common here to call anyone who doesn't believe the government's story an idiot etc. I'm fine with that, but please try to also give answers to my questions.

 

[StankApe]

OK, so if you detonate a dynamite vest, and you are blown into pieces, that proofs that explosives are not needed to blow a body to pieces?

Or if you go to pieces in a high speed plane crash dive from 10000m, then it proves that gravity in a building collapse can throw you 2 blocks away and turn you into small pieces?

In building collapses, people are found dead or alive, but usually in one piece. I have not found any building collapses where people were blown into pieces, but several cases where all people stayed intact. Please find one example where in a building collapse, people where blown into pieces / thrown 2 blocks away.

There is often a claim that there was enormous energy coming from the collapse. As if turning a skycraper into dust releases energy. Steel structure in a skyscraper can usually stand at least 3 times it's weight, and like in the case of Marriot hotel, WTC3sorry, can't paste an URL here due to forum restriction)
steel structure can actually stop free falling steel. So please explain, How can big part of Marriot Hotel and people inside survive tons of freefalling WTC steel, but people inside WTC2 do not get any protection from the steel structure on top of them, and instead that steel structure in WTC 1&2 is referred to a bomb that should blow people inside to small pieces and throw them two blocks away.

I know it's common here to call anyone who doesn't believe the government's story an idiot etc. I'm fine with that, but please try to also give answers to my questions.

It's a matter of energy sir. Massive amounts of energy when those enormous buildings fell, they released this energy turning the entire structure into ,basically, a big cuisinart , grinding up everything inside. Notice they didn;t find any big oak desks either? Do you claim there were no giant solid oak desks in the WTC? Tougher than human body a desk is isn't it?

 

[Reactor drone]

In building collapses, people are found dead or alive, but usually in one piece. I have not found any building collapses where people were blown into pieces, but several cases where all people stayed intact. Please find one example where in a building collapse, people where blown into pieces / thrown 2 blocks away.

How tall were those buildings where people were found intact? Remember that E=mgh so the bigger the height the greater the energy. If you want to look for comparisons look for building collapses over 50 storeys where people inside weren't mashed.

 

[leftysergeant]

I once had a chance to look at pieces of two F-105s laid out in a hanger for an attempted reconstruction after they met at high speed. Aside from the engines, I did not see anything that you could not put in an average-sized gym bag.

There were bits of orange fabric on identifiable parts of the aircraft from one end to the other. How finely do you figure the body or bodies that had been wearing that fabric had to have been sliced and diced to manage that?

Now bury the pieces of a body so mangled in a pile of caustic lime and hot coals at a thousand degrees or so for about a month and tell me how much identifiable DNA is likely to be available.

Then there was the way that Rotten Ruddy got impatient with the progress toward restoring his city to working order and started pushing the idea of just scooping and dumping all that fine debris under the rubble, so that now little bits of bone are showing up in fill used to fix potholes.

See "Hanlon's Razor."

 

[Spanx]

Hi jbui,
Have a little browse through this link.....

WARNING THIS IS GRAPHIC

http://www.bestgore.com/murder/911-rarely-seen-unpublished-photos/

 

[Oystein]

Spanx, could you please add a clear warning before that link of the very graphic, gruesome content? Thanks

 

[leftysergeant]

There is often a claim that there was enormous energy coming from the collapse. As if turning a skycraper into dust releases energy. Steel structure in a skyscraper can usually stand at least 3 times it's weight, and like in the case of Marriot hotel, WTC3sorry, can't paste an URL here due to forum restriction)
steel structure can actually stop free falling steel.

Only if it is in the way of the falling steel, and secured to other structures by connections strong enough to bear the weight of the falling steel. This was not the case in the towers. The connections between the walls and floors in the towers were only able to hold about three times the weight of one floor, and had far more than that placed on top of them.

So please explain, How can big part of Marriot Hotel and people inside survive tons of freefalling WTC steel, but people inside WTC2 do not get any protection from the steel structure on top of them, and instead that steel structure in WTC 1&2 is referred to a bomb that should blow people inside to small pieces and throw them two blocks away.

The Marriot was of a typical lattice construction, with columns spread across the entire width of the structure and rather solid griders connecting them and supporting the weight of the floors. Each individual floor was, thus, far stronger than several floors of the towers.

The floors of the towers did not fail as rapidly as the weight of the floors above could pile up. Thus, all of that free-falling debris had to go somewhere. If the floors could not get out of the way fast enough, some of the debris had to spread outward. This is kind of grade-school science. Why are you quibbling about it?

 

[deeper]

I know it's common here to call anyone who doesn't believe the government's story an idiot etc. I'm fine with that, but please try to also give answers to my questions.

That's not true, it's that the arguments put forth which attempt to dis-prove the commonly held narrative are often idiotic. I'm fine with that but please try and acknowledge answers given to your questions.

 

[Shiner]

Please find one example where in a building collapse, people where blown into pieces / thrown 2 blocks away.

Or burned for 100 days?

You show me another 500 000 ton building collapse, with people inside, and you'll have you're example.
It was a pretty unique building collapse mate........

 

[leftysergeant]

You show me another 500 000 ton building collapse, with people inside, and you'll have you're example.

Inadequate. It requires an example of a Yorkie coming through an ore-crushing machine at a gold mine in a recognizeable form.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Given the height of the main towers, something from an upper floor landing two blocks away doesn't have to be a matter of being flung by explosives. Simple deflection, or anything else that adds a bit of a horizontal component to the travel can be the cause. We're talking 110 story skyscrapers here; anything even halfway up just needs a small bit of horizontal force added to get it to land far away from the base. It doesn't need to be done by explosives.

Truthers need to think about these things before stating them.

 

[Jbui]

It's a matter of energy sir. Massive amounts of energy when those enormous buildings fell, they released this energy turning the entire structure into ,basically, a big cuisinart , grinding up everything inside. Notice they didn;t find any big oak desks either? Do you claim there were no giant solid oak desks in the WTC? Tougher than human body a desk is isn't it?

Actually Solid oak desks should have also been there, crushed like gravity and tons of steel crushes them. Not pulverized all over Manhattan.

About the eneregy. The buildings fell with 0,7G acceleration, so 70% of the total energy went in just accelerating the fall of the mass. 30% was left to crush the parts below. But with safety factor of 3, you would need 300% of the potential energy to crush the building. That is why in CD's they blow up the lower 1/3 of the building to get that energy to crush a skyscraper.

But if you just use Gravity you can barely crumble concrete, not pulverize, you can crush objects like desks, not pulverize, you can move stuff down, not 100-200m sideways.

 

[Jbui]

How tall were those buildings where people were found intact? Remember that E=mgh so the bigger the height the greater the energy. If you want to look for comparisons look for building collapses over 50 storeys where people inside weren't mashed.

Sorry, I guess there are no skyscraper collapses with people inside, since there are no skyscraper collapes by gravity at all(I know what happened with Delft Uni, Windsor in Madrid, and Kader Toy Factory) Here's a pic of NZ earthquake collapse: denverpost.slideshowpro.com/albums/001/496/album-200434/cache/christchurch37.sJPG_950_2000_0_75_0_50_50.sJPG?1358002337 -looks like a lot of crushed stuff, nothing blown up.

 

[Jbui]

Only if it is in the way of the falling steel, and secured to other structures by connections strong enough to bear the weight of the falling steel. This was not the case in the towers. The connections between the walls and floors in the towers were only able to hold about three times the weight of one floor, and had far more than that placed on top of them.

That presumption does not count the crushed core structure. Of course some floors might collapse in building like WTC 1&2 if something was dropped on the floors, but then the core structure should still stay in place. Instead that part was blown into pieces as well

The Marriot was of a typical lattice construction, with columns spread across the entire width of the structure and rather solid griders connecting them and supporting the weight of the floors. Each individual floor was, thus, far stronger than several floors of the towers.

The floors of the towers did not fail as rapidly as the weight of the floors above could pile up. Thus, all of that free-falling debris had to go somewhere. If the floors could not get out of the way fast enough, some of the debris had to spread outward. This is kind of grade-school science. Why are you quibbling about it?

I would like to see some of this on the videos of the event. All I see on the videos are wall ejecting horizontally.